Welcome To Faith And Culture

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Welcome to the Intersection of Faith and Culture. Thanks for joining us on the Wall Builder Show today. Rick Green here with David Barton and Tim Barton. Websites wallbuilders.com and also wallbuilders.show. And of course, always taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective. Later in the program, our friend Professor Mark David Hall will be with us. We're going to be talking about Abraham Lincoln. Got a great question from the audience on this one. So it's going to feel a little bit like a Foundation Freedom Thursday, but it's been a while, guys. It's been a while since we ranked the presidents and compared our list. So if we're going to talk about Lincoln, we might as well just at least throw out our top five presidents because my list has changed in the last 15 months.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

That's interesting. Does that mean President Trump is uh moved from two to one or one to two? Uh what has changed for you there, Rick?

SPEAKER_01 0:57

He he definitely didn't go down on the list. He just keeps going up on the list. Keeps going up on the list, even past Calvin Coolidge. Uh, you know, I mean, as much as I love Coolidge, very constitutional and uh did not centralize power and did not, you know, do things that were anti-constitutional and reverse so many of those horrible executive orders uh from previous presidents. But Trump just seems

Rethinking What Makes A Great President

SPEAKER_01 1:21

to get the job done. And I I don't know, I alright, I'm gonna I'm gonna propose to list you guys in a different way than I've ever done it before. I usually just say, What's your top five presidents? But what we do when we say that is we think only of the man and and their whole life and what they did. So we always list Washington because you know he's the indispensable man of the revolution, all of the things he did even prior to being president. And it's not really just based on what he did as president. So I'm gonna ask you guys for top five as president. So in their four years or eight years, I don't think FDR is gonna be in the top five, so I don't even have to say whatever it was he ended up with, thirteen or fourteen years. I can't remember when he died in his fourth term, but um but whatever their term was, ranked in what they did, what they had to face as president, and then what they did as president, maybe we should just go top three. I don't know, up to you guys. If you're only thinking president, I I'll do that change your list.

SPEAKER_03 2:15

I'm I'm gonna give you a thought, an analysis kind of thought. Uh the if I were to choose my five top presidents, it's probably not the five most important presidents, if that makes sense. I think there's a difference. Because I I I think you have to have Washington because we don't exist without Washington. But what I've noticed is about every 80 years we go through a huge national crisis that determines whether we're going to continue to exist as a nation or not. So if you take Washington, all right, let's say the you know the the 1780s, 1790s, and go 80 years, now we're at the 1860s, 1850s, 1860s. I think Lincoln saved the nation. I think it easily could have gone in a

The 80 Year Crisis Pattern

SPEAKER_03 3:00

bad direction. I think Lincoln saved the nation. If you go another 80 years, now we're looking at the 1940s, and I think FDR saved the nation, especially as a Democrat. Um, the Republicans, Democrats, neither one were pro-military to any great degree at that point in time. And the fact that he was willing as a Democrat to mobilize the military, to turn out, you know, a a tank every 55 minutes and a Liberty ship every four days, and and to to commit the resources he did. You know, his social programs for me are way too big, but what he did to save the nation, I think, is big.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Now, Dad, hang on, let me let me ask a qu a clarifying question on that. Um, was that something that FDR was advocating, or because I haven't looked into this enough. Uh I I I don't know. Was there somebody on his staff that was saying, sir, we have to do this? Obviously, if the president's the one making the decision, they're the one that takes the blame or they get it uh get the credit. But I'm just curious who who would it have been around him? Uh, right, is it people that have been background military? You you have guys from uh the World War I, was it a a Pershing, uh, you know, a patent and Eisenhower? Who would have been the guys saying, We have to get on this, let's go. What I I just I'm curious the voices around him, because he doesn't strike me as being this really huge pro-military guy or having a military background, which is again wide open question makes me curious. If there was somebody on his staff administration, military background that had some foresight understanding. Um, I I don't know how that unfolds, and I'm sure now there's gonna be a lot of listeners uh recommending books for me uh to go do the research and find.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Um but uh yeah, do you know who was around him in that moment?

SPEAKER_03 4:47

No, I I can tell you that there was a bunch of staff around him that really got it. Uh, because you you have Hitler starting to do stuff back in the 30s, 1935, et cetera. And his staff started saying, sir, this could be a big issue. This could reach all the way to America. And so as Hitler starts moving across Europe, they start saying, we've got to get a military going. And so they start mobilizing for the military in the late 1930s, uh, well before we get into the war. So it still took us a year after the after we got hit at Pearl Harbor before we could send troops, but we were so far down the road, and I I've been intrigued with how well he did on intelligence, how they were intercepting Japanese messages three or four years before we got hit at Pearl Harbor. Um it's just fascinating. So I I look at him and say he did a lot of wise stuff. He was surrounded with wise people, and I think he made wise decisions. He he takes really Eisenhower, who's a colonel at the start of the war, and he's a five-star general by the end of the war. He saw an Eisenhower and he kept promoting Eisenhower. So I I really am impressed with what he did in that war situation. And then you you go another 80 years or so, and here we are today, and Trump. And I think Trump is putting the nation back together. Had the progressives continued with another term, uh I don't think we would be looking at what we're looking at right now. If we if we were continuing from Biden over these last two years, I think we wouldn't hardly be here anymore. So those are the ones I think are the five most important people when you look at them. All right, that's four. Good boy, damn.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

That is, I mean, I I'm not great at math, but I'm pretty good at counting to five.

SPEAKER_03 6:27

The one that I didn't put in there that I should have put in there is is akin to FDR, and that's Eisenhower. Because what Eisenhower did in that post-war time to get ready for the Cold War and communism that he saw coming, he prepared us for communism and the rise of communism when it was not yet a big force. And he saw it coming, and so I think he's the fifth guy. I think those are the five most important presidents we've had.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

Now I know we have to Mark is waiting to talk to us, and I know we have to get to Mark. I just find it interesting. I just looked this up. I was trying to remember where Eisenhower was when World War II uh unfolds. And Dad, I don't know if you remember where he was. He was somebody's assistant, advisor. Yeah. In the Philippines. He was the advisor to General Douglas MacArthur. Yeah. And then he is elevated beyond anyway. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 7:20

And to build on that, Tim, MacArthur had retired. And it was it was uh FDR who brought him out of retirement and said, No, no, no, you're not retiring. I'm calling you back to service. We need you in the Pacific. And that's the kind of decisions I see from Eisenhower that tells me, you know, social programs aside, he was a great guy in helping save the nation.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Okay, well, well, circling back, because I again, Mark's waiting to talk to us. Uh,

Lincoln Tyrant Claims And How To Respond

SPEAKER_00 7:44

one of the reasons that it's important, Rick, as you set up this question, Lincoln is is pretty much always going to be in our top five because of of how he was able to hold the union together. Now, with that being said, depending on what state you go to in the current union, there's a lot of people that have a lot of feels about Abraham Lincoln, that maybe he was a tyrant dictator. Uh, right. I mean, honestly, it's not all that different than if uh you go to a Democrat state and talk to a liberal today about President Trump and they're like, he's a fascist, and you're like, you're crazy. That's not what he's doing. There's still some divided thoughts and sentiments on Abraham Lincoln, and uh that I think is part of why we wanted to get Bark Hall on to get an update from him on lots of things, but also uh let's let him have a jump into answering this question, and then let's just critique him. That's gonna be way more fun. Let's let him answer.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Well, I I I gave up my right to give a list because the one guy I said we wouldn't have on a list is the first guy David talks about, FDR. So I I clearly bombed the question from the very beginning. No, this would be great. Let's get Mark David Hall and uh we'll talk about the linking question from the audience and then we'll comment on that one when when we finish the interview. So stay with us, folks. Mark David Hall, our special guest, when we come back from the break. You're listening to the Wall Builder Show.

John Wise And Declaration Origins

SPEAKER_00 9:11

This is Tim Barton from Wall Builders with another moment from American history. In the early 1700s, the Reverend John Wise preached that all men were created equal, that taxation without representation was tyranny, and that God's preferred form of government was the consent of the government, all of which is language recognizable in the Declaration of Independence. Why? Because in 1772, the Stons of Liberty, led by founders such as Sam Adams and John Hancock, reprinted and distributed the Reverend Wise's sermons. So four years later, much of the Declaration reflected the language of those sermons by John Wise. In 1926, on the 150th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence, President Calvin Coolidge affirmed the thoughts in the Declaration can very largely be traced back to what John Wise was saying. Few today know that the Declaration was so strongly influenced by the Reverend John Wise. For more information on this and other stories, go to wallbuilders.com.

Guelzo, Habeas Corpus, And Wartime Power

SPEAKER_01 10:10

Welcome back to the Wall Builder Show. Thanks for staying with us. Dr. Mark David Hall back with us, Professor of Politics at the Robertson School of Government at Regent University, and great friend to the Wall Builders program. Hey, thanks for coming on, brother. Thanks so much for having me. Hey, we got a great question on Abraham Lincoln. But first of all, congrats on the White House video that went viral. You did such a great job in that. What a great summation, and uh so many people impacted by that. Enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

Thank you. Yeah, I was honored to do it. And of course, for the topic was the faith of the founders. Um, all the videos are good, but I'm glad the White House chose to emphasize that many of the founders were good, godly Orthodox Christians who looked to the Bible and the Christian political tradition as they um broke from Great Britain and created our constitutional order. So, yeah, it was a real honor. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

It was it was good. Well done and and uh concise and and just glad to see so many people watch that and get that get that education. Well, let's um let's jump in. Here's what the uh listener uh wrote in. I have a friend who believes uh a lot of conspiracies surrounding Abraham Lincoln, that he was a dictator at suppressed free speech, et cetera. I was curious if you know of any good material on Lincoln that I can read that would help me better defend him. I wanted to also hear uh what y'all had to say on the subject. And of course, you know, in the David Tim, David and Tim Barton and Rick Green conversation, it was, wow, we need Mark David Hall on this one.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

So so what are your thoughts, man? Thank you. I I would say pretty much anything written by Alan Guelzo, the great student of Abraham Lincoln and the Civil War, a fine historian now at the Hamilton Center down at the University of Florida. He has a great book, The Faith of Abraham Lincoln, that I think very treat accurately and fairly treats his faith and treats some of these claims that um that Lincoln was a dictator. You know, some of them have a kernel of truth. For instance, um Abraham Lincoln um basically abolished the writ of habeas corpus in Maryland. He's of course trying very, very difficult very hard to keep Maryland in the Union. Uh Maryland and Virginia, of course, surround Washington, D.C. Virginia has left the Union. And if Maryland leaves the Union, and Maryland, of course, was a slave state, um, we would be in a lot of trouble, we being the North in this case, being the free states. And so he just simply abolished Rid of habeas corpus so he could arrest troublemakers and um and keep the peace and keep Maryland in the Union. Now that is constitutionally problematic because of course the um U.S. Constitution says that Congress can abolish or um pause the writ of habeas corpus, but not the chief executive. But there's some times in American history, I think, where political leaders, where statesmen just need to act. A good example of this is um Thomas Jefferson, when he had a chance to buy Louisiana from France, he was really worried that he did not have the constitutional authority to do so. He thought maybe we should amend the Constitution so that we could buy Louisiana. But when push came to shove, it was such a good real estate bargain that he went ahead and did it, and thank goodness he did.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

Yeah, no kidding. So a lot a lot of people think we're for that one today for sure. Uh and just make sure I got the book right. So this is Our Ancient Faith. That's the one by um uh Alan Guelzo.

SPEAKER_02 13:13

Um no, well, uh that may be a book by him. I I'm thinking of the um a book called The Faith of Abraham Lincoln, unless I've mistaken the title.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

No, gotcha. Okay, good. And uh and I was just looking up his website. Looks like all his books are there on uh alanguelzo.com, so check check that out as well. Um Dr. Hall, there seems to be a turning point of of interest in these subjects and uh the the I I want to say it this way, the the truth getting out. In other words, there's been so much revision over the last 50, 60 years and controlled so much by um you know most educational institutions, the Smithsonian, or what we're even seeing exposes on the Smithsonian now. It just seems like there's a real turning point happening right now. I mean, are you feeling the same thing? Because you're out there on the front lines with with so many of these debates.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

You know, sometimes there needs to be a revision, right? I think um shortly after his presidency, Dwight D. Eisenhower was seen as a as a failed president, as someone who was, you know, used to being a good military general but just couldn't handle being president, didn't know what he was up to. Um historians have gone back and looked at that. Over the last 20, 30 years, they've revised the earlier take on Dwight D. Eisenhower and said actually he was an excellent president. He knew what he was doing, he was um involved and he was pursuing very important policies, such as checking the Soviets in very important ways. But the sort of revision you're talking about, I agree with. They're journalists, want to tear down the American America's founders, want to tear down a great president like Abraham Lincoln. And I think some of that's just driven by progressive ideology, some of it's driven by Marxism, some of it's driven by an anti-American ideology. And yeah, it's very problematic. And so it's our job as um as as writers of history to challenge this, to push back against it and say, no, wait a minute, let's um, you know, let's be careful in these claims. So take the claim about Abraham Lincoln. I I think it's fair to say that we don't want to hold Abraham Lincoln up as a saint. We can point to some of his actions that are maybe problematic from a constitutional perspective, and we might be critical of those, but again, if we step back and look at an imbalance, the union is threatened, Washington, D.C. is threatened, something has to be done. I I I think, in my personal opinion, his actions are justifiable even if constitutionally problematic.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

And even just taking the whole package, I mean, uh, you know, he he was faced with maybe the toughest presidency of all in in terms of what he had to deal with and and to hold the union together to get to the point that he did to, you know, I I'm like you. I'm okay, yeah, there's some areas that are that are problematic, but I mean I'm me personally, I I rank him number two out of all my favorite, all my well, not my favorite, my all of the presidents in terms of their effectiveness and what they did to save the country and and keep keep the country together in his current case. So yeah, I mean, overall record, I don't know how we could say anything other than, you know, wow, uh he accomplished a a great presidency, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 16:19

Periodically there are surveys taken of academic historians and political scientists and such, and we should take them with a grain of salt when it comes to recent presidents. So someone like Ronald Reagan, I think, is one of the greatest presidents, but he's always ranked very, very low because I think many of the historians um used to be anyway, grew up when he was president. They're progressives, they don't like him, and even more recent historians tend in that direction. So if you leave out the recent presidents from, let's say, um, Nixon on up, historians always agree number one is either George Washington or Abraham Lincoln, number two is the other. I mean, it's just consistent. Liberal historians, conservative historians, pretty much anyone except the Southern agrarians that are still kind of mad about the Civil War will rank Lincoln as either number one or number two. And I think that's uh a very fair ranking.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

Yeah, you know, it's funny you mentioned that though, because we we get a lot of hate mail sometimes when we bring up this topic and we say positive things about Lincoln, uh, because there are, there's definitely still people that hold on to uh just just the the anger after Reconstruction got passed down and they and they still feel it very much so. Um and in some ways I can understand, but you know, if you step back and look at the whole thing, um I'm thankful. I'm thankful. And I think the faith part um is an important part to remember about him as well. Um so good, so good. Uh catch us up on you. So uh you've been at Regent now for uh a few years. Tell us how things are going at Regent. When Michelle Bachman, our friend, is there as well, and and we always encourage people to keep Regent on their list of uh possible uh colleges to attend. We've had a lot of Patriot Academy kids go there and go through the law school there as well. But uh catch us up on you and what's going on there at Regent.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

Thank you. Yeah, Regent is going a full bore. The law school is excellent. I'm not in the law school, but I know a lot of the law profs, and they are great. In my opinion, of Regent Law was already high, but it's higher than it was. I'm in the Robertson School of Government, of course. They brought me in because we started a new PhD program. I almost literally cannot think of a better place in the country you could go to study American history, especially the American founding, religious liberty, church state relations. And I'm not just talking about myself. There are a number of good colleagues there that one could work with. As I said, we have a PhD program, we have an MA program, it's solid. The undergraduate college is growing. The honors program is remarkable. So, yeah, highest, highest marks. I do have news for you. We just learned, I think it was just last week, that Dean Bachman is stepping away as dean. She's going to focus on um Israel and combating anti-Semitism in her public speaking, and she'll still be attempting to raise funds for Regent. So she'll be uh involved with Regent. I think she'll still be a promoter of the Robertson School of Government, but she won't be my um direct dean. And so essentially we have basically an interim arrangement for this upcoming year, and we'll see what they do with it in the future. If I can mention,

Religious Liberty Rankings And New Protections

SPEAKER_02 19:06

Rick, one thing. I direct a study for um First Liberty, the religious liberty advocacy group called Religious Liberty in the States. Just last week, we released our 2026 findings, and we have a new leader. Um basically, we look at 50 distinct ways that states can choose to protect religious liberty or not. And Arkansas has rate has shot to the top. Arkansas was about 25th in the nation three years ago, and they've passed a series of laws that have now made them number one in the nation. They surpassed Florida, which was number one last year. So long as go. Yeah, no, it's great. It's fantastic. And Tennessee did wonderful as well. Florida's still up there, number three, I think. So I would encourage your listeners to go to Religious Liberty in the States. The whole study is online. Um, the study, all the data, and whatnot, but in a very accessible form. So I would uh really encourage any of your listeners who are interested in religious liberty to go look at the study.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

I'm I'm gonna guess that that you know, for a state to move that much on the list in that short uh of a period of time. I mean, clearly the governor had to have a lot to do with that. Sarah Huckope Sanders, um, we've got some great friends in the legislature there that were able to get some good things passed in the last couple of years. I mean, that's a lot of movement in in three years. So there had to be good leadership to get to get them there.

SPEAKER_02 20:23

You know, that's that's exactly right. Um they passed uh a wonderful back in 2015, a religious freedom restoration act, which is the most important thing a state could have, but then recently they passed a good medical conscience protection. And then they passed a wonderful bill that basically protects anyone who might be asked to participate in a wedding ceremony to which they have religious objections. So it protects clergy, it protects judges and other public officials, but very importantly, it protects individuals like bakers and um florists and musicians who might be asked to participate in a same-sex wedding ceremony and yet they have religious convictions. I'm thinking here of a Jack Phillips. So no longer now in the states of Mississippi and Arkansas, can you have a situation where someone like a Jack Phillips or an Aaron and Melissa Klein are basically persecuted out of business? I guess Jack Phillips is still in business. The Kleins aren't. Um so yeah, Arkansas is making some real important strides, and you're exactly right. The government was at the center of this advancement.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Well, Mark, I don't I don't usually admit this to people, but uh I'm a razorback myself. I was born in Little Rock. I got to Texas as quick as I could. I'm an American by birth and a Texan only by the grace of God. But anyway, that's great to hear about Arkansas and Tennessee and just just progress, right, in in all of these states. Uh Regent.edu, for those of you uh that as we were talking about the incredible university there, and also not only um the right philosophy and foundations being taught there, an absolutely gorgeous campus and and and beautiful place to be uh there in Virginia as well. Dr. Mark David Hall, bless you, brother. Great having you on. Let's get you back soon. Thank you very much. Always a pleasure. Stay with us, folks. We'll be right back with David and Tim Barr.

Jefferson’s Draft Declaration Reprint Offer

SPEAKER_00 22:04

Hey guys, this is Tim Barton from Wall Builders. I'm gonna let you know about a new resource that should be a tool in your toolbox. This is the reprint of Thomas Jefferson's original draft of the Declaration of Independence. Now, there's lots of reasons it would be cool to own a reprint like this, but one of the things that I want to highlight is not only is this a reprint that is in Thomas Jefferson's own hand and cursive, it shows some of his edits along the way, which is really fun, but it also shows what Thomas Jefferson thought was the most significant grievance in the original draft. It's the longest grievance, it's the last grievance. It was a grievance against the slave trade, arguing actually also against slavery, and arguing for the humanity of all that were enslaved. Thomas Jefferson thought that was the most important. Now, it didn't make it in the final draft, and we will explain why in the resource packet you get when you order one of these copies. But friends, this is something that you want in your collection. Go to wallbooters.com and look for Thomas Jefferson's original draft of the Declaration of Independence.

Civil War Motives And Historical Nuance

SPEAKER_01 23:06

Welcome back to the Wall Booter Show. Thanks for staying with us. Always great having Mark David Hall. Appreciate his time. Appreciate him coming on. And uh of course, uh Tim, you said it right before the interview. I mean, Lincoln is is uh still controversial to this day. And of course, they I mean, you know, we're went to war with ourselves. I mean, we brother against brother, it was a you know horrific time. So whoever comes out on the winning side is gonna be hated for generations, sometimes rightfully so, sometimes not rightfully so. Uh but to David's point earlier, you know, when you're holding the country together or you're foreseeing uh you know things that are gonna tear the country apart and finding ways to prevent that from happening, that's gotta get you on the list, as we were talking about earlier. Hey, you guys never did give your list, by the way. Who who who are your guys?

SPEAKER_00 23:49

Well, hang on.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

Well, I said I lost my right to give my list because I gave one guy not to be on the list, and he's the first guy you talked about.

SPEAKER_00 23:57

Well, and I think we have to acknowledge, guys, with only a couple minutes left. Um when when when people today, I think because I know there's some people listening going, how can somebody think Lincoln's a bad guy? And then there's other people listening going, well, of course Lincoln was a bad guy. One of the things that we acknowledge is as you study history, you realize there's a lot of moving parts in the midst of it. When when people talk about the motivation behind a lot of what happened in the Civil War, and some people go, Well, it was clearly states right, and others go, it's clearly slavery. Well, there is a lot of clarity depending on who you talk to. Are you talking about the political leaders from the South? Because they were very clear it was the issue of slavery. But if you talk to some of the Confederate soldiers, they were literally just fighting because there were union soldiers that were invading their states. And I'm saying this not as a criticism or defense by and large right now, but acknowledging when you have three million people involved in this thing, you're gonna have three million ideas and opinions. And a lot of times what you do as as you study history is you try to synthesize, and at times you will be forced to generalize and say, here's what the majority of sentiment was, here's where it really was coming from. And again, we can look with clarity at some of the political leaders because many of them gave very noted famous speeches. They had very clear writings. And when you read a lot of the writings of the the Confederate leaders, they were incredibly clear. The number one reason they wanted to secede was the issue of slavery. So saying it's not that slavery wasn't part of this is totally wrong. But then arguing that Lincoln was totally justified and good in what he did, well, well, we could acknowledge, right? Like we can look at President Trump and go, man, we love overall what he's doing, but we can acknowledge there's a couple places we're like, yeah, that probably wasn't the best thing, but we would not conclude that President Trump is therefore a bad leader. And I say all this acknowledging there's some nuance in this, and I appreciate that Mark David Hall had to answer most of that question uh and navigate. I'm I'm grateful that we have friends like that that can come on and uh they'll take some of those bullets for us. Uh, not that we're scared to, we take bullets all the time. But dad, I do think we need to come back maybe, maybe later this week. Let's come back and let's let's dive into maybe uh some of our our noted presidents and Rick. I appreciate what you said um for what they did while president, not for who they were as a person, because that might change the list just a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

Yeah, that'll be uh well the listeners will get to think about it. They'll get to they'll get to weigh in maybe themselves. Maybe we'll get some questions for Foundations of Freedom Thursday of what do you think of this particular president and and what they did? And who's done more than President Trump? I bet somebody sends that in. That one's gonna happen for sure. So anyway, fun show today. Thank you for listening. You've been listening to the Wall Builder Show.