Series Finale Setup

SPEAKER_01 0:07

This is the Intersection of Faith and Culture. It's the Wallbuilder Show taken on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective. Today is the conclusion of our three-part series of Tim Barton interviewing Rob McCoy in not much time. We're going to jump right back in where we left off yesterday. This is Tim Barton and Rob McCoy.

Staying Joyful Under Attacks

SPEAKER_00 0:28

And we can't just so kind of order and direct, we're only going to do this. And it's like, bro, your sheep are literally falling off the cliff. They're drowning in that pit in the mire. And you're like, well, I can only do this. You need to wake up and recognize what's going on. Now, again, you said it way more graciously at the beginning. Um, but but I definitely see that. And I'm gonna ask you a question on your graciousness because um you have had to go through the fire the last year of navigating the criticisms of all kinds of voices. Um, your friends at turning points, uh, Erica, uh, your son, chief of staff, all the people that you know and love and yourself have been raked over the coals, have been accused of all kinds of vile, evil things by demonic, uh, I don't know if I'm gonna say uh possessed or impressed, but it's demonic attacks, regardless of what voice it's coming from. How have you navigated that? Um, and and how are you navigating that right now?

SPEAKER_02 1:33

To the best of my ability, based on on um the the Beatitudes, it counted all joy, for great is your reward, not on this earth, but in heaven. And and that, you know, when they revile you and say all kinds of evil about you, uh, and and that it's the nature of the beast. We're we're you know, it's it's what J.R.R. Tolkien called the slow defeat. You know, he witnessed what three of his five best friends uh from college die in World War I and tried to make sense of it, and then of course did you know the Lord of the Rings. And and you look at the the Elvins in Middle Earth, it it's that they're not gonna win, they're staving off evil and they'll win a battle, but evil doesn't stop marching, it just keeps going. And until until God, you know, there's a new heaven and a new earth, and and dependent on whatever eschatology that you subscribe to, and until that day, we're gonna be contending with evil on this earth. And and you know, one of the things Charlie and I will I would say what when I was with him is the thing I learned, Charlie, especially being on the city council, is people aren't the enemy, they're the opportunity. And and you you in you you you you just you try to love them and and you're honest with them, but you don't the anger of man does not accomplish the righteousness of God. And and there are times, just like you, Tim, I I I do get upset and I and I I'm livid at some of these pastors, and I'm I'm livid at the lies and the and the people making money, you know, on on attacking Charlie's widow and and uh his and my son and he attacked me. I mean, they they went after my dad, which was it and I didn't see it. Somebody told me that they attacked my father, who who was he's been dead for what, 10, 11 years now, and the last 15 years of his life he had Alzheimer's. And when he retired from the Navy, he I was nine. And apparently I've been educated by my father on Navy PsyOps. And and I I don't even I mean, that's just insane. But that's the desperation to make money. And and I I I realize, you know, it's it's I I I pray that they enjoy all the money on this earth because in the next life they're gonna have hell to pay if they don't repent. And and it's just it it it defines itself over time, you know. It the darker it gets, the the more the light shines. And then the other thing is this is a privilege. And and and we're called into it, and we're to love the unlovable. Um and and I think it was um at one of the American Renewal projects, uh I'm trying

Bonhoeffer And Courageous Witness

SPEAKER_02 4:10

to remember the pastor's name, but anyways, talking about Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Martin Niemoller. So Dietrich Bonhoeffer in World War II, you know, stood in opposition to Hitler, and it and it was one of the last directives of Hitler was was to hang Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Before he shot, you know, Ava Braun and then shot himself in the bunker as as Germany was falling. He wanted to make sure that Dietrich Bonhoeffer was dead. Because that that German minister stood in opposition even when the entire church folded, and and this was the hotbed of the Reformation. And then, what, 40 years later, longer than that, it's responsible for the death of 70 million people worldwide and six and a half million Jews gassed and incinerated. And and the man that was moved by him was actually a Hitler sympathizer who had been a um a submarine captain in World War I and sided with Hitler. But then when he saw Dietrich Bonhoeffer's life, he changed. And that was Martin Niemoler. And Martin Niemoller would live after World War II, and he would, he would go on to be very effective. And Charlie and I saw this during COVID that when we stood in defiance and Charlie stood with us as the turning point when we defied the governor and kept the churches open, and we ended up being right on every issue, by the way. And that that just because I knew, you know, that the the governor has a lot of power, but he can't say that the church is not essential. That that violates the first 16 words of the First Amendment. I'm sorry, governor, but you don't have that authority. And and so, you know, when they tried to fine us into oblivion and create medical apartheid and

COVID Church Closures And Romans 13

SPEAKER_02 5:44

take everyone's job because they wouldn't take an experimental mRNA injection, which we now see as is miserably detrimental in killing people, uh pastors called and said, You're in violation of Romans 13. You're not submitting to authority. And my response to them was gentle. At first it wasn't. But but but then I I realized they don't get it. And I say and it was it wasn't until I read Jonathan Mayhew, who did the expository study on Romans 13, because he was getting it before the War of Independence. He he was dead before that war started.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

But they were saying you can't go against King George, it violates Romans 13. He goes, wait a minute, it says that God appoints all positions of authority and and and we're to submit to those authorities, but and they're there for our good. And he goes on to say, i if they're not doing good, they're not the authority. It it's not unlimited submission to tyranny. They have a responsibility. And and and I and I said, fellas, you're the ones in violation because they're they're they're shuttering they're they're closing schools for and and the and the the the the death rate for children is point zero zero zero two percent chance of death. And they're shuttering their schools, they're quarantining the abused with their abusers, they're shutting down sixty five percent of the small businesses. We we need to speak on behalf of our neighbors who we love more than ourselves. And and they were scared, but I watched a number of them, and so did Charlie, come through and realize, man, we were on the wrong side of this, like Niemoler did. Many of them, uh not many, some of them joined us in the midst of it, and and the rest came later, and we said you're welcome to come. But today, if you're still out there and and you're you're still buying into all the jargon and you're you haven't changed, and and you you are submitting to this this tyranny and I you're revealing yourself for who you are, and your church is dwindling while there's a revival happening. So you know, just love them, speak the truth in love, speak the truth and encourage people.

When Sheep Need A New Shepherd

SPEAKER_02 7:49

Well, why are you still there? Why are you at that church? Your pastor doesn't talk on these topics, doesn't invoke anything pertinent to what we're dealing with, and you're still there. Why? Well, you know, we've been here for okay, so you're the problem. Because he he thinks he's shepherding because he's got sheep following him. But he actually should be just going on a long, lonely walk, and you should be finding a place where you're you're properly fed and cared for and encouraged and challenged. And so I think America's waking up.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

Quick interruption, everybody, gotta take one break today. Stay with us. You're listening to the Wall Builder Show.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

Okay, we want to let you know about a new product we have here at Wallbuilders called Lives, Fortunes, and Sacred Honor, the Signers of the Declaration. Like most Americans, you might be someone that you recognize some of the names of the Founding Fathers, but do you know their story? We want to help remedy that. My dad and I have written biographies on all 56 signers of the Declaration to help re-introduce people to the men who literally signed their names on the line for the sake of the nation. And when they did this, they knew that they were essentially signing their death warrants. They were risking everything for the hope that they might be able to purchase

A New Network For Pastors

SPEAKER_00 9:10

freedom for the rising generation with their lives, their fortunes, and sacred honors. In spite of the hardship that every one of them endured, none of them recanded or backed away. Now, if you don't know their story, you can get to know all 56 of them. Go to wallbuilders.com and look for the book Lives, Fortunes, and Sacred Honor, the signers of the Declaration.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Welcome back to the Wall Builder Show. Thanks for staying with us. Jumping right back in with Tim Barton and Rob McCoy.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

Rob, we have the privilege. You you and I travel and speak all the time. Uh, and and I actually am encouraged in the midst of being frustrated at times. Uh, I'm I'm actually very encouraged. It's it's very evident to me that God is on the move all over this nation. I think there are more and more pastors that are waking up. Uh, and you know, some of them, it's like in my mind, I'm like, you should have been with us from the beginning, but I'm glad you're here now. You know, we'll take late reinforcements. I'm so glad you're here. It's very evident God's on the move. And in the midst of that, uh, I think this is part of one of the reasons maybe that you've started a pastors network as well. Uh, can you tell us some about that? And maybe if there's pastors or ministry leaders that are listening, uh if they want to be part of that, how does that work?

SPEAKER_02 10:25

Thanks, Tim. That's very gracious of you. I um, well, first of all, I just wanted to say not only do we talk about Bonhoeffer and Niemoler, but the Muhlenbergs. I mean, you're the one who's been teaching that story all over the country with the two brothers, and and and and pastors will come around. So the the purpose of what we call the American Pastors Guild, APG, uh, this this birds in my mind when uh Charlie was invited to go to the Lincoln Fellowship at Claremont. And and this is a a man who is unbelievably busy. His life is scheduled, well, it was scheduled in half-hour increments. I mean, he was busy. And I I forget how long the fellowship was, but the training to become a fellow at the Lincoln Institute, I think it was seven days, and you're sitting through lectures and classes, and you're you take copious notes and you're you're uh tested on the topics, and then at the completion of it, you're invited after you pass this, you're invited to be a fellow of the Lincoln Institute, which is an enormous honor, one that Charlie cherished. And and I also saw a change in him as a result of that Lincoln fellowship. So it it it clicked in my mind because when we would do like Pastors and Pews and the American Renewal Project, and we did TPUSA Faith with the pastors' conferences, I would say half the room was filled with parachurch um ministries ordained maybe through the mail, but they weren't shepherding uh congregations. And they they would they they're just they didn't represent the church worldwide. They were Christians, they had ministries, but they they they weren't weakly discipling uh a congregation. And those are the ones we we tried to wanted to reach. If you disciple the pastors, they'll disciple the congregation. And then we also started to see, at least I did, that it it became kind of um an opportunity for folks to pitch their ministries to their pastors, and and that's pastors are just tired of that. So I presented to Charlie early on, especially after Lincoln Shift, I said, I think this is the direction we should we should go. And I presented uh what I called the Pastors Guild, and now we've called it the American Pastors Guild. He liked it, and I actually presented it to him and also to uh another very important person at Turning Point who would be the one to implement it. And and I don't know if they were going in that direction, but then Charlie died, and and I saw that turning point has kind of taken a different direction, and I thought, well, then then I'll implement it. And so

Inside The American Pastors Guild

SPEAKER_02 13:01

the American Pastors Guild is real simple. Uh, you have to be a pastor of a fellowship in good standing. There has to be people attending your church and you're in good standing. You can also be an associate minister under a pastor's teaching where you're serving a fellowship, but you'll have a different level of membership. It's a dues-paying membership because uh the administration of it goes through the dues that you're we're going to make sure that that you're in good standing. We're gonna follow up on that. And the pastors that participate, you you you were invited to come to um a seven-day intensive. And the mission statement of the American Pastors Guild is real simple: equipping America's pastors to contend with the greatest enemies of the church and of the nation. So you're gonna be discipled on Islam and the danger it is to Christendom. You're gonna learn about secular progressivism and be discipled on how to protect the congregation and the nation from what it's doing uh to drive the culture away from Christ. Uh, we're we're gonna go through all kinds of stuff like this, and then uh we're gonna include a trip to Israel. Now, you can be replacement theology, but you're gonna realize and understand that they're a sovereign nation, 1948, very clear, their borders were invaded on October 7th. You're gonna come away from that trip as a part of being invited into the guild to agree that they're a sovereign nation and and you will not participate in Jew hatred, which is running rampant right now. It's reminiscent of Nazi Germany in 1938. So that this is this is what we do. And at the conclusion of it, after they take the tests and and they've done well and they're not contrary and they've been moved by what they've learned. Now, this is post-denominational, meaning we don't care about the tertiary theological issues. It's basically Nicene Creed. So if if you're pre-trib, post-trib, all trib, whatever, it doesn't matter. Um and it because oh, you know, we're not dealing with any of that. We're all coming together for the sole purpose of being equipped to contend with the greatest enemies of the church in the nation. So it doesn't matter if you're swinging from the chandelier charismatic or a five-point Calvinist. And and it's gonna, people are gonna allow to see the manifold beauty of the body of Christ. It's gonna build relationships, and there'll be relationships that have been will have been built as a result of the one um national meeting that you're required to attend every year uh as a dues-paying member. So when you're invited into the guild, it's a private organization, it's not open to the public. Uh at the national meeting, you'll you'll be exposed to some of the greatest speakers in America, the intensive that you'll go through, it'll be done in a lovely place, and you'll hear from the best uh the best educators on each of those topics and speakers. And and then when you come together every year, you're gonna have a chance for breakout sessions and other things. And when you're done, you're gonna take it back and and equip your congregation. And no one's gonna no one's gonna spam you, no one's gonna ask you for anything. Um, and and and it's not parachurch ministries that are coming up giving you their book and wanting you to sell it and get a speaking gig. No, you come in, you get equipped, and you come back every year and you get to meet the new graduating class of of pastors who've been invited in the American Pastors Guild. You get to sponsor pastor every year. So it's like, you know, minimum yearly dues of administration. You sponsor a pastor every year, and and then every year you get to come and celebrate with it and be a part of it. And it'll go on for years. And it's gonna be slow nickel instead of fast time, meaning we'll probably start with a hundred pastors and then next year 200 and then 400. It's kind of like, do you want me to give you, you know, the $500,000 or a penny doubled every day for 30 days? Yes. And that's that's what we're doing. We're we're we're doubling the penny and and we're we're gonna reach all of the pastors. And then it's it's kind of like you know, Romans 11 when Paul's referring to the Jews, it it's it's kind of like that with pastors. We're gonna provoke them to jealousy. Like this guild's amazing, and the speakers and the connections that we've made, you need to be a part of it. Well, how do I do that? Well, there's an intensive and you got to go through it, and it's hard, and you graduating class, and you know, not only must you be invited, you need to accept and you got to agree to this. And uh, you know, and and if and if someone makes the news or or they're you know, they disqualify themselves uh scripturally, then then they're removed. I mean, we're we're gonna be a very, very uh private organization that holds to biblical principles, and we're not gonna be a political arm. We won't endorse candidates, uh, but but we're gonna equip them on what a constitutional republic looks like. The pastors will know this. And uh, you know, it that it's it's just a different approach to it. We're discipling the the the shepherds of America. So I I am not a minutiae guy. Um, you know, I Charlie used to say Rob wasn't wrong, he was just early. And and uh, you know, I have a chance to kind of see the landscape and I see things put coming together, but I'm not a minutia guy. You know, I'm I'm maybe maybe a little vision. So when I gave Charlie the idea of of TP USA and and and the the pastors gatherings, I mean that guy was warp speed, he played offense. It was completed and they were sending out invitations within three months. Well, Charlie's gone. I don't, I don't have that kind of a person in my life. And I and the Lord brings into my life Pastor Stephen Martin and uh there was other pastors, but but he's the one who when when I shared the idea, he stuck with it. And and you know, there's not a lot of glamour to it. No one's gonna get rich on this, and nobody's gonna be famous, and we're not gonna have a website other than the one where you sign up. We're not gonna have Instagram and you're not gonna have massive followers, and it is it's not about that. It's about discipling every pastor across the country with the greatest issues, you know, the greatest dangers to the church and to the nation. And I share that with Steven and his entire team, just like Charlie. They put this thing together. The website's remarkable. Uh, I'm not even good at promoting it. You had to ask me to do it. I'm terrible at stuff like this. Thanks for letting me share that.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

But you are creating a band of brothers for pastors uh to be encouraged, to challenge and motivate. And God has given you already so many amazing connections. And I'm saying this for any pastor who's out there, and by the way, if you're watching and you're like, my pastor needs to be part of this, share the podcast, tell your pastor to come sign up for this because they're not gonna get better teaching and training. That the seven-day intensive, the connection relationships, Rob, I really do think that God is gonna use this to shift the direction, the moral and political direction of the nation in the midst of so many things that God is doing. This is gonna be a vital part. So if pastors want to sign up, where do they go to sign up?

SPEAKER_02 19:48

Uh, the the website,

Double Portion Challenge For Generations

SPEAKER_02 19:50

I think you can Google it, American Pastor Guild. And I don't even have the card in front of me, but uh APG.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

Well, I Rob, I want to I want to express how grateful I am for you um to to know you and see how you have navigated um so much of what's gone on. Uh with it not just you being under attack, um, but the people you know and love, uh, Erica, uh your son being under attack, just demonic forces, evil coming against you, your family, your loved ones, to see you continue to reflect. The biblical response uh has been so encouraging. And I am I'm so blessed and honored to know you. I'm so grateful for you. I always finish the conversation asking if there's one piece of advice you could give. Regardless of age or stage, if you can give one piece of advice, what piece of advice would you give to people listening today?

SPEAKER_02 20:50

Well, I will, but before I do that, you you were very complimentary of me. And and people say appreciate what you did in Charlie's life. And I can tell you this in relation to not just Charlie, but your dad and you know, I could live a thousand lifetimes and never repay Charlie for what he did from for my life and for my family, quite frankly. And and I I say the same to Erica. And I say that about your dad and about you, Tim. Um you you know, your your dad has been laboring in the field a long time and he has not wavered at consistency and to see it pass to the next generation. Uh I Charlie used to say, get married early and have kids you can't afford. Um and that and and that's the idea, and and he loved the idea of faith, but this is the advice I'm gonna give you, and I wanna I'm actually gonna talk to the older generation and the younger generation. The Elisha followed Elijah everywhere. And it was getting irritating, and Elijah was kind of a an an angry guy, you know. He was he was he was just he'd call down fire and he was intense. And Elisha was like the mother. Of Israel. He took time with people and he was sweet. And so he's following around this angry guy who's who's older than he is by by quite a bit. And finally Elijah's just had enough and he turns to me and says, What do you want from me? And Elisha says something very profound, and this is the advice. Elisha says, I want a double portion. And of course, Eli Elijah says, That's not for me to give. That's that's the Lord. But for all of you out there that are young, that are looking at at folks like Charlie Kirk and and and you say, Man, I wish I could be half the man as him. You know, I used to look at guys like your father and say, I wish I could be half the man as him. Um all my heroes in my life growing up, I wish I could be half the man as him. I want to challenge you young people. You you you will be twice the man. Um because Elisha, when he was on his deathbed and he had the king come in and he said, Shoot an arrow out the east window, and and he did. And he said, Now strike the ground with the remainder of arrows. The guy tapped the ground three or four times, and Elisha, who never got angry, said, Well why didn't you strike it more? And what he was saying is, I'm on my deathbed and I have more passion in my withering body than you do in your youth. And and he he could speak that way because he had asked Elijah for a double portion and lived his life that way. You young people, reach big, go big. That's what Charlie called you to. You were given a modern day martyr. You have the passion maybe I have and Charlie has, but you have something that neither of us possess. You have youth and vitality. Light it up. You older folks, this generation is the target, this young generation's a target, trying to split them in their understanding of of Israel and Jews, and they're they're messing with them. And they're the only generation that likely won't get the American dream because we've we've saddled them with $40 trillion of debt and houses they'll never be able to purchase because it's seven times their annual income. The only thing they can get is pizza on four payments, predatory lending. It's not about your comfort anymore. It's not like Hezekiah said, you know, uh, that's good news that they're gonna come in and take our children off because that's 15 years away. It won't affect me. That's not what we do when we're older. We've been left on this earth for the remainder of time to make sure that those kids can be brought into the promised land. Charlie got them out of slavery. We're gonna bring him into the promised land. We're gonna cross that Jordan. Promised land wasn't heaven. It was where these young people could buy houses, have meaningful employment, plant vineyards, raise families, but of greatest importance. Portons freely worship God. Let's give them the American dream. It's time to fight. Older generation, let's plow the way. Younger generation, you're gonna be twice the men of any of us and women. That's that's your challenge.

SPEAKER_00 24:48

That's so good. And so good. Rob, thank you for taking time today. I know you have a lot going on. I got you up early, but thank you for taking time to be with me today.

SPEAKER_02 24:58

Thanks, Tim. You bless me, brother.

People Are Opportunities Not Enemies

SPEAKER_00 25:00

Now, for everybody watching, I want to encourage something that Pastor Rob said, uh, that I think he was even echoing something that way Charlie saw things is we need to see people as opportunities, not as problems. And uh I think in the midst of our polarizing climate, uh, where it's either our side or their side, right? The good guys versus the bad guys, whichever side you're on, that's the way you view the other side. And and Charlie brilliantly was able to see people's opportunities. And that back, even Pastor Rob, when I was asking, how do you navigate all of the attacks that come against you, right? Raising up your shield of faith to quench all the fiery darts and arrows of the enemy. And even seeing in those moments people as opportunities, you're still counting it all joy. I I would encourage everybody that in the midst of the world we live in, that we remember the Christian ideology, the Christian message that ultimately we're here to win people, not just arguments. Now we're gonna promote ideologies, we're gonna oppose ideologies. Those things really do matter, but we want to make sure that we don't see people as the enemy. It's ideologies. We want to win people for the sake

Three Part Series Closing

SPEAKER_00 26:08

of the kingdom of God. That is part of our goal and our mission. And so so grateful, Pastor Rob McCoy spending time with us and want to remind and encourage us as believers to remember the motivation, what God's called us to do. Thanks for hanging out with us today on the American Story Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

Well, folks, that is the conclusion of Tim Barton's interview with Rob McCoy. That's a three-part series here on the Wallbuilder Show. So you got to go back to the website, wobblers.show, and catch yesterday's program and the day before, or on your podcast app, you can usually scroll back through and catch those as well. Thanks so much for listening. You've been listening to The Wallbuilder Show.