Welcome And Series Preview

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Welcome to the Intersection of Faith and Culture. It's the Wall Builder show taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective. Rick Green here with David Barton and Tim Barton. And today, actually, Tim's going to take the lead in an interview with our oh well, I don't even know the right word. I wanted to say incomparable. I don't know if that's the right word. There's no comparison to Rob McCoy. Pastor Rob McCoy, our great friend here at Wall Builders, and just a great patriot who has had such an incredible impact on the country and the culture, on Charlie Kirk, on Turning Point, on Patriot Academy, on Wall Bobby. We love this guy, and he has impacted all of us in such a great way. Anyway, Tim got to sit down with him and have a great interview for the American story. And we wanted to make sure we could share that with you here, our Wall Builders uh show listeners. And it's going to take us a couple of days to do that. So this is going to actually uh spread out over uh the next two days as well. So we'll start with it today, and you'll get some of it tomorrow, and then the conclusion on the third day. So hope you enjoy this. Let's jump in with Tim Barton and Rob McCoy.

Tim Introduces Pastor Rob McCoy

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Welcome to the American Story Podcast. I am on the road. I'm actually in Washington, D.C. right now. Uh, and if you've been following along to any of our social media stuff, you know we are in the midst of starting to build a podcast studio. So hopefully in the future, I'll be able to have people like my guest today, my friend Pastor Rob McCoy. He'll join me in studio, but right now I'm on the road. Uh he is multiple hours behind me. We're on different coasts right now. I'm I'm DC, he's out in California, but he's agreed to wake up early to join me on this podcast. And he's someone that probably needs no introduction. Uh he's someone that our family has known literally for decades. I'm I'm guessing. I don't know exactly when it started. Um, but he's somebody I knew because my dad talked about this amazing pastor in California and how he was catching the vision that pastors could influence the culture and the community in the city. And he ran for local politics and he got elected and he was leading in these areas. Well, fast forward, he gets connected with Charlie Kirk. He's the guy that's known as Charlie Kirk's pastor. He's the one that at the Charlie Kirk Memorial, he opens it all and he gives a presentation of the gospel, arguably to a larger audience than anybody in American history. Billy Graham didn't even have crowds this big as more than 100 million people live streamed it now. It's it's nearly two billion people that have seen some portion of it. He's somebody that has had to navigate now a lot from voices on all kinds of sides, but he's someone that has loved and served God through the midst of it. He's someone that his heart has absolutely been motivated for people and God. Exactly what Jesus said, the two greatest commands were love God, love people. This is the man that I know and I'm so grateful for. And now he's joining us on the podcast. Pastor Rob, thanks for being with us today.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Thanks, Tim. It's good to be with you. You're a great blessing to me and all your kind words. I'm I'm rubber, your glue bounces off me, sticks to you. Well and your dad.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

I I'm so grateful. So uh ultimately, I I want people to get to know you a little bit better. I think some people um have heard or seen your name around, but most people don't know your story. Uh, and and I'm actually curious too, because I've I've heard my dad talk about you for decades. I haven't known you for decades. I've known you for less than a decade. And so I don't even really know how did how did you get involved in ministry where you became a pastor and then all the ways that God led you. Will you take us through some of that story?

From Sales To The Pulpit

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Yeah, um, well, uh I became the senior pastor at uh Calvary Chapel Godspeak here in Thousand Oaks, California in 2001. But prior to that, um I I was I was an assistant pastor uh at Calvary Chapel San Jose under Don McClure, who heads up what they call the CCA, the Calvary Chapel Association. So I got to train under him, and then prior to that, um I worked at an Armenian church, not the theology, but the ethnicity uh in Fresno, California, where I had been kind of led to the Lord and disciple by two people when I was in college, um, a man by the name of Steve Carrell and another one by the name of uh Reverend Roger Manassian. So um when I graduated, I went into sales. I started to work for Helene Curtis, Cheeseboro Ponds, Unilever. And then um when Michelle and I married in 1990, uh we just had a call to ministry. So I I left, I left the uh the the sales world and I I went into ministry and I took my first position at this Armenian church in Fresno where I'd volunteered before. And uh Michelle was pregnant with Molly at the time, and we served there for about four or five years. I I went to it did a little bit of seminary, it was more like cemetery to me, but um survived that and um and then and then took a position uh at at Calvary Chapel San Jose as an assistant pastor, and then um really cut my teeth there and and learned expository teaching. And um and that and then I I was asked uh candidate for uh the the church here in Thousand Oaks and I did and uh they accepted me and I I pastored at that church for 25 years, and then last year I became pastor emeritus, turned it over to Micah Stevens, and he has been he's he's gonna take it places I never could. He already has. And uh and and in the course of that, I I did

Running For Office As Pastor

SPEAKER_01 5:25

run for office. Uh I I ran for the state assembly back in 2014, 15. Um, and and I uh won the primary, lost the general. My opponent vacated their seat uh on the council, and I ran for their vacated seat and I won, and then won re-election. And during that term, I became mayor of the city of Thousand Oaks while I was still the senior pastor. And it was at that time, uh serendipitously, I met a young man uh by the name of Charlie Kirk. Uh I had seen him in 2018 at a council for national policy that uh Bob McEwen uh had put on in um La Quinta, California, and I saw him debate Lila Rose and I thought this is a pretty remarkable guy. And when I came back, I told my family that I said, well, how'd the weekend go? And I said, Well, I heard a guy by the name of uh Charlie Kirk debate, and my my youngest child, um Michael McCoy. Mikey, he was uh what, sophomore junior in high school, and he just he lit up. He said, Dad, you you you saw Charlie Kirk. I said, You know this guy? He goes, Yeah, Dad, I listen to him all the time. And my Mikey knew Charlie long before I did. And so um I thought, wow, I'd I'd like to get to know this guy. He's got a huge impression upon my son. And I was at a conservative radio conference in Ontario, invited to be a speaker on a panel with Jack Hibbs and Tim Thompson. And the topic was pastors and politics. And again, I get the at the time I was the mayor of the city and um and and I was the pastor of the church. So Jack's precious, he keeps deferring the questions to me. Rob's in office, why don't Rob answer that question? And and so it was he was a fun panel. And when we concluded, I'm coming down, and there's Charlie, and he's the next speaker. I figured I'd take a video from my son because he was a big fan. And Charlie, before I could ask him if he'd uh videotape for my son, he goes, I didn't know a guy like you existed. And it kind of threw me off. I go, what do you mean? And he goes, uh a pastor in politics. And I go, I I didn't know a guy like you existed. And he goes, What do you mean? I said, a young conservative, and we both giggled. But the truth of the matter is later we would meet at uh an event at Liberty University, and this and it's through David Lane and the the Americ or the uh pastors and pews that he would do, the American Renewal Project, that I had met your father back in, I want to say 2007, 2006. I mean, a ways back. And uh, and and that's

Meeting Charlie Kirk Through Ministry

SPEAKER_01 7:55

that's where I started to cut my teeth on understanding all of this. And and I'm I'm I'm forever grateful to David Lane. And um, and so we were doing an American Renewal project at Liberty University, and I saw Charlie again, and and David asked me to come up and pray for President Falwell and pray for Charlie. And it was a room full of pastors, just like the American Renewal Project. You you know what they're about, Tim. And so I laid hands on President Falwell, prayed for him. I don't, I don't remember much of it, didn't really, you know. And and I remember Charlie was there with Erica. They were dating at the time. Uh they were engaged, but they were they were dating. And um I laid hands on him to pray for him. And, you know, I'm I'm not uh swinging from the chandelier charismatic. I mean, Calvary Chapels believed the gifts are for today. They're we just kind of keep them in the closet, you know. But but I I'll tell you, that was one of those moments where when I laid hands on it, was it the Holy Spirit, that this move of the Lord upon my heart, I was overwhelmed with emotion, the kind of the love that God the Father had for this young man. And I had to compose myself because I didn't want to look silly in front of all these pastors. I don't even remember what I prayed, but I just remember being overwhelmed. And concluded that, and um that was kind of the end of the event. Came back here to California and and because of David Lane, I get a call from Liberty University and and I think it was the provost, and he said, uh, President Falwell wants you to be dean of the seminary. He wants to replicate you, a pastor of politics. And and he and he said, and I said, Wow, what a what an honor. And he said, What's your doctorate in? And and I laughed. I said, I don't, I don't have one of those. Oh, that's okay. I mean, the president wants it to happen, we'll get it done. And the second question was, Well, then what's your master's in? And I go, you know, funny, I don't have one of those either. I'm about 11 units shy, and I have no interest in getting one. So, you know, and he goes, That that's fine. We can still do this, we'll we'll make it work. And I said, you know, I I'm honored by the the offer, but but quite candidly, you know, the the currency in academia is degrees, and I would ruin your seminary. If you want to replicate me, don't put me behind a desk and in front of a bunch of theologians. I I just, it's, it's just not my wheelhouse. And I could almost sense a sigh of relief from the vice president. And he said, Well, I was talking with another vice president. We were thinking you would be far more effective uh as an executive director at the Falkirk uh Institute that that they're getting ready to form. It it's a combination of Jerry Falwell, Charlie Kirk, Christian stepping into the public square. And I said I'd I'd be very interested in that. And so Charlie uh was excited about it. He remembered me. And I and of course I remembered him, and we went through all the aspects of it, and that's where

TPUSA Faith And Charlie’s Legacy

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Charlie and I really got connected. And uh and then we ended up, you know, it it didn't quite work out with um the Falkirk Institute. Um, I had a check in my spirit about it, and then of course we we know what happened at Liberty. Um and then Charlie backed away from that too. And so we started uh the TP USA Faith um kind of a hybrid where we we would have actuary points similar to what the American Renewal Project had with pastors coming in, but but we would bring in all these ministries, um, like you know, uh Rick Green, uh, where we do biblical citizenship and and we tie it in with uh Turning Point Academy and get homeschooling and all the areas that pastors, it was almost like a buffet line. Each one is given a measure of faith, and they would pick what they wanted to do. Faith wins with Chad Connolly. And it and it took off. And and Charlie, I was never an employee of Turning Point. I uh I was Charlie called me his pastor. I remember the first time he did, I was taken aback by it. And and uh well, I I can answer why I think that's the case, why he called me his pastor. It's not he was a terrible congregant. I mean, I think he was in church three times in the in the time I I was with him. And th those were all speaking opportunities. Um and he was on the road 320 days a year. He tithed to the church, he called me his pastor, I called him my friend, and um and and to be invited to speak at his memorial was great honor. I I didn't expect that. Um and and uh he gave me an honorary title, uh co-chair of TP USA Faith, and and when Charlie died, he was the other co-chair, so you know that role was completed and um and and that's where we are today. I and I miss him, but it was a great homecoming. And the Lord the Lord has multiplied his uh his effectiveness uh through his martyrdom um to this entire generation. It's it's been remarkable to see. And um I've been praying for Erica and Turning Point and and her children. She's she's she's amazing, uh remarkable what she's accomplished and through all of the vitriol and and the evil out there. Um she's an amazing lady. And and my son obviously became Charlie's chief of staff and now is Erica's chief of staff. And just I it's a forced gump anointing, Tim. I I I I don't know how I got there and and uh but yet I I I would find myself, this is the last thing, I'd find myself immediately after Charlie died, probably about three o'clock in the morning, it was just almost clockwork. I'd wake up and I'd get choked up. I'd I'd start I'm I'd start crying, and that's not really my my MO. It lasts for about an hour, and it wasn't because I was sad. It was because I was so grateful that that I'd had the privilege to meet a man and and be involved with him uh a ministry and and his life and to witness his life, uh public and private, um, of a man that comes along one in a thousand years. And and I just was thankful to the Lord, thankful to Charlie. Um yeah, so that's where we are today.

How To Listen And Share

SPEAKER_00 13:45

Quick break, everybody. We'll be right back. You're listening to the Wall Builder Show. Hey friends, Rick Green for the Wall Builder Show, encouraging you to share the program with friends and family and listen to it on the podcasts that are out there. There's so many options out there for you to listen to in the car or from home or while you're working in them. You've got Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, iHeartRadio, Castbox. I mean, there's so many options, and we just want to make sure you know we've worked hard to get it out there and make it available for you on all those different apps. Everybody's got their favorite app, so choose your particular app. And if it's not on there yet, email us, radio at wallbuilders.com and let us know about your favorite podcast app, and we'll make sure Wobblers Radio is listed there. But you can listen and most importantly, share it with your friends and family. That's how the program grows, that's how we get more truth in the hands of as many people as possible. And then, of course, wallbuilders.show, super easy place uh to find all of those podcast apps and to just download right there from that website as well as be able to share it with your friends and family. So check it out today, wobblers.show, or just go directly to your favorite podcast app, listen to the Wobbler Show, and share it with as many people as you possibly can.

Pressure And Attacks In Public Life

SPEAKER_00 14:55

Welcome back to the Wobbler Show, jumping back in with Tim Barton and Rob McCoy.

SPEAKER_02 15:00

Rob, I've been very honored. Uh actually, even this year, we we've been in a lot of places together. Uh, we've done a lot of conferences and events, and I've been so honored to uh to be able to spend more time with you. Um I know that you're having to navigate a lot of challenges from uh, I mean, I wouldn't say demonic attacks. Um, you know, when when Paul says in Ephesians 6 that part of the armor of God is a show of faith to quench all the fiery darts of the enemy, there have been a lot of fiery darts coming your direction, your family's direction, the direction of your friends. And so I do want to get into that in a minute to see like how do Christians respond? You know, how are you navigating this? How do you think about it? Because even though this is a unique situation for you, it's it's not really unique in the devil's schemes uh and what the devil's doing. So I want to go there, but I want to back up because a thing that Charlie saw in you that that really helped the connection be there. Obviously, God was doing things, but it was a pastor involved in politics. Uh, and even before that, I want to back up because you said something at the very beginning uh that I'm curious because I I feel like this is something that is not as prevalent in society. You talked about you learned to do expository teaching. Well what is expository teaching? And do you think we've lost some of that in the American church as a whole?

What Expository Teaching Means

SPEAKER_01 16:22

Yes. Um but more than that, yeah, in in so so the equipping of of where I I was positioned to fall into Charlie Kirk's life. Um I I don't think you'll be surprised by the answer, Tim. Um your dad had an enormous role in that. Uh as I as I complimented David Lane and Will to the to my dying breath, because he he put me in the presence of your dad, Bill Federer, uh Bob McEwen. And I was a history major at at Fresno State. I wasn't a great student. I mean, I was an athlete, so I basically majored in eligibility. And I became a Christian in college, and so the first book I ever read cover to cover, strangely enough, was the Bible. And and I picked history maybe through dyslexia, because the title of every class was history of, and I thought it was his story. And and and yet um it wasn't until I I heard your father and Bob McHugh and and and and Bill Federer that it it took a hold of my heart because for me, history's linear and and it and it connects us uh as individuals, especially as as um citizens of the nation, to see how our the story of our country is intertwined into who we are. And there's biblical application to all of it. And and it it was so exciting to me to hear something I'd never heard before. It was almost like your dad was throwing gold coins from from the dais. And and he talked, I mean, he was like drinking from a fire hydrant. And I had the privilege again, because of David Lang, to hear your dad over and over again to to get it get more of that in. Uh, first time you hear it, you you probably got about five percent. And then I go back and watch the videos, and then I took all the Hillsdale online courses, and and when I started to get an understanding of history, I was blown away by it. And then I was given um the gift of of expository teaching as I I trained under Don McClure and also another man by the name of Dr. Bruce Beloyan, where you go verse by verse, chapter by chapter, book by book study of the entirety of the scripture. It's not it's not proof texting or picking the topic you want. And and and as I started to see American history and and seeing folks like Reverend Duches and you know Jonathan Edwards and Jonathan Mayhew and of course George Whitfield and and Thomas Hooker and all these ministers, I realized that uh America it especially the pastorate, something went wrong here because we're all about evangelism and not discipleship. And Matthew 28 really really hit me where it says, go therefore and make disciples of all nations. And even when we disciple in the church in America today, it's on how to share your faith. It's

Revival Versus Cultural Awakening

SPEAKER_01 19:05

it's on evangelism. And it the church is all about evangelism. It's almost like um it it it it's almost like an idol. And and this the this idea that you can you can change a culture uh because you've discipled the people of a nation. And then when when your dad did that in-depth study, especially with Barna and I I know you had an enormous hand in it, but to realize those those ten revivals in American history, um they all led to an awakening. So a revival is people coming to church and awakening is where they change the culture. Uh people come to Christ and then the awakening is where they change the culture. And to see that change in 1870, it was like that clicked for me. Because it became about, you know, with D.O. Moody and Finney, it all became about evangelism. So we didn't see any cultural change. Case in point, you know, the Calvary chapels I belonged to uh they they they started in 1968. Well, coinciding with the Jesus Revolution, this this evangelism, this this revival was also the sexual revolution. And and here we are today. And what it's oh I think it's over 80% of Christian women who have had an abortion did so after they became a Christian. There was no cultural change. And and now the church is a mile wide and an inch deep, and we're coming up against conflicts of of of contending ideologies that are uh are consuming our culture. And we're watching as in Islam is rolling in and secular progressivism and and is how it's dominated our schools and how we've been inculcated that look, I don't I don't I don't I don't do politics, I just preach the gospel, meaning I just do evangelism, and I don't want to bring up any t

Why Politics Belongs In Community

SPEAKER_01 20:45

touchy topic that's gonna hinder someone from praying the prayer to receive Christ. Well that that's that's not biblical. And and so this this is and and when I met Charlie, I I see a guy who is fully engaged in the public square. And he meets me and and and I I'll never forget this, Tim. I I said we'd gone, I think, eleven states in nine days in in Trump's second campaign, and he and Charlie's half my age, and he's I'm just I'm schlepping bags for him. I want to get to know the guy. I'm impressed by him. I I want to make sure he's as he's who he is in private as who he is in public. I can see it and and I there's something there that I know is a bridge for this nation. And when I invited him, there was an open schedule. I invited him, it was in October of 2018, and I said, Hey, look, there's a break in the schedule. Why don't you come and preach at God's speak? It was the day before his birthday. And he goes, I I don't I don't speak in churches. I never have. I go, Why? And he said, 'Cause I'm too political, they don't want me. I go, Charlie, I I'm I'm I'm the mayor of the city and I'm the pastor of the church. Now if if God didn't want us in politics, he wouldn't have invented marriage. And and Charlie laughed. But I I said something to him that I I had gotten from. The Hillsdale online courses. And Charlie was the kind of guy that when he asked you about a topic and you would give him everything you knew on it, the next day he would have probably read two or three books. He was autodidact, voracious reader, and he'd be he would so overwhelm you with the the the and and exceed you in anything you knew on the topic that I didn't want him to know where I was learning all this stuff from the Hillsdale Online courses. And I used a line from one of Larry Arne's teachings. I said, Politics, Charlie, is the highest form of community. It combines morality with sociability. And he's like, Wow, where'd you get that? I go, I'm not telling you. And he laughed. And I had other things that I would share with him like that. But I said, Charlie, the pulpit is where you're supposed to be. And you know, Tim, this this, and I'll I'll conclude this because I don't know if I answered your question. I'd I can ramble forever. I'm Scotch-Irish. I don't like it and do his talk. But when that Sunday, when he agreed to do it, um, I'd at that point I'd been with Charlie probably 50 times in different venues, you know, coffees in people's houses, you know, smaller venues here and there, larger venues, big big venues. And he's he's just fearless. I saw him on campuses. They did they'd be throwing stuff at him and visceral uh ad hominem attacks that were just vile. And and he just was civil and kind. And

Getting Charlie Into The Pulpit

SPEAKER_01 23:20

that Sunday, as we're in the wings waiting for me to go out and I'll introduce him and have him come out, he's shaking. And and honestly, I thought he was having like a sugar low or something. I didn't know. I go, are you hungry? Are you doing okay? What's wrong with you? He goes, I'm nervous. I go, You're nervous? He goes, Yeah, I've I've never spoken in a church before. He had he had such a reverence for the pulpit and for the things of the Lord. And he he walked out that Sunday, and and I'm I'm not exaggerating, he he hit the ball so far out of the park it's still sailing. And uh and and that day it it it it was connected and I I started watching him lead with his faith everywhere he went and and I I didn't give him the platform to launch. This this is the last thing. So then the next day, Monday, I get a call from Jack Hibbs, who is like the I call him the Pope of Protestantism. He Jack is amazing, he's got a ginormous church and and an enormous reach on the internet. I I I'm a Luddite. You know, I I have an Instagram account I haven't posted in over a year. I I don't care about the internet. And and Jack calls me and he he says, Rob, will you fill in for me for our Wednesday night service? Now, if you're invited by Jack Kibb to preach, you have arrived. I mean, that's that's that's a big time. And I'm I'm like, wow. And and immediately I can hear the Lord saying, Not you. And so I said, Jack, you don't want me. He goes, What? I go, yeah, you don't want me. You want this guy, Charlie Kirk. Trust me. He goes, he's political. I go, listen to Sunday's message and then tell me what you think. I mean, I'll do it for you on Wednesday, but I'm telling you, I I'd be doing you a disservice not to have Charlie go in instead in my stead. And Jack, bless his heart, he listened. I mean, that guy's busier in a one-on-one wallpaper hanger. And he calls me back, he says, let's have him. And that night, it's so many people showed up and it packed the place out. And Charlie just went through the stratosphere because of Jack. And that was Jensen Franklin, that was Alan Jackson. I mean, you can go across the country with pastors who, you know, are epic. And yet Charlie called me his pastor. Not because I'm overwhelmingly gifted. I think it was just because we brought the public square and his faith together. And I just I watched nitro and glycerin and then the explosion. It was powerful.

SPEAKER_02 25:48

And

Final Takeaways And Part Two

SPEAKER_02 25:50

Rob, it was so powerful to see uh and it's so evident for anybody that watched Apollo Charlie, the last several years of his life, he was so bold about his faith. And ultimately, I I mean, he had he had church services uh every week on college campuses. You know, kids didn't know they were going to church, but ultimately he was doing the Apostle Paul in the Areopagus. He literally was doing discipleship and ministry, and his his faith became the driving force that we saw on the outside. Um, I I know some of that goes back to your influence and leadership that you gave him and really challenged him. And maybe that's why he thought of you as a pastor because you pastored him in that moment. You you you shepherd them and discipled them, helped him see this.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

All right, everybody, out of time for today. That was the first part in a three-part series to get this full interview that Tim Barton had with Rob McCoy. So don't miss tomorrow. You've been listening to the Wallbummer Show.