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What If A Christmas Classic Could Reframe 1776 - with Joel Smallbone
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A Revolutionary War story with drumlines, family fracture, and a Christmas heartbeat sounds like a gamble, but that’s exactly why we wanted to talk about it. We sit down with Joel Smallbone from For King and Country to unpack Drummer Boy, a bold new Angel Studios film that leans into big music, big emotion, and a big moment in American history.
Joel walks us through how “The Little Drummer Boy” followed his band for years, then slowly turned into an idea that could carry an entire feature film. We get into the creative risk of making a period piece musical without losing the weight of the story, what it’s like collaborating with seasoned actors, and why music can say things dialogue simply cannot. If you’ve been searching for a family-friendly movie with strong production quality and a pro-faith, pro-America tone, this conversation gives you real context before you buy tickets.
We also talk honestly about the hard parts of telling Founding era stories today, including how Drummer Boy addresses slavery without turning the entire narrative into a cheap shot at the Founders. Then we zoom out to the practical side: opening weekend matters, theaters matter, and turnout determines whether movies like this stick around through the Christmas season.
Check out Drummer Boy, share this with a friend who loves history and great music, and if you enjoy the show, subscribe and leave a review so more people can find it.
Why Entertainment Shapes Culture
Rick GreenThis is the intersection of faith and culture, the wall builder Show, taking all the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective. Rick Green here with David Barton and Tim Barton, websites wallbuilders.Show and wallbuilders.com. That may be the fastest intro I've ever done. All right, guys, we always talk about the different areas of the culture. Usually people would say government political. We'd probably focus on that more than anything else. But we also love entertainment, and we know that that has a huge influence on the culture and the direction that it goes. And we're always excited when there's a movie we can recommend to folks. And when it's done, uh, you know, big budget and uh quality actors and all that good stuff. And fortunately, uh Angel Studios has another good one coming out. What a year for those guys. Uh, it's been incredible. But it's called Drummer Boy. And uh Joel Spawbold will be with us a little later in the program to talk about it. It's gonna be pretty cool, guys.
Tim BartonNow, for those that might not know that name right away, that that's that's the guy from King for King and Country. Uh the kind of kind of a big deal. Uh for those that might not remember for King and Country just by title, and I'm saying that knowing that probably most people do. But songs like God only knows, What if I told you, there, there's a whole slew of them. And I'm saying that knowing that uh this is probably helping my Dad more than anybody else right now, uh, these are a big deal. Uh, but Rig, to your point, the fact that this year we've been able to see uh the movie A Great Awakening, we've seen Young Washington, and even though, again, as history nerds, we can look and go, man, you know, I wish, you know, these one or two moments, I wish they would have done something different. Overall, in those movies, uh, I mean, that that's just us being hyper sensitive or critical because that's our field of expertise. Overall, these movies are phenomenal. They are so positive, pro-America, pro-God, uh, helping reconnect people with some of the great noted leaders and heroes in America's story. And now there's another one. And just from the preview, now, Rick, I know you got to watch this last night. My Dad and I, we've been sent a link. We haven't got to see it yet. So we're coming into this a little bit blind. So I'm very curious. Uh, in the interview, uh, the question do y'all get into because that will help us know more about it. We are hoping to be able to watch that maybe uh later this week. But all of that to say, just from the preview, it looks like it's gonna be some kind of like Hamilton feel, uh, a musical telling the story of America. But it looks it honestly, it looks like maybe Hamilton meets the Patriot on to some extent. Uh, because it's musical, but it's definitely story driven. So I'm excited that there is yet again another movie, and just kudos to Angels.
First Look At Drummer Boy
Tim BartonGreat job, you guys. Another movie that is gonna be pro-God, pro-America, and enjoyable for the family. I am so excited about this.
Rick GreenAnd set in a in a revolutionary period. Like you said, we got we got a great awakening, we got uh young Washington. Uh, just to get to see some of these period kind of, you know, of course, the period that we all love so much, the revolutionary period, um, for for Wallbuilders's audience, this is gonna be of high interest. So this is this is definitely a a uh you know a fictional account. Uh it's set in the time and kind of what we might call faction in terms of it being around uh a lot of of actual things in history, but then fictional characters and and and stories. And uh and of course David, I mean, you know, good entertainment that highlights uh some of the things from the revolutionary period has to be appealing to you as well, I would think.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah. And you know, to go to Tim's point too, we look at movies like this because as nerds we say, oh, that's wrong, because when he said that said this before, the comma came after the second word rather than the third word. I mean, the kind of stuff we we notice often is not what changes the tone of the movie at all. And so there's so many good movies that that we really do thoroughly recommend, and and we kind of see things say, well, you know, that I mean, nobody knows that. It doesn't change the tone of the story. Uh going for historic accuracy, if we were writing it down and footnoting everything, we would change a couple of things. But man, the tone, and it is so nice to see so many good tone movies coming out. And you know, we're the 250th, and we've already seen a tone change in America anyway. A lot more patriotism, a lot more flags. I've never seen so many athletes in all my life talking about Jesus after games and all the sports. I mean, there's something special going on in America right now, and I think that this is just part of it. And and we've looked back and we've seen in previous generations where that as that gener, you know, back in the greatest generation, World War II, so many wholesome movies, patriotic movies, love God, love country movies, and it's kind of like we're coming back into another time like that with yet another movie that's worth watching just because of the tone and feel that it has.
Rick GreenYeah, I think you said it, Tim. It's kind of a it's got a little bit of a Hamilton feel. I think I think uh uh Joel's uh clip that he requ that he shows at the beginning of the movie before the movie actually starts, and he says, I think it's Hamilton, great greatest showman and something else. Anyway, it's like a combination of of these things. So it's fun, it's fun to watch. And of course, you know, like you said, for King and Country, I mean the music you know is gonna be good and sound good. Uh, you know, the tricky part is putting all that into the into the story as well. So it's gonna be fun to hear what he has to say about that. It's sort of how the how the movie came about, and especially here in the 250s. Stay with us, folks. Jill Smallbone, our guest, we'll be right back on the Wild Builder show.
How To Share The Show
Rick GreenHey friends, Rick Green for the Wild Builder show. Encouraging you to share the program with friends and family and listen to it on the podcasts that are out there. There's so many options out there for you to listen to in the car or from home or while you're working in them. You've got Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, iHeartRadio, Castbox. I mean, there's so many options, and we just want to make sure you know we've worked hard to get it out there and make it available for you on all those different apps. Everybody's got their favorite app, so choose your particular app. And if it's not on there yet, email us, radio at wobbleboulders.com, and let us know about your favorite podcast app, and we'll make sure Wobblers Radio is listed there. But you can listen and most importantly, share it with your friends and family. That's how the program grows. That's how we get more truth in the hands of as many people as possible. And then, of course, wobbleers.Show, super easy place uh to find all of those podcast apps and to just download right there from that website as well as be able to share it with your friends and family. So check it out today, wobblers.Show, or just go directly to your favorite podcast app, listen to the WallBuilders show, and share it with as many people as you possibly can.
Joel Smallbone Joins The Conversation
Rick GreenWelcome back to the Wobbleer show. Thanks for staying with us. Super excited to have Joel Smallbone with us. We're talking about a new movie coming out uh soon for Christmas, and it's amazing. It's called Drummer Boy. And uh I think the way, I think the way you put it is best. It's basically uh the greatest showman combined with the Patriot, combined with you mentioned one other in your in your Bride and Prejudice.
SPEAKER_03That was it. That was it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, so good.
Rick GreenHey, first of all, thanks for coming on, man. Appreciate your time today.
SPEAKER_03Hey, thrilled to be with you, Rick. I was just telling you off air, I'm I'm literally in Burbank, which is I sound like a real movie maker here. Just did a a screening from Alora Harden, who plays our mom in the film. You might know her. She's Jan Levinson in The Office. And yeah, so she was just elated. So I'm sort of on cloud nine. She loved the film, she sings in the film. Uh, yeah, very special.
Rick GreenVery special moment I that's man, the music is off the charts. So, of course, expect no less from you. Uh, but I I that that was my only complaint. I was like, I want more music. I mean, it was it was really good. The even the you know, the dance scenes in the in the opening, and um, yeah, man. So I let's back up though. So, what what was why drummer boy? Like, why why revolutionary period, the combination with Christmas? I mean, how did this all come together?
SPEAKER_03You know what's crazy, Rick? You have those moments where like do you write life or does life write you? You know, and I and I it's the same with this. Does does the music write you, or do you write the music? Does the movie write you, or do you write the movie? And I just look at this film and I'm like, from the beginning of for King Country, the band I'm in, this song The Little Drummer Boy, the Christmas classic, has just followed us around. Uh it's been such a defining song for us. We did our own rendition, we put a bunch of drums on it. I played it on national television. I have TSA agents go, not you're from for King Country, like you're the drummer boy guy, right? You know? And and then simultaneously I love storytelling. I've you know played my Dad in the film Unsung Hero and part of Young Washington, and and so I love this medium of uh storytelling. I also, you know, I grew up in uh Franklin, Tennessee, and there were some massive battles in America fought in Franklin, Tennessee. And a lot of these uh battle uh wars from a couple hundred years ago, they communicated through drum signals to spur each other on, you know, to call charge or retreat. And so again, you look at this, this this sort of life is writing our story. You've got this band that's called For King and Country, which is sort of a British mantra, you've got this song Drummer Boy, you've got this idea of two brothers ending up on opposite sides of the battlefield, and then I'm a musician. And so it's like, what if you take all of these pieces? We've been working on it for almost eight years. So you take all of these pieces and put them together, and not to mention, it's the 250-year anniversary of this great country. Yeah. So here we are. Here we are.
Rick GreenI I I gotta tell you, man, my my my son Reagan was uh came over last night to to watch it with me and and uh screen it. And the and I know it was a couple times when uh oh I forget the guy that played the the guy that plays uh uh essentially your nemesis, potentially your father-in-law in the movie, but that yeah, Bal plays Balfor. Uh I remember him as Deacon from uh from Nashville. That's right. Yeah, and and and other stuff, but uh a couple times there in that in the one of those opening scenes when he says uh for king and country, Reagan's like slapping me, you know, he's like, ah, did you catch that death? Ah, see what they did there? Yeah, so uh so so that was the other cool thing. I mean, you had some big names in this. Uh uh, Ian, uh the the players, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, uh you had so you had you had Yoan Griffin, who William Wilberforce in uh uh Amazing Grace, he was also Mr. Fantastic in the original Fantastic. That's right. Um King Arthur, you had uh Ian Glenn from Game of Thrones and Downton Harry. Some incredible actors came along for the ride.
Rick GreenYou had to feel a little bit like uh kid in the candy store. I mean, as much as you love acting as good as you are at it. I mean, you had some you were you were dealing with some some uh
Building The Story And Cast
Rick Greennext level uh talent here.
SPEAKER_03They were all very kind because, you know, I'm a musician, that's my day job, but I love the medium of acting. And you know, actors can be very selfish, uh, as musicians can be, uh, but they were so kind and collaborative, you know. These these and you mentioned Charles Eston from Outer Banks in Nashville. Like the guy has his not 10,000 eyes, it has hundreds. I mean, he was on whose line is it anyway? You know, like and and his ability to improv and understand motivation was magnificent. And then you had Ian Glenn, just the empathy in his eyes. It's like it was just I was really honored to be part uh to bring this story to life with such incredible humans and actors, yeah.
Rick GreenYeah, yeah. And and uh yeah, like you said, I mean, some of them some of us are are are we trying to get to 10,000 hours in Gladwell's deal. Some of these guys 100,000 hours, you're right on. Um, the kid that plays your your brother in the movie, I didn't know anything about him. Uh he was phenomenal. I mean, yeah, he y'all had that that was that was incredible.
SPEAKER_03He's an up and comer. He's actually on a BBC Show called Crookhaven. And um it was interesting. He came in to to you know, because I co-directed it as well, which is fascinating. So you you do you're meeting all these actors and they're auditioning for it. And he came in, he did the audition amongst some other really talented young men. And um you know, I directed him a bit and then I got in a scene with him, and I actually did this sort of there's this pivotal argument that sort of forces them to other sides of the battlefield at the dinner table. Yeah. And I did the scene, and I went away, and I was like, I really love him, but he'd never played a drum in his life. No way. Come on. And uh and I was so proud of Gary P. Tyler, who's our band leader. He's a drum, he's a drum major, like a graduated, he's got this is he's he's uh he's uh excellent. And over three weeks we basically built the drummer boy. Uh we we he just and Lucas worked so hard. I was in the a hotel room next to him in Ireland, and you can hear him each night pull up the snare drum, and he would just And so he really earned it, Rick, and and and um you know it was very meta too because my brother's the drummer boy Luke in real life, who I'm in a band with, and the this actor's name was Lucas. So you had the real life drummer boy with Luke, and then the the drummer boy uh with Lucas, yeah.
Rick GreenI I I was gonna ask you about Luke and and the uh the bit at the end after the movie. Is that gonna play in theaters as well? Will you have that message at the very end? It will. Nice. Okay.
SPEAKER_03We just we just um I'm glad you asked that because uh this film is a gift to America for us. You know, we are immigrants to this great country. I love this country. A married American. Lucas married an American created four half American children, you know. We've dedicated our lives to singing you know the stories of God and the stories of life to primarily America. And and uh so to have this opportunity on the 250th anniversary to s to share a story of forgiveness and of freedom. Yeah, um at a very pivotal point, you know, it's not wasted on me that the film comes out on November 6th and you've got these midterm elections just a couple days before. And yeah, um I think we've all got a lot to look at. And and so I'm I'm really proud. I'm really proud to put it in cinemas, so much so that I'm excited to tell you we do you know what
Opening Weekend Plan And Ticket Deal
SPEAKER_03a BOGO is? Are you familiar with this technology? No, uh I didn't know what it is either. If the ladies are listening, evidently my wife said, Oh no, we we know this from Pinterest. BOGO is buy one, get one. Oh, okay. That's the acronym. So I got together with Luke in the the studio last week and I said, guys, what if what if we offer America the first gift of Christmas? What if, you know, because everyone switches gears right after Halloween, you know, everyone, you know, onto Christmas. But what if for the opening weekend of the film, November 6th, November 7th, and November 8th, for 72 hours, we offer the audience if you buy a ticket, you get you can get uh you can bring a family member or a friend for free. And they were like, we love that. So I'm excited to tell you that today. How do you do that though? Do you go to Y'all's website? Well, I was gonna say, thank you for asking. Yeah, yeah. Angel the the distributor is Angel. So go to angel.com forward slash drummerboy.
Rick GreenAngel.com forward slash drummerboy, and so then I'll be able to find which theaters it's gonna be in and everything.
SPEAKER_03And then and the keyword, and the keyword is gift. So you angel.com forward slash drummerboy, keyword gift, and then you just pick your cinema, grab your ticket, and you get a second one for free.
Rick GreenAnd and we stress this all the all the time when when we have guests on like this with a new movie coming out. Opening weekend is critical. We need everybody to plan to go that weekend.
SPEAKER_03If you're gonna go, I beg of you, yes, please go. Because the math is, Rick, basically the way it works is in order for this to stay in in cinemas till Christmas, we need a million people to Show up in 72 hours. Nice. Okay. That's the math.
Rick GreenOkay, 72. So that needs to be your opening weekend Friday night, the 6th, Saturday night, folks. Plan your date night. Uh, and actually, don't spot on, uh, most of our audience is very politically active and involved. So they're gonna be worn out November 3rd. They're gonna need something cool to do that weekend, right? A good night's relaxing.
SPEAKER_03Celebrate freedom. If you want to celebrate forgiveness, you want to celebrate the 200, the capstone project of the the 250th anniversary of this country, come see Drummer Boy in the theaters.
Rick GreenI love it. November 6th and 7th is opening weekend. Angel.com forward slash drummerboy to find theaters near you, do the buy one, get one. Um, last thing before I let you go, I know what we're going over and you've had a long day of interviews, but creatively, I this is where my mind goes. What a gamble to do. Both have to do, you know, revolutionary period, and you got all the costumes and all that kind of stuff. New stories. Um, and then the music on top of it. I mean, to do this as a musical and to have those scenes. Uh by the way, I love the hint at the beginning, even in the opening scenes, that it's going to be a musical, like just the the beats and the rhythm. Move the way you guys moved with the that was that was magic. That was perfect. But bro, you had to be thinking, okay, we could gamble two of the three here. You know, we could we could do news story, revolutionary period, but we're gonna do music too. I I mean, to pull all that together and I mean, like I said, I know you've done other stuff, but this was a huge leap forward and you did it. But I I mean it works and I love it. But I I'm just curious your mindset. How did you get peace to know we're gonna go for all that?
SPEAKER_03It is make no mistake, it's the most audacious project I've ever been a part of. It is it's the most expensive. I've spent the most creative time and investment on it ever. I have I spent four months in Ireland this year. You know, like I have I have never worked harder at a project in my whole life. And it's because I mean I love I I feel like we gotta we gotta take God-sized, you know, leaps. I really believe that. Like I think you've got to if you have faith, nothing good uh great happened by just playing it safe. And so, yes, you are right, it's three of three. But I I believe in music, I love music, I believe it can express something that speaking can't. And so, yeah, look, it's an hour and 20 minutes of live action. There's about 30 minutes of music, like you said, but it's predominantly a live action film. But I love music and I I I love this country, and um, I love uh, you know, telling sort of these stories that are sort of I think really important for this time. So yeah, let's see, man. You can call me in a couple weeks and talk me off the ledge. Uh we'll see how we get through. I love it. I love it. Angel.com forward slash drummer boy. And keyword gift, keyword gift.
Rick GreenRemember that. And keyword gift to do the to do the bO go. Now I learned today something. Learn something today. Bogo. Bogo. Um uh it will there be kind of like with Grady Showman, like that's still on my favorites playlist of uh uh on Spotify. Will you guys do that too? Will you release it as a musical track or a musical uh CD or whatever?
SPEAKER_03The same day as the film releases. Okay, cool. The soundtrack will be everywhere you would like to find it.
Rick GreenCool, cool, cool. Uh Joel, appreciate you, man. God bless you. Keep up the great work. Looking forward to a big weekend next weekend. Thank you, buddy.
SPEAKER_03Hey, thank you for taking the time and thank you for watching the film.
Rick GreenUh, I meant so much to me. Love it. Hey, God bless you, man. Appreciate it. Hey, everybody, stay with me. We'll be right back after the break with David and Tim Barton.
New Book On Declaration Signers
Tim BartonOkay, we want to let you know about a new product we have here at WallBuilders called Lives, Fortunes, and Sacred Honor, The Signers of the Declaration. Like most Americans, you might be someone that you recognize some of the names of the Founding Fathers, but do you know their story? We want to help remedy that. My Dad and I have written biographies on all 56 signers of the Declaration to help reintroduce people to the men who literally signed their names on the line for the sake of the nation. And when they did this, they knew that they were essentially signing their death warrants. They were risking everything for the hope that they might be able to purchase freedom for the rising generation with their lives, their fortunes, and sacred honors. In spite of the hardship that every one of them endured, none of them recant or backed away. Now, if you don't know their story, you can get to know all 56 of them. Go to wallbuilders.com and look for the book Lives, Fortunes, and Sacred Honor, the signers of the Declaration.
Movie Review And Founding Era Questions
Rick GreenWelcome back to the WallBuilder show. Thanks for staying with us. Uh, I am back with David and Tim now. Guys, I didn't tell him, didn't tell him you hadn't seen it yet, and that you had a screener, and therefore you won't be two of the movie tickets that we sell on opening weekend, uh, because you got the screener. So maybe uh I guess take the rest of the family now. I don't know, but uh, I'm gonna see if I can take all the scholars, be kind of fun.
Tim BartonRick, I would say the caveat though is I saw the screener for a great awakening and I still went and saw the theater because I loved it that much. So actually, I might see the screener and be like, nope, I'm buying four tickets uh for myself and I'm gonna you know, give them support it. So I I do love the idea of being able to support a good film. Now, Rick, we talked a little bit about this before the interview where you were giving us a little bit of breakdown because you have seen it, and you know, kind of like we mentioned a little bit before talking to Joel, is there for us, there are some things we look at and we go, man, you know, I wish I wish we would have cleaned up this a little bit. And Dad, as you acknowledge, as long as somebody gets the tone right, we don't necessarily mind a couple of details being wrong where it sometimes it bothered me, like when with the movie A Great Awakening, when late in life, Franklin is talking to Whitfield, it's 1770, right before Franklin goes over to Europe and Whitfield's about to die. And Franklin tells Whitfield, well, I'm a deist. And that bothered me so much because you read Franklin's autobiography and he says he was a deist when he was 15, and then he left he left that behind. He wasn't a deist after 15. And the reason it bothered me is because it's playing a little bit into the cultural narrative that the founding fathers are largely atheist, agnostics, and deists. But of course, in the movie A Great Awakening, there was this buildup and this climax. And when the constitutional invention is falling apart, Franklin has this reminiscent recollection of. Man, I Whitfield's been telling me we need God, and I'm gonna I'm gonna fully step into that now. So it was a great moment, like theatrical moment for the movie, but it bothered me a little bit. It was playing just a little bit into kind of the cultural narrative. Um, with that being said, Rick, you were acknowledging that there might be one or two moments that we look at in this movie and go, man, I wish they would have, you know, done at a just slightly different. And again, largely probably because of some of the cultural context. But as you acknowledge overall, phenomenal movie. So will you give us a little bit of your movie review? Overall recommendation is already there, but what's what's your review of this?
Rick GreenYeah, definitely overall recommendation. Absolutely go see it, support these guys, and I I know you'll enjoy it. Uh, the music is outstanding, the story is really cool. Uh, there's a couple of scenes, guys, where normally, I'm just big butt here. Normally, when the non-Hollywood uh studios try to produce a dramatic moment, it doesn't work. For whatever reason, most of these non-Hollywood studios, for whatever reason, just don't have the same, I don't know, director's ability or whatever to keep a powerful dramatic moment from coming across cheesy. And and I I did think a Great Awakening did a good job of having some of those powerful moments and it not being cheesy. Um, but bottom line is there's some awesome scenes in this movie where they pull that off. And and there's a drummer boy scene. I don't want to give it away, that that's one of the climactic moments that that they did amazing on. And it's it's one of those goosebumps, you know, tear-up uh moments. So I was really proud of them on how they did that. I think the thing that bothered me most, and and it is always the elephant in the room when you do a Founding Fathers era movie, the slavery issue, and they don't shy away from it, man. They hit it, they hit it head on. They even uh have a couple of slaves uh that are learn learning to read, and they're they're uh literally reading the words of the declaration, and they even talk about the um, you know, the the the the uh uh irony of Jefferson uh and and him writing those words. And but they don't what they didn't do was lambass the founders. They did not put Jefferson in a negative light. They did not uh I I thought they balanced that mostly well. I guess for me it was just they seemed like a maybe too much on the slavery thing because there's so much more about the founding error. But I realized that is the topic, you can't shy away from it. So they didn't run from it. Uh it's in the background a lot, and then there's some there are some scenes that are are are are powerful and and make you you know thankful that that our nation moved away from that for sure. Uh, but man, I'm telling you, the acting quality is way above what you normally get in uh in movies from non-Hollywood producers. Uh the production quality, phenomenal. Uh the the period costume stuff is great. I I'm gonna be really curious to see what y'all think after you see that part of it. Um and then the music, like I said, just mixing all that. And as I said to Joel, like, wow, the guts to take off you to try all three of those uh when you're not a Hollywood studio, uh that was a gutsy move. And and I think it I think it pays off. So yeah, there's my two-minute review, guys.
Tim BartonI I I love it, and I really am excited to see this. And I will still go see in the theater because I want to give a message to Hollywood that this is the kind we want. We want more movies that are pro-America, that are pro-founding fathers, that are pro-God. And and Rick, you know, even thinking about the balance of of the the slaves reading the Declaration and them weighing that there, we recognize that the promises of the Declaration were not fully fulfilled in all the founders' lifetime. But they started the political movement that put slavery on the road and on the path to extinction, which is incredible. But most producers have no idea that there was an original draft of the declaration and that Jefferson's original draft, the longest grievance, was actually against the slave trade, against slavery, arguing for the humanity of all that were enslaved. And it would just be really fun if at some point a producer found that and was like, guys, this is incredible. We need to include it. Anyway, I am definitely gonna go see it. Uh, I'm sure uh Dad, you and mom, probably the whole family. We'll probably all go as a family together uh and go see it to support this. And I, Rick, I'm very excited to see the greatest showman meets the patriot. I'm in it. That's right. I'm in it. That's right.
Rick GreenI love it. Well, I wish we weren't out of time, David, because I'd love for uh for you to comment on this, but we're out of time. But the uh the other part of this is they highlight the struggle between the you know, brothers and and the fact that, you know, if you were an America in 1776, you were an Englishman, and and now families were split, Tories and Whigs and communities were split, and there was, you know, it was difficult. It was difficult, and they and they bring that to light. And uh, but they do make the British have to be the bad guys. I'll just give that away. Okay, out of time for today, folks. Thanks for listening. You've been listening to the Wall Hover show.
