Welcome And Where To Listen

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Welcome to the intersection of faith and culture. It's the wall builder show taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective. Rick Green here with David Barton and Tim Barton, Foundations of Freedom Thursday today. And our websites are wallbuilders.com and wallbuilders.show, wallbuilders.com for pretty much everything except the radio program. And then for the radio program, you can go over to wallbuilders.show just to catch up on some of their more recent programs. Or if you're listening on your podcast app, you can always go in there and uh and listen to any that you missed, but also share it. We always recommend that you become a force multiplier and get these programs in the hands of as many people as possible. You can do that at wallbuilders.show or on your favorite podcast app. And then on wallbuilders.com, that's where we got all of our materials, all the cool swag. We got also lots of great opportunities for people to get trained, whether that be pastors or teachers or young people, and also to book one of our wall builder speakers to come in. And then, of course, on that same website, wallbuilders.com, is where you can make a contribution to Wall Builders, which puts us in the hands of more people or in the ears of more people and gets more people trained. So making those contributions really does matter and helps us to spread the word. Takes fuel in the tank, folks. So don't forget lives, fortunes, and sacred honor. We got to give a little bit of all three and we can save this country. Foundations of Freedom Thursday means you get to ask the questions. So if

Sharing The Show And Supporting WallBuilders

SPEAKER_01 1:20

you haven't sent any in recently, send them to radio at wallbuilders.com. That's radio at wallbuilders.com. We're gonna get started. And actually, before we even go to the questions, this was just a thank you from one of our listeners. Lisa said, Thank you. And all caps, by the way, thank you for so much for discussing Freemasonry on the show with lots of exclamation points. She says, I knew it was a lie. I never had the facts though. So thank you. And then more exclamation points than I can uh count. I look forward to reading the article on the site. And and by the way, everybody, if you if you missed that program where we talked about that, that there is uh an article on the website. Uh David's got an entire book on this. There's just um there's a lot there, but there's a great summary uh and and we pretty much summarized it on the radio program. But if you want that intellectual ammunition in your hands, uh be sure and check that out at the website, wallbuilders.com. Great tool uh for everyone to have. This topic uh in the 250th has come up uh more than it has in recent years, but you may have people asking you about that one, so go go check it out.

Listener Note On Freemasonry Resources

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Okay, let's see.

Pastor Question On Three Definitions

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Uh first one up with a question, David, is uh Pastor Jim. He said, uh thanks for answering my question on your August 20th program. In that discussion, David referred briefly to the word treason. Can you please provide the constitutional or U.S. law definitions of treason and sedition? Uh George Soros and those of his ideology committed treason against the have George Soros and those of his ideology committed treason against the United States through their promotion, funding, and enabling of mass immigration, undermining our election process, breakdown of our legal system, support of extreme liberal DAs and candidates, and much more. And then uh so treason, sedition, and then one more, David, is insurrection. Was insurrection committed in the early months of 2026 by all the extreme violence, interference, and rampant chaos caused by those who opposed the ICE officers as they enforced our U.S. immigration law in Minneapolis, St. Paul, Minnesota. Thanks in advance for your answers and for your wonderful ministry of serving our Lord Jesus. That was Pastor Jim. So, David, that's a lot, I've thrown a lot at you here, but basically three major definitions treason, sedition, and insurrection. What's your thoughts there?

SPEAKER_02 3:21

Yeah, and this is really a follow-up from one that we answered just a couple weeks ago on treason. And the follow-up with, okay, let's get a definition of treason and sedition and insurrection, because those are three things that the founding fathers dealt with and defined. And I think what makes this really hard is the way that the terms are thrown around right now, um, like people having rights against eyes because they don't want those laws to be enforced. Is that is that one of those? Is that sedition or is that insurrection? And and we have problems with this because going back to the um the election, the 20 uh 20 election, uh they said that Trump committed insurrection just by questioning the results. He never lifted a hand of of violence in any way, shape, fashion, or form, but they said what happened with that crowd there was violent, and therefore it's insurrection, and he's guilty of insurrection. So I mean, these these terms are thrown around like crazy now, especially when someone on the other side of which other side you're on, whether it's left or right, uh both both sides are throwing this charge at the other side. Uh they're throwing it now with Islam. Uh with now we see the the rise of Islam in so many cities, whether it be Dearborn or as it's trying to take off in Texas, and hey, let's declare this insurrection, let's declare this treason, because they're trying to create a new government. So these words are getting thrown around a whole lot. And the Founding Fathers actually it's really kind of interesting the history of this, because in Europe, those three terms treason and sedition and insurrection, because they were really elastic in Europe, the Founding Fathers came in

Why Founders Narrowed These Crimes

SPEAKER_02 5:01

with really, really narrow definitions.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

You mean elastic when you say that you mean just like broad definitions where you could pretty much fit anything under it if you wanted to go after somebody.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

Yeah, and what would happen is the kings would interpret a statute that had been passed and said, Well, I think that statute means this, and they would give a really broad reading to it. And it's a reading that had not been applied legally before, but since you're the king, you can do what you want. And then once the king does it, then it goes into the legal statutes and he gets parliament to pass that new definition. And so, I mean, literally, what happened with the American Revolution? The British claimed that was treason and that was insurrection and that was sedition. And the founding fathers said, Look, we were defending ourselves. You're the guys that are fired the first shot. And this is not sedition for us to stand up and say, follow the law. And King, you're not following the law, and Parliament, you're not following the law. We have we have laws and you're not following them. And so for us resisting that, suddenly America was guilty of all three of these things, which is why um, and and by the way, we're going to talk about White House probably later on today, some things going on there that relate to some of the questions coming up. But at the White House, they have put up uh a memorial there to those who died in the prison ships and the American Revolution. And the reason that's significant is when you look at the American Revolution, there were about 200,000 folks that fought in the Revolution on the American side. Of that, about 25,000 died. So you're looking, you know, somewhere in the vicinity of 8 or 9% died. But what's interesting is of the 25,000 who lost their lives in the American Revolution, only about 7,000 lost their lives to British bullets and enemy fire. 18,000 lost their lives to prisons, prisoner war camps, British prisons, torture in prison. And why would why would you be three times safer on the battlefield facing an armed army with live ammunition than you would be being captured and made a prisoner of war? Because Great Britain had defined the American Revolution as an act of treason, sedition, and insurrection, which allows them to use the death penalty in that stuff. So if they put you in prison.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

Any participation.

SPEAKER_02 7:11

That's right. Any participation, anything, anything that that turns into any type of violence, whether you started the violence or not, then suddenly you're guilty of a capital offense. And so, I mean, quite frankly, the British, when they were fighting the French or when they were fighting the Spanish, they were quite reasonable with their prisoners and they would give them all sorts of latitude and just give us your word, you're not going to fight us anymore, and we'll let you stay in a home where you want, you can rent or whatever. Not for the American Revolution, because they use that treason, sedition, insurrection. So the Founding Fathers were very, very, very, very, very, very careful to give narrow definitions to those so that the government couldn't take and happen if if the people in power in the government, the Democrats or the Republicans, don't like what the other side's doing, you suddenly call it treason or sedition or insurrection, and now you can use the force of law to stop it. So they gave some really narrow definitions. So that's the background for all this, if that makes sense. And I'm I'm kind of concerned that where both sides are getting right now, they're throwing those those terms around at each other so often because they see that now I've got to say on the right side, I don't see the the violence that we see on the left side with, you know, but part of that is you have the right to peaceably assemble and protest. And so a peaceably assemble means you're protesting ICE and you're protesting the deportation of illegals, and you want to keep illegal people here. All those protests are not turning violent. And that's not insurrection to go out and say we disagree with the law and we're protesting the law. That that's we've done that with America all the way through. We've always had protests against the law, and that's not insurrection until it turns violent, and you have actual acts of violence that lead to arrests. And not every arrest is always justified. We've seen that with what happened in January 6th. You're arresting grandmothers who weren't even inside the Capitol, but they were at the Capitol, and so now they're getting arrested. So both sides have to be super careful with this because retaliation comes in and out, and that's what the Founding Fathers tried to avoid was we don't want this stuff happening in the name of insurrection, treason, and sedition that happened to us under the British laws on treason, insurrection, and sedition. Is that all making sense, Rick?

SPEAKER_01 9:24

Is that the one? Yeah, yeah, no. And because it it it does make sense because we know how um the laws can be abused. I mean, that's that's part of why we, you know, there's so many grievances in the declaration where, you know, Jefferson and and and the boys, man, they were all saying, here's we've seen these problems. We've seen how bad it is. Uh he's even refused to pass laws that would, you know, make perfect sense and be good for everybody. And so they they dealt with all that. So they wanted a country where we defined those things carefully. And that's why you do have, you know, even I can remember as a legislator, you you you were always so careful about your wording. And and, you know, we always talk about even at Patriot Academy Leadership Congresses, when we're doing these simulations of a legislature, we say, don't forget the unintended consequences. Make sure you define everything really well, because you might end up passing something that opens the door, like you were saying earlier, because it's elastic, you can do a lot of things you didn't intend to do. And here you're talking about three words that literally can mean your death. I mean, if you if you get put in that bucket, um, there there can be a death penalty for some of these things. And so very important for it to be very specific. And I totally agree with your assessment. It's too easy for both sides to get riled up and throw everybody on the other side into that bucket. And we should we should want civil discourse, we should want people to peacefully protest, and then we should want the rule of law to be treat used equally on either side when they go beyond the peaceful protest.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

And by the way, I'll I'll add to this as well that you're much more likely to have a peaceful protest when your foundation has been moral and religious and not secular. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:55

And I mean, you and I might go out and protest, but we're not gonna hurt somebody or or burn somebody's property down because we disagree with it, because we just we understand the Ten Commandments too well.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

I mean, and we want to be righteously angry, right? Not just angry, so we want to be righteously angry. I remember Jim Garlow, I've said this on the program many times, but I remember him calling me when I was headed up to Chicago in 2020 to stand with those Romanian pastors that the mayor was going to tear down their church because they kept meeting. And uh and he said, he said, Rick, make sure your heart's right. Pray, you know, see, you know, ask God to search your heart, make sure that you're going in with the right attitude and you're not going just to ravel rouse, you know, and just to just to be a rebel. So even then he was he was you know thinking about exactly what you just said.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

And I I think the the use of the the terms today, much of it comes from that fact that we have sides opposing each other that don't have the same moral views anymore, don't have the same moral values, don't have the same religious values, if any religious values at all. And so once you get to that point, you cannot enforce uh good behavior by external laws. Good behavior comes from internal restraints. And so no matter how you define this stuff, it will not solve the problem if you don't have the internal uh value system to go with it. So all of that to go back to the definition. So and the definitions in defining this went back to the Constitution itself, which has some really clear definitions on some of this stuff, went back to the debates of the Constitutional Convention, how the Founding Fathers did it, compared that to the English, uh the English statutes, and English statutes are pretty consistent for most of the Western world. That's gonna be France and Spain and all those kind of Western European countries, they all kind of have the same viewpoint. America is the one that took a much narrower viewpoint, and it's because we had experienced that um that abuse. So here goes here goes definitions.

Treason In The US Constitution

SPEAKER_02 12:41

Uh treason, now, this is the common law definition in England, and and this is their definition out of the statute of 1351. So imagine that we they define this essentially nearly 700 years ago. High treason includes compassing or imagining the death of the king or the queen or the heir. So even imagining the death is treason. Violating the king's consort, eldest daughter, or heir's wife, and that would be the queen or the the eldest daughter or the the the prince's wife, so messing around with with royal women is is a treason offense, levying war against the king in his own realm, giving adherence or aid to the king's enemies. And so Blackstone dealt with all this. He defined it, and of course, Blackstone is one that the Founding Fathers really used. He was a judge in England that brought reason to a lot of their law and narrowed it down to really getting it back kind of to a biblical foundation. So he says, all right, it it really boils down to having attempts to dethrone the king. If you're trying to do that and you take up arms to do that, even if you say it's under the pretense of religion or laws, if you're using arms to try to remove the civil leader, uh then you're you're into a treason situation. And so when you start when you start pulling down all the laws, now you're levying war against it. Now the Constitution didn't use that definition. So and Blackstone is the one who warned that when you have an indefinite definition of high treason like the British did, it leads to arbitrary power, which was the the founding fathers you know complaint against the king. He's got too much arbitrary power. So the U.S. Constitution specifically says treason against, and I'm just reading this, treason against the United States shall consist only in levying war against them or adhering to their enemies, giving the enemies aid and comfort. That's it. That's two things. That's that that's what treason is. It's not what you say, it's not how you behave, it's not trying to undermine immigration laws, it's levying war against the United States or giving aid to enemies who are trying to overthrow the United States. That's treason. So short of that, that's so much less than what Western civilization has used for those 700 years. So that's that's where you get it. And the Federalist papers really cover a lot of this too. Federalist number 84 and number 43, um Hamilton and Madison both talked about why they narrowed the definition down. Um and there was, you know, early whiskey war rebellion or whiskey rebellion, and that was not treason, and and so that's that's where a lot of this comes from. So that's the first one, and that's real different from the way people use that today.

Sedition And Insurrection Explained

SPEAKER_02 15:28

Um and the second one is sedition, and sedition means to go apart. And this is kind of a more elastic kind of a common law concept, but it's trying to disturb the tranquility of the state. And you can do that by words or writings or stirring up mobs, uh, hatred, discontent, uh, things that would tend toward rebellion and disorder without amounting to actual levying war. So this is the Marxist kind of thing that they do to create all sorts of violent conflict without actually levying war. And you go in and stir up violent conflict, and it's not necessarily about having recourse to changing things, it's about stirring up violence. And so that's that's more of sedition. Um Webster, who who was himself a judge, when he wrote his dictionary, he defined it as a factious commotion of the people or a tumultuous assembly of men rising in opposition to law or to the administration of justice and disturbing the public peace. Sedition is a rising commotion of less extent than an insurrection, and both are less than a rebellion. So notice that they put treason up top, then insurrection, and then sedition. That's kind of the the three rankings. And the third one is is insurrection is giving active opposition um against civil authority by resistance to the execution of laws. So this is where maybe some of the violence against ICE might rise to the level of insurrection. Uh the protest, the college protest, barricading streets, uh surrounding offices, that's not insurrection necessarily. It's not uh a rising of violence to the authority. And and it differs from rebellion in that with rebellion you you're trying to overthrow the government, and and this is not trying to overthrow. Insurrection is just you know trying to stir up violence. So all of it deals with trying to stir up unwarranted violence for no real reason. You just don't like what's happening, you're gonna get violent. And and that's kind of the way those three things go. And I'm telling you, on both sides, most of what's happening is not that. Now, when you take the burning cities and and you know, doing doing stuff like burning cities and burning churches like we saw uh, you know, after the the the riots in Minnes Minnesota, that's a different situation. That's totally different. You're not using the rule of law to try to solve anything you're trying to destroy. And that's where you do see those things come. So that's a long explanation, Rick, but that's kind of where that is.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Yeah, man, that that that's so good. It really does help. And and I think the thing that came to mind as you were describing that is um in in in both of these situations, the January 6th thing, uh well, all three of these situations, the the 2020, you know, BLM Antifa riots, the January 6th thing, and then, you know, of course, all of all of the ICE stuff that's happened over the last year or so. Um there used to be more of an intellectual honesty in in the leaders of both sides where they would say what you just said, where they where they would say, Hey, what you're doing is wrong and it fits into this category. We're not gonna overcharge you as a DA because we don't like your politics, uh, which is what happened. And and I think I think some on both sides. I certainly saw it in the J6 stuff where they threw all these charges in. They literally took totally unrelated statutes and criminal charges that had nothing to do with what happened on January 6th and and put them in there just so that they could make it a felony, and just so that they could get into, you know, these these outrageous um uh punishments and and and number of years in prison. And and the way you just described all three terms helps so much to say, okay, yeah, there when there's really bad behavior, we need to put it in the right category so that we're we're not just lumping everything together and then getting in a situation where you have tyranny, where you have whoever's in power can can throw, you know, not not the actual book, they're making up a book literally as they as they throw it out. And I think your assessment's spot on. I I think a lot of this stuff that happens is is sedition where they're just creating violence and it's just a factious commotion, as you said from uh from from Webster, but it's not uh you know, it's not treason and and it's not even trying to prevent a particular law. Now the I stuff I think you could say they are prevent that that you could call insurrection because it is, in fact, in like you said, in some of those cases, they are trying to stop the the actual um application of the law. If you're just standing out there with a sign and protesting and saying, I don't like what's being done, that's not insurrection. That's that's literally just giving your opinion and using your public speech and your and your uh First Amendment right to that and and and to you know basically ask for a redress or grievances. But if you're actually, you know, attacking the cops or you're pulling out in front of them or you're preventing them from doing their job, now you might be getting into that that's I'm gonna I'm gonna create a little situation here, Rick.

SPEAKER_02 20:11

I'm gonna point out that that's what the abolitionists did with the Kansas and Nebraska Act and the Fugitive Slave Law. The federal law says if you're black and someone accuses you of being a slave, you're going to you're going into slavery, whether you're a slave or not. And so there were all sorts of Christian, religious, uh, anti-slavery people who broke that law and kept the marshals from enforcing it, would stand between the marshals and and and black groups and say, look, you're not going to do that. That's the MLA, MLK kind of stuff, too, that was happening in the southern states, where they were taking a lot of those laws and misinterpreting them so that they could have the end they wanted. And I don't think that standing up to that kind of law, I I think I would have been standing against that federal law in in 1850 and 1854, the Fugitive Slave Act and Kansas. I don't, you know, I don't know. I wasn't there. Maybe I would be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

Because you would you would have said rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And you and you know, to be fair, I think some of the people that are out there protesting ICE, even though I totally disagree with their position, I think they genuinely believe that. They think that they're helping families and people that are getting caught up in some of this and being deported. And so some of them are coming from, I think, a good place. Um, but yeah, yeah, I'm and that's why it's so important to define these things and to properly fight for what you b believe in. Uh man, bro, we could we could we could finish out the program with this, but we got to take a quick break.

Break Thomas Jefferson Draft Reprint

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Very late in the program for our break today. Stay with us, folks. You're listening to the Wall Builder Show.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

Hey guys, this is Tim Barton from Wall Builders. I'm gonna let you know about a new resource that should be a tool in your toolbox. This is the reprint of Thomas Jefferson's original draft of the Declaration of Independence. Now, there's lots of reasons it would be cool to own a reprint like this, but one of the things that I want to highlight is not only Is this a reprint that is in Thomas Jefferson's own hand and cursive? It shows some of his edits along the way, which is really fun, but it also shows what Thomas Jefferson thought was the most significant grievance in the original draft. It's the longest grievance, it's the last grievance. It was a grievance against the slave trade, arguing actually also against slavery, and arguing for the humanity of all that were in slaves. Thomas Jefferson thought that was the most important. Now, it didn't make it in the final draft, and we will explain why in the resource packet you get when you order one of these copies. But friends, this is something that you want in your collection. Go to wallboilder.com and look for Thomas Jefferson's original draft of the Declaration of Independence.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Welcome back to the Wall Builder Show.

Education Shapes Conscience And Conduct

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Thanks for staying with us today. Great, great question. In fact, I I'm trying to remember, David, if the last time we did a program where we did the whole program on one question, but I think we, man, let's just stay with us. This is so interesting. You got my my my for in my case, you can you can smell wood burning uh because that my brain's going. Uh but it's uh uh it's really what you laid out all three of them so well. I we need to start teaching this to our people.

SPEAKER_02 23:07

Well, that that was gonna be my next point. That the biggest problem we have right now with everything we're discussing is a public education problem.

unknown 23:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

Because like you said, th there's a lot of people who are sincere and thinking they're helping immigrants by keeping them from being deported and that we should have open borders. Where did they get that nonsense idea? They got it out of their education, they they got it from colleges, they got it from public education. I I'm which that's I mean, I go back to what Jesus said in Luke 6, 40. Every student when he's fully trained will be like his teacher. Well, this is what they've been teaching for a long time in schools, 20 years that we know of. And why should we be surprised that these the these students who are now voting adults who are in in a younger generation have a whole different view of civil disobedience and what's right and wrong, what the government should do. They weren't taught the Constitution, they don't have a clue what it is. They they couldn't recite any of it to you, probably. But they're they're they're I don't want to say this, they're acting according to the conscience they've been taught. And by the way, we know from the scriptures that you can change your conscience. Uh Paul talks about that. Some people can't eat meat offered idols, he says, 'cause their conscience offends. But he said, but if you get in the scriptures and find the truth about that, you won't be offended at it. That's why he could eat meat offered idols when others couldn't. And so we know that conscience is actually trained a lot by the education you get, and the scriptures make that clear. So I I think the whole thing we're talking here, the whole reason we're having this discussion is because the education system has been so far out of touch for so long that now we're gonna have to, you know, the Bible says you you you reap the wind, uh you sow the wind and you reap the whirlwind. We're reaping a whirlwind, but at the same time, I think it's coming back the other way. I think we're getting control of education again. I think we're seeing things head in the right direction. I think that we're gonna have to have some some pretty good slap around fights here, you know, like what we're talking about now with protesters, etc., for the next several years. But I think it's coming back the right direction, bro.

Violent Jihad Warning And Closing

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Hey, uh David, I know it's not uh even our our topic, but in the final minute, just any thoughts from you on the uh plane, the the situation yesterday with the uh Israeli plane where the pilot tried to crash the plane and the and stabbed his co-pilot and tried to kill a hundred Israelis, and just a reminder that that jihad is not just a cultural jihad in all these nations, uh, but there is violent jihad as well.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

Yeah, it's really that's significant because even see UAE is a very moderate nation. We've talked to them talked about them in the last couple of weeks over the fact that they're not ru they're not Sharia folks. And that's why Sharia folks will attack them as well. So trying to take down a UAE plane filled with with Jews, that's not the UAE doing that. That's radicals that are working against the UAE as well. So I I look at that and say, yep, that's that's the problem. UAE is not the problem, they're a target, just like the West is, just like Israel is, just like America is, and that's why Sharia and those who hold to Sharia have gotta we've gotta deal with this issue in America or we're gonna get way out of hand. UAE is a place that does not like Sharia, does not tolerate Sharia, and so you see even them having the fight that they don't want because they disagree with that kind of nonsense.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Well, and thank God for the Todd Beamer-like uh passengers that intervened and and uh saved that uh from happening. But yeah, just a a uh uh sober reminder uh for all of us. So be in prayer for all of those families and uh and for the you know the cultural jihad fight that we have right here in America happening right now. Thanks for listening today. We've got a lot of good news to share with you tomorrow, so you definitely don't want to miss that. You've been listening to the Foundations of Freedom Thursday program for the Wallbooker Show.