Welcome And Why Scripture Applies

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Welcome to the intersection of Faith and Culture. It's the Wall Bover show taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective. Using all three of those perspectives in an interview Tim Barton had with Rob McCoy, we had the first part of it yesterday. We're going to jump right back in where we picked up yesterday. Here's Tim Barton with Rob McCoy.

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There's no topic in culture the word of God doesn't apply to. And if we would just go through the Bible, we would realize there's clarity on everything that Christians, not like the world, we expect the world to not be godly. We expect the world to be confused about things because they serve a different master. But Christians should never be confused about an issue that's not confusing in scripture. And so when you have Christians that are confused on issues that there's biblical clarity for, it tells me they haven't been sitting under expository teaching, uh, where pastors have maybe been forming messages to make people feel good instead of actually shepherding and discipling them. And I'm curious what you see in America now. I know you've actually started a pastors network to try to help encourage and engage and activate pastors to disciple more. But I'm sure you get pushback too from pastors who would say, well, Rob, like that's not the role of a pastor. How how do you respond to maybe the pushback? And then at what point in even thinking when you went to the David Lane, uh, the pastoral renewal conferences, and you heard Bob McCune or Bill Fetter or my dad, they were giving you the context of how America was birthed and how the word of God shaped what was happening. And I think the context, all it does is show you that if if you apply biblical truth in relevant ways, you can change the culture. I think that's all that history really shows you is you can do it God's way and it works really, really well. And how would you then navigate when pastors are saying, wait, we don't think you should do that? Because I think a lot of this is probably just spiritual warfare, uh disguised in whatever religious language and titles uh that people want to give to it. But but how do you see that and how do you respond to pushback?

Expository Teaching Versus Soft Messages

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Great, again, great, great question, Tim. Um so the expository teaching that I got under Don McClure and and Chuck Smith and Joe Foch and Damian Kyle all through the Calvary Chapels, um, and and and you know, Dr. Bruce Beloyan to observe the text, uh, observation, interpretation, application, and and to see it in context. And and then when you go to the application point, it it's not always about evangelism, but they they it's bigger than that. And and then, you know, I the Calvary Chapels were notoriously for for not being political. You know, they avoided that. And and that's because when they started in '68, they were just a bunch of, you know, prior hippies and and drug users that had had a profound conversion to Christ. And then Chuck avoided politics, but but taught, you know, went through the Bible verse by verse, chapter by chapter, book by book, and they brought in Marinoth of music with syncopated rhythms, and and it just took off. It had 10,000% growth. But but here, you know, I came in in the second wave of that, but but got to train under the guys that were in the the beginning of it and the move of God's spirit upon their lives.

Big Church Growth Yet Cultural Collapse

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But then I also saw California wasn't improving and the lion's share, those Calvary chapels, I mean, 1,800 worldwide, and the majority of them are in California. I think once it was said, and I don't know if it's true today, but from Van Nuys to the Mexican port border, there were more Calvary chapels than Dunkin' Donuts. And at one point, you know, four of the 10 largest churches in America were Calvary chapels. And we had the Harvest Crusades with Greg Laurie and the Somebody Loves You Crusades with Raw Reese and 10,000% growth. And that was conversion growth, not transfer growth. And, you know, they're their eschatologies, pre-trib, pre-millennial. So they believe in a rapture. And it's kind of like every eschatology comes with an asset and a liability. They were unbelievable with evangelism because, you know, it's it's kind of like the house is on fire. You got to get the kids out. The next thing on God's day planner is the rapture. But you also see where California wasn't improving. We went from in 1968 to the fifth largest GDP to now having the sixth, maybe seventh. We have the highest gas tax, sales tax, income tax, corporate tax. In 68, Reagan was governor in California. We were I was born there in 64. My dad was born there. It was an amazing state. And today it's imploding. And we leave the nation in abortion. I mean, uh, and worse than that, it we don't just rip the baby apart in the womb of the mother and flush the parts in the sewer system of the state. We harvest the organs on the downbeat of the heart, and and and and California's a mess. And and so, where's the power of that gospel as all these conversions, um, but but no transformation

History Awakening And A Civic Calling

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of the culture. And and so I then have the privilege while I'm pastoring a church, invited by David Lane to come in and and meet political leaders and historians that understand the the early birth of this nation, and it was as though a light bulb went on. So by my understanding of the scripture expositorily, my understanding of honest history of America, combining the two and realizing revival, awakening. And and so when I when I went then to Hillsdale online and started studying, and then I come into contact with Charlie Kirk, who who is he's he's on a trajectory. I mean, at first he was kind of a libertarian, but but he he loved the Lord. I mean, he he came to Christ, I think it was fifth grade, and did and he had training under wonderful men who many of them ended up being on his board of directors. He was loyal. He he went through Boy Scouts and his mom and dad, as Charlie would always say, afforded him the ability to have that kind of an education and that upbringing. And um and then I I come into his life and and he sees a prototype he had never seen before. I just happened to be strategically positioned for that. So what it ended up doing for the two of us is we would get pushback from pastors saying, I don't do politics, I just preach the gospel. So we'd be left with this, and and how do we how do we how do we contend with that? So

Matthew 16 And The Leaven Warning

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Charlie and I would do in-depth studies, and one in particular that that really resonated with me was Matthew 16, where at the beginning of the chapter, Jesus is uh taking his disciples across the Galilee and they get in the boat and he and he says to them in Matthew 16, I think it's also Mark 7, he says in 16, Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees. And then in Ma uh Mark 7 he says, Beware, and and also beware of the leaven of Herod. And then their response is Did we not bring enough bread? And and there have just been the miracles with the loaves and the fishes. And he goes, That's not about that, fellas. You saw how many baskets were left over. It's beware of the doctrine of the Pharisees and the Sadducees and of Herod. And they're like, Okay. So Pharisees, Sadducees, and Charlie and I did this together, Pharisees, Sadducees were priests, and and Herod's a king. And and you look at this, 6,000 years of recorded history, you know, the few have the few have ruled the many with the priests and the kings, with their hocus pocus, and and ruling the masses. And and he's saying, Beware of those that would lead a community by their doctrine. So they cross the Galilee and they go up to the headwaters of the Jordan. Now, this ties in because when they get up to the headwaters of the Jordan, which is a long way from the Galilee, and I've been there 33 times, and and it's one of my favorite places in Israel. It's it's resplendent. It's a park-like setting up in the north where it's cool and the waters are beautiful, and up on the cliffs of Caesarea Philippi, every culture that's dominated the region has set up a temple to their god or goddess. So at the time, the Romans were dominating the region, so they probably had a temple to Bacchus, uh, god of alcohol, or you know, Aphrodite. There's probably drunken nudity going on there. I, you know, they would go up there to worship these gods small g, these deities, you know, where they would take their sin and and and call it a god. And and these Jewish boys are up there with a rabbi and a cacophony of noise of pagan worship, probably watching drunken nudity. He turns to his disciples and he says, Who do men say that I am? And I just said, Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, Sadducees, and of Herod. And then he says, Who do men say that I am? And they say, Some say you're John the Baptist, others say you're Jeremiah, and then it was but he he interrupts, he says to he says, But who do you say that I am? And Peter, he says, You're the Christ, the Son of the Living God, you're you're the Messiah of the world. And Jesus says, Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, for flesh and blood is not revealed this to you, but my

Ecclesia As A Public Assembly

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father in heaven, and upon this rock I will build mine. Everyone says church. This is what clicked for me entirely. The word's not church. And when you when you study history, when you study history, you realize Tyndale, who who produced the first English-speaking Bible, um translated that one word correctly, and it wasn't church. He translated it correctly, and for that one word, the King of England had him hung and his remains burned. And he didn't even translate it totally correctly, he just said assembly instead of church. Jesus didn't use a religious term in Matthew 16, 18. He didn't say synagogues or temple. He deliberately used a secular term. That the etymology of it, and Charlie and I did this study, Charlie more so than me, and then I I just started going deeper after that. It goes all the way back to Aristotle. And the words ecclesia or ecclesia. And and when you study that, the ecclesia was where the citizens of the Greek city-state would gather to decide the welfare of the of the members of their community. And and here's the kicker above the door of every ecclesia, not all of them, but the lion's share of them were two words in Greek: Eleutheria and Isonomia, which means liberty and equality. So now look at the passage. Upon this rock I will build my city hall, and the gates of hell, gates enslaved, and the gates of hell will not prevail. Three to five million people enslaved, gates of hell will not enslave. You you see three to five million people enslaved. That the ten plagues releases them with the Pesoch, the Passover, Egyptian armies drowned, you know, Pharaoh chases after him, but but the Moses leads them out. They get into the wilderness, their clothes don't wear out for 40 years, shoes don't wear out for 40 years, quail blown off course, manna, which knew the day of the week was a type of food. Miracle after miracle after miracle, but here's the greatest one. They get up on Mount Sinai. It mo Moses does, and he gets a downloaded moral app, the Decalogue, and it comes down and places it in the center of the community. And here's the greatest miracle. Three to five million people lived together for 40 years, Tim, without a police force or a standing army, because they were governed by God and they were accountable to each other. And this is where you and your dad came in. Your dad first, then you. When when when you bring up to all of those who attend your speaking opportunities, and and I heard this early on, University of Houston study. The number one book quoted by our founders was the Bible. Number one book of the Bible they quoted. Deuteronomy. Because they saw a constitutional republic in the wilderness, the constitution was the Decalogue, and the representative form of government was when Jethro said to Moses, appoint godly men who are not covetous, who love the law over thousands, hundreds, fifties, tens, federal, state, county, local. I mean,

Silence On Harmful Policies

SPEAKER_00 12:05

that's where our founders got it. All this stuff's clicking. It's clicking for Charlie. And then the last part that really resonated, and I say this to pastors because they when they say I don't do politics, I just preach the gospel. It's it's moral pietism where they're elevating themselves as though I I don't soil myself. And and and Christians think politics is poly meaning many and ticks meaning bloodsucking parasite. It comes it comes from the Greek word polis, which is city and the concerns of the city. And the ecclesia was where the citizens of the Greek city state would gather for the welfare of their citizens. And you look at Jeremiah 29, pray for the peace of the city in which you dwell, for in its peace you'll have peace. But in Matthew 22, when Jesus is is approached and he eviscerates this the Sadducee uh and the Pharisees are like, Wow, he he just he mopped the floor with that guy. They send their best attorney, the Pharisees, do, to confront Jesus, and the Pharise the attorney says to Jesus, What's the greatest commandment? And you just have the decalogue and they the moral law. What's the greatest commandment? Jesus says, To love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. The second is like it. Love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang the law of the prophets. That's a pretty significant commandment. So my question to pastors out there who don't do politics, which is the highest form of community, which is the affairs of the city, and which concerns your neighbor. You know, when when you perform a wedding pastor and you say if there's anyone in the room who has an issue with these two being married, speak now or forever hold your peace, the congregation silences consent. So when your silence in the face of your neighbor's kids being given hormone blockers at 15 that are so inhumane you won't give them to a serial rapist in prison. And you you are silent about that? When a c when Chloe Cole at 15 gets a double mass ectomy, never had a suicidal thought, and they they lied to her and they said that was loving to lie to her, that she bec she could become a a a man, a boy. That'll never happen. You know it too. You know there's two genders based on the Bible, but you think peace is the absence of conflict, and it's not, it's the presence of Christ in the midst of the conflict. You don't like guys like Charlie Kirk because he's contending in the public square for the sake of his neighbor's kids. And and you just want people to raise their hand and go on their merry way. There's no discipleship.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

Yeah.

Break And Founders Resource

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Quick interruption, everybody. We gotta take a quick break. We'll be right back. You're listening to the Wall Builder Show.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

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God’s Design For Government Engagement

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Welcome back to the Wall Builder Show, Tim Barton and Rob McCoy, jumping right back in.

SPEAKER_02 15:57

Rob, I think it's it's always boggled in my mind a little bit. If you talk to pastors about the institutions that God created, and if God gives guidance to those, like no pastor's gonna be like, well, God didn't give us guidance for how to raise a family, right? How marriage works? God didn't give us guidance for how to operate the church. And yet, if you look at the institutions of the family, of church, and then government, the idea that we should be involved as Christians, as believers, we should be involved in family and church affairs, but not government affairs. Hey, who created that institution? Who gave guidance and ordinances for that institution? So the idea that we're not going to be involved as a Christian, that we don't think God should be involved in something He created, He instituted, He ordained, it is so illogical. But unfortunately, you commented earlier that you went to seminary people like cemetery. I think that's what a lot of these seminaries are teaching is that you shouldn't get engaged in certain things, you leave those alone. But if if we are not going to disciple people, if Christians or if if pastors, if the word won't disciple, the world will. And so if pastors aren't discipling with the word, the world is going to. And the irony, as you point out, when we're looking at some of this uh that the transgender movement that pastors have not spoken up to. And by the way, whether it's boys going in the girls' locker rooms or planning sports or the medication or the surgeries, whatever it is, I would remind people, we literally have seen firsthand with this Lindsey Clancy trial, a mom who the women and a couple men on the jury, by and large, were like, you know what, she couldn't help it because she had really big hormones. You mean the hormones that were pumping into kids that make somebody emotionally unstable? Like it's so inconsistent. Now somebody will be like, well, that's different. No, no, no. You are pumping in unnatural things into a body. So whether you're saying like Lindsay Clancy, it was SSRI that she was on or postpartum, whatever it is, she had big feelings, big emotions, a lot of hormones and drugs. So what do you think we're pumping into kids and how is that going to make them better? But for pastors who are not willing to speak to the evil happening in our society, it in my mind, it it really falls into more of a John 10 category. And I would love to know your thoughts on this and maybe pasture me on this if you think I'm wrong. Because Jesus said he's the good shepherd, but the sheep hear his voice, they won't turn aside to another. And then he contrasts it and says, But the hireling sees the wolf coming, turns and runs, because the sheep aren't really his, and then the wolf comes and it kind of gives you this idea that the wolf scatters and devours the sheep. If as a pastor, if you don't see a wolf coming for the rising generation and you're not willing to engage it in my mind, I just have to think, okay, is that because you're a hireling? Because either you're like the worst shepherd there's ever been, or you're not a shepherd at all. Do you see that differently? Am I misreading that passage?

SPEAKER_00 18:59

No.

Hirelings Fear And Culture Drift

SPEAKER_00 19:00

I think I think the pastors in America start out with with noble and honorable means and desires. I really do. And and and I don't think all of them were as blessed as I was to have been discipled under guys like Don McClure and Joe Foch and Damian Kyle, um, and and then your dad and Bob McEwen and and and all those, Bill Federer. Uh and and and so, you know, and and seminaries, um, I mean, you just look at you you look at South Korea. I mean, it's about to fall to communism because the the largest churches in the world, the full gospel church in South Korea, uh, they they were raided by this socialist administration and they're imprisoning pastors, and it's the largest Christian population in Asia of any nation. And they're in trouble, and the pastors are frightened and they're silent. When when their own shepherds are being imprisoned and they they don't do anything because they are hirelings, they they are managing uh assets, they're concerned about losing their building and and and the the income. And and when they created the business model for the church, I mean, you know, the the seeker-sensitive model, it it's it's no longer about discipleship, it's about you know the three B's, buildings, budgets, and baptisms. Uh, and and and how large is your church and how big is your budget, and how many people have come in, and and how many buildings do you have? Well, when you look in Revelation and the seven churches, none of those were considered healthy based on buildings, budgets, or baptisms. And and it was it's this idea that you contend for truth. And and the number one qualification listed in Revelation 21 for the lake of fire was the cowardly. And and fear of man is a snare. And and and often said, in the absence of courage, truth is an orphan. So when when Breitbart used to say that uh politics is downstream from culture, well, it's supposed to be the church is driving culture, but we don't anymore. We adapt to it. And instead of allowing truth to drive culture and making hard stands and and discipling people to contend in the public square, uh, we we just adapt to culture. So ultimately, our view of scripture will adapt to culture as well, and we'll start to compromise truth, we'll exchange the truth for a lie. And it's a slippery slope. And and we we just start allowing all this to creep in and it and it dominates us. And it's it's like if you're off one degree and you leave what Long Beach um and you you you want to go to Hawaii and you're off just one degree, you're gonna miss it by what 500 miles? Over time, you just drift. And and and if you're you know the topical teaching can do that if you don't know the whole counsel of God's word, you know, studying to show yourself approved, which uh and and and Charlie you

Charlie Kirk Legacy And Missed Shepherding

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You know, a a missionary goes where he's not loved but needed and leaves when he's no longer needed but loved. And what made Charlie the most misunderstood missionary in American history, I would, I would venture to guess. He would spend his morning in devotion to the Lord. Al always read his scriptures. He would send scriptures out to everybody every morning. And and he he was reading those and he was prayerful and he would pray for people. He'd take a Sabbath and and turn off all that and spend time with his family, but all together with the Lord. And then he would then spend during the week two hours studying topics pertinent to 1830 30-year-olds, which he called the Lost Boys of the West, which that was his mission field. And he had such a profound effect on them, discipling them with a Christian world view that when he was martyred in front of their eyes the Sunday following his his homecoming or his murder, they all showed up in church for the first time. And the pastors not only wouldn't invoke Charlie's name or even the topics that he he educated them on, they avoided his name altogether. And these young people were like, what in the world? And and so Pastor, why are you why are you avoiding these topics? Is is it is it the idol of evangelism that you you won't educate your congregation on what the Bible has to say about homosexuality and transgenderism and immigration? I mean that's what your congregants want to know. Just look at the studies. But yeah, some people are going to be upset, but then the fear of man is a snare. If you're afraid of losing someone instead of we're not in charge of the outcome, we're in charge of the obedience. It's the Lord who adds to their numbers daily. They committed themselves to the apostles' teaching and the Lord added their numbers daily. And you don't change it to fit the culture. You drive the culture. I don't even know if I answered your question, Tim.

SPEAKER_02 23:56

I just know it's funny. Um you you you started off very gracious, which I I have to be careful. Uh I was on church staff for a lot of years. I'm an ordained minister. Um, and so that's part of my background. My heart is I love people. I want to disciple people, but I it's very easy for me in like this prophetic mind to see black and white uh and not be maybe as gracious as I should. So you were very gracious, but you landed exactly kind of what I feel. Uh we are ignoring things, the church is ignoring things they shouldn't be addressing. Um, and I remember the the Sunday after Charlie's murder, um, I was actually speaking in Jack Hibbs Church. Uh, and they they played a tribute video um to Charlie right before I spoke, and just like it it wrecked everybody. But like it wrecked me, and I'm like, I'm supposed to talk. And I like I'm just crying. It was it was really tough. Um, but in in the next week, there was a supposed to be a turning point faith event. It was a localized deal. And uh essentially they said, hey, no, uh, no events, nobody can do anything um until after the memorial. And they said, Well, can we do like just this little memorial? Because they already had a plan, it was hundreds of pastors or the hundreds of people and maybe dozens of pastors that were supposed to be at this event, and it could be a chapter event. Uh, and they said, Okay, if you want to do a little tribute memorial, and so they still had me scheduled to be there. So I went and spoke, and um, afterwards I met with the couple dozen pastors, and I said, Okay, um I I I am not asking this to like shame or condemn anybody. I'm just curious how many of you talked about Charlie this last Sunday? And one or two of them raised their hands. I said, now listen, I'm not I'm not trying to shame you. I want to connect a dot for you. I said, everybody in your church who is 40 and younger, they don't just know what happened. They saw the video multiple times. I could not escape it on some of their feeds, their algorithms. Um, I said, honestly, some of them are are navigating trauma because of what they saw. And so they come to a place looking for help, hope, and answers.

Part Two Closing And How To Follow

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All right, folks, out of time for today. This was the second in a three-part series with Tim Barton interviewing Rob McCoy. So if you missed yesterday, go to wallbuilders.show and uh, of course, tomorrow we'll get the conclusion. Also, while you're there, visit wallbuilders.com, our main website. That's where you can uh get all of our different programs. You can uh sign up for some of our events coming up. You can also make that one-time or monthly contribution. We thank you for being a part of funding this program and helping us reach as many people as possible. Do that today at wallbuilders.com. Thanks so much for listening to the Wall Builders Show.