Listener Questions And Weekly Format\n

SPEAKER_01 0:07

This is the Intersection of Faith and Culture, the Wall Builder Show, taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective. And the topic of the day is your choice. So send in your questions to radio at wallbuilders.com, radio at wallbuilders.com. Every Thursday we do something called Foundations of Freedom. And it's a chance to dive into topics more specific to what you're curious about. Maybe the Founding Fathers, maybe something they did or didn't do, maybe going all the way back to the pilgrims, maybe you got something that's happening right now in Washington, D.C. or in your local state. But send those questions in to us at radio at wallbuilders.com. And then tomorrow we'll have Good News Friday for you. So you don't want to miss that as well. Lots of good news David and Tim have piled up, ready to share tomorrow. So let's jump into those questions. By the way, that's David and Tim Barton, if you're a first-time listener. I'm Rick Green, and we welcome you to

Franklin’s Call To Prayer\n

SPEAKER_01 0:55

the program. Ted is up first. I don't know how this happened, but a Californian gets to ask the first question today. And he says, after Benjamin Franklin suggested prayer at the Constitutional Convention, did Congress do it? I heard that Congress did not start the daily prayer sessions. Did they reject it? But each member started praying separately at home. Things seem to turn after that, but I don't know how it worked itself out in detail. Also, if they did not accept prayer in Congress, uh, do we have any of the ministers' names and prayers on record? Thank you, Ted. And so, guys, just context for our audience. This would be uh at the Constitutional Convention, not the early Continental Congresses where the declaration was done, but 1787, that long summer, that hot summer with the doors and windows shut, and some really cool scenes depicted in the new movie, A Great Awakening, about George Whitfield and Benjamin Franklin's friendship. Okay, so tossing it to you guys. So he definitely has an amazing speech there in the middle, I guess what, we're five weeks into the convention, maybe? It might have been further along than that. And people are leaving, it's fallen apart. He gives this fantastic speech depicted in the movie, and uh something changed. What happened, guys?

SPEAKER_03 1:58

Yeah, it's interesting. There's there's some pretty decent records on what happened there. Uh, there's not exhaustive records, but there's enough to know the story. And so it it's like these guys, all the way through Congress, all the way through the Continental Congress, Ed been Praying regularly. They had two to three chaplains every Congress that they had in Congress. And so it was like, I I don't know if it's one of the things that you just kind of take for granted because we've been doing this for 15 years in Congress kind of stuff. And they got there and they started having debates, which they had all the time, but there was less agreement on it and a little maybe a little more testy is what it kind of seems like. And so at that point, people start leaving and going home. There's indications that George Mason had it. He was going back to Virginia, and other guys were were leaving and going home and and just you know, kind of frustrated, actually.

SPEAKER_02 2:49

And that to clarify, when you're saying Congress, they've been there for 15 years, that would have been the Continental Congress during the American Revolution. That would have been starting in 1774 with the first Continental Congress, going all the way to 1783 when we had the peace treaty of Paris, and then you have the Articles of the Confederation. So 1787, they're back in Independence Hall, which is the same place they had been meeting in Congress pretty much since America became a nation. But this time they're not there to meet as congressmen per se, they are there to try to resolve the problem with needing a new constitution. They knew the Articles of Confederation was terrible. And so, Dad, when you say they used to pray every day, during the American Revolution, this is a very important part of Benjamin Franklin's speech, um, which Rick, as you mentioned, is in the movie The Great Awakening. And what I loved so much about the speech in the movie The Great Awakening is that he quoted the whole speech that is recorded in James Madison's notes. It's what Benjamin Franklin said, this is what I said. I mean, just it's incredible that the whole speech was in the movie. It was great, but all I'm about to say is Dad, when you're saying they used to pray all the time, multiple chaplains, Franklin alludes to that and says that during the critical stage of the revolution, we had daily prayer in this room for divine protection. Our prayers were heard and they were graciously answered. So if you go back and look at the records, not only were there multiple chaplains that were serving throughout the American Revolution in Congress, but according to Benjamin Franklin, they used to pray every single day. Now, Dad, I'm only uh interrupting to add a little context because if people don't know the sequence going from the revolution now to the constitutional convention, this is a different Congress that's been called for a different purpose. And so they're not following the pattern of what was set as standard during the American Revolution. This is now something different. And as it's falling apart, this is where Benjamin Franklin gets up and he's basically saying, Hey guys, maybe we should go back to doing what we used to do every day in this room.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

Yeah, Tim, as you were describing that, I was remembering in in the movie just how good that scene was. Uh actually a couple scenes they did in in what was uh a mock-up of Independence Hall. Just really, really cool, uh, well done. And even the the drama of how he delivered the speech, I just I loved every single minute minute of it. David, I know you know I I learned that speech from you years ago. You brought it to life, and uh it was cool to watch that displayed in a in a in a very uh quality Hollywood fashion. Actually, I don't even want to give it Hollywood. I don't want to give it the Hollywood name, just quality broadcast fashion, let's say.

SPEAKER_02 5:23

Well, not that it pertains to the answer of this question, but I do want to point out I'm in Philadelphia right now. Uh, and today and tomorrow I'm actually filming. I was in Independence Hall all morning and literally telling the story of Franklin's Call of the Prayer, among many other incredible stories that happened in Independence Hall. So as we're having this conversation, it's even more fun for me because that's literally where I am right now. But yeah, not to digress. We interrupted your story. Please continue

Why They Delayed Daily Chaplains\n

SPEAKER_02 5:49

on.

SPEAKER_03 5:49

Well, answering the question is it was suggested, and there was some discussion actually at the time. Really, they were concerned about optics as much as anything. If they suddenly start bringing preachers in and having prayer, it's not going to look good, that they haven't been doing it first off, and that people are leaving. And so what they decide to do is they were coming up. This this was June the 28th. And so this was actually Thursday, June the 28th, and they're coming up on the 4th of July, which is a time they need to celebrate. They're going to celebrate, they want to celebrate. And so what they decide to do is recess and go to church. And then they take the next three days off, and it's it's kind of over the weekend, too. And then as they come in the next week, it's like, well, this is 4th of July week. We really need to do something to honor the 4th of July. And so they convene at a church on the 4th of July, the Reverend William Rogers Church, and they convene, and he has a special prayer over them on the 4th of July. And that prayer is actually printed, ends up being printed on the front page. And it's not a it's not a small prayer. I mean, it was a significant time. Uh so Reverend William Rogers had the prayer, James Campbell had an oration, and so Congress gathers there. And then after the, after that point, after that kind of several days there, after Franklin kind of challenged them, said we need to get a hold of God, um, you'll you'll see things start shifting. The attitude shift, that the changes shift. There's indications from other delegates that they started having prayer, working that in and started getting back to it. But it it reoriented their mind. They started becoming God conscious again. And and over the next 10 weeks, they come up with the fantastic document that we've had now for coming up on what is it, 237 years that we've had that document, 238 years. 239 years this September. So there it is. So coming up on that birthday, but that's that's how it happened. So there was, you know, just specifically to answer the question, things did turn around after that. Um, but they were concerned about optics, but it got back to their priorities. And they it's not that they were afraid of prayer at all, because you know, as Tim pointed out, as I mentioned, they've been doing this literally for years in the Continental Congress. This is what they did, and that's just one body. They didn't have a house in the Senate, but yet they had three chaplains for the single body. So they were they were serious about it.

SPEAKER_02 8:01

Well, and I think too, part of the strategy, you don't have to go back and review the notes from the convention, but my recollection is part of the strategy when they took that three-day cooling off, that that recess period, the the conversation leading into that was they said, look, we we don't want to bring in a pastor right now, but the fourth of July is coming up, and it would be very reasonable that on the fourth of July that we would do something religious and spiritual. And then if we're already connected with a pastor, we can just ask the pastor to say over. Nobody thinks it's weird, but I say that because I think it was part of a strategic plan, if my recollection, that it wasn't just on 4th of July, then going, hey, what do you want to do today? Oh, let's go down to church. No, they strategically they were thinking through, acknowledging with actually part of the strategy that Franklin was correct with his valid assessment that we need God's help in what we are doing. And so part of their strategy where they decided that they could overcome the appearance, uh, and and part of as we we mentioned appearance, it really was their concern was the acceptance of the people that the people might reject a document uh if it looked like it had to be salvaged by pastors and you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And so they were concerned for the acceptance, stability, longevity of the document they produced, not to digress. Their strategy was let's go to church on July 4th and then let's invite a pastor to just come back with us every day. And nobody's gonna think it's weird or odd because we were just with the pastor. So they didn't do it on his suggestion of June 28th. They didn't do it right then, but it was literally the next week when they go to church and then get connected with pastors and then bring chaplains back, so much so that when you to the first Congress, or when the Constitution is ratified, 1789, you're the first Congress sworn in, they bring in chaplains, and it's not them doing something new, it's them continuing on with the tradition that we had had in our nation virtually since we became a nation.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

All right, guys, and just another plug, everybody go see A Great Awakening. If you haven't seen it yet, you need to watch A Great Awakening. Just a fantastic movie and the perfect year to be watching

July 4 Church Service Turning Point\n

SPEAKER_01 10:07

that. All right, next uh next question up is from let's see, where are they from? Violet is uh from Colorado. And she said, Is the new Young Washington movie historically accurate? So here's another movie, guys. So we got uh A Great Awakening and then Young Washington, a Great Awakening, of course, about Whitfield and Franklin, as we were talking about earlier, and then Young Washington, clearly about Washington early on in life. And of course, uh, David, you had the book. When did you do the book, Bulletproof Washington? Before we get to the movie, you did this book like 20 years ago, right? I remember when you had Dean Jones do the audio version.

SPEAKER_03 10:38

Was it was it after was it after Truman declared peace at the end of World War II?

SPEAKER_01 10:45

I remember I remember Dean joking about um you know little David Barton um climbing up on some uh some stumps to s to look through the window uh at St. John's Church in Virginia for Patrick Henry's Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death speech.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

I don't remember where that was that he joked about that. Maybe it was in that recording, or maybe it was when he made that video for that dinner we had for you and Cheryl all those years ago. But anyway, that uh uh that uh he loved joking about that. David Barton's been around since the beginning.

SPEAKER_03 11:11

Yeah, well, my recommendation is go see the movie. I think it's a really good movie to see. I think it is historically accurate as far as the story goes. I I wouldn't say that all the dialogue is historically accurate, and you're just not gonna get that unless you're you're just reading the the literal writings back then. But as far as the story of young Washington, I think it's really important to understand what was going back then, uh what his thinking was, how he kind of grew into that. Man, he didn't have any experience before that to any great degree, uh, certainly not military. That's his first kind of military experience, and it's under a really arrogant general, and and he has a lot of stuff to navigate. I think it's a really, really, really good movie. Uh I would just say don't look at every phrase that's said and said, hey, Washington said this, and here's what the French said, and then don't don't go there. But the tone is is really good on it. Now, Dad, you have seen this one, correct? I have seen this one, yes.

SPEAKER_02 12:08

I have because it's been on my list, and every time I think I have an evening or afternoon to go watch it, something else comes up. So I haven't got to see it yet. I guess uh which dad, as you mentioned, you know, if if people want to have the the actual story, go back to the original writings. And that's really what your book, the bulletproof George Washington, did. It was going back and taking the letters that George Washington wrote and uh some of the the records from some of the commanders who were there. And even, even, and this is where I want to ask the question, even the acknowledgement of the the Indian leaders that 15 years later came back to to meet George Washington. Does a young Washington have any tease ahead to these natives that want to come back later to meet this guy that they could not kill in battle? Is that in a young Washington?

SPEAKER_03 12:57

It is. At the end of it, it doesn't have all the detail, but it has the Indian chiefs saying, hey, this guy is amazing. He's remarkable. Uh we got to keep our eyes on him. So that is there. Uh it has a slight God acknowledgement that the creator has prepared him through what he survived for what's coming. Uh so there's a head nod of what's coming. It doesn't have the extensive uh language that Washington used or that the chiefs used and how miraculous was his saving, but you see it. I mean, they depict it. So it is it is kind of like watching a good Hollywood movie out of post-World War II, you know, like Sergeant York or something like that. It's not going to have all the Christian testimony that Alvin York had himself, but it's going to have a good tone throughout that that indicates that kind of a tone.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

Well, and I might clarify because Sergeant York did have a pretty good Christian tone. Uh, that's that's back before Hollywood censored it so much. Um, similar with like a Hacksaw Ridge, where you know, Desmond Doth, you can't watch their story and not see the Christ-centered, the God-centered nature. But to your point, it's not detail accurate, but a maybe good representation. And it's still on my list. I'm excited to go see it. Um, and and Rick, when you and I finally see it, maybe

Is Young Washington Historically Accurate\n

SPEAKER_02 14:11

we can add our additional uh critiques and assessments to my dad's recommendation of go see it, but don't believe every line he says.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

Yeah, yeah. I can't wait to, you know, we were gonna do a screening of it. Uh the production company was gonna let us do an early screening of it at the campus uh right before July 4th. And then they had an embargo on their screenings during July 4th. We just never could get around to getting it done and on the schedule. So definitely looking forward to seeing it either in the theater or if we could pull it off in our in our big chamber with that massive screen in there, I think that'd be that'd be cool as well. But can't wait to see it.

SPEAKER_03 14:41

I I would say go enjoy the movie. Do not record the the uh the language, uh all the dialogue, and come back and ask AI if every line is correct.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

Just enjoy the movie.

SPEAKER_03 14:52

Just enjoy the movie.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

I would think too, David, you have to do some of that, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:56

Yeah. Because in order to, in order to talk in today's language where people can understand it well enough, you know, and not have like the old English, even with some of these guys or whatever, um, you'd have to add some dialogue that makes it um, you know, gets the point across because you're trying to communicate the story. You're trying to communicate what they were up against and and how Washington responded and that kind of stuff. So I'm like you, that that does not bother me one bit as long as they don't give a a wrong image of Washington, like like that uh what was it HB? I can't remember who did Turn, but they have Washington out there praying, you know, kneeling in prayer Valley Forge, not to God, praying to some ghost of some mentor of his from years before that it it was ridiculous. So, regardless of how he said it, they created the wrong image, the wrong takeaway. That's what I'm really interested in from the movie.

SPEAKER_03 15:39

Yeah, what you've got here is it covers about 12 years of his life when he's a young man. Uh and that 12 years of life gets covered in about two hours, and that tells you, tells you everything you need to know. But they cover it very accurately. The tone is right. Uh, it's it's really good tone, and you're gonna learn a lot from it, and you're gonna understand a lot. So it's it's definitely worth seeing.

SPEAKER_01 15:59

All right, we're gonna take a quick break. We've got more questions from the audience coming up. Stay with us, folks. You're listening to the Wall Builder Show.

Lives, Fortunes, And Sacred Honor\n

SPEAKER_02 16:08

Okay, we want to let you know about a new product we have here at Wall Builders called Lives, Fortunes, and Sacred Honor, the Signers of the Declaration. Like most Americans, you might be someone that you recognize some of the names of the Founding Fathers, but do you know their story? We want to help remedy that. My dad and I have written biographies on all 56 signers of the Declaration to help re-introduce people to the men who literally signed their names on the line for the sake of the nation. When they did this, they knew that they were essentially signing their death warrants. They were risking everything for the hope that they might be able to purchase freedom for the rising generation with their lives, their fortunes, and sacred honors. In spite of the hardship that every one of them endured, none of them recanted or backed away. Now, if you don't know their story, you can get to know all 56 of them. Go to wallbuilders.com and look for the book Lives, Fortunes, and Sacred Honors, the signers of the Declaration. This is Tim Barton from Wall Builders with another moment from American history. American Patriot Paul Revere wrote to alert Americans of the impending arrival of the British, but he also sought patriot leaders Samuel Adams and John Hancock to warn them that the British were sticking their execution. Adams and Hancock were staying with the Reverend Jonas Clark in Lexington. When they asked Pastor Clark if his church was ready for the approaching British, he replied, I've trained them for this very hour. They will fight and, if need be, die under the shadow of the house of God. Later that morning, 70 men from his church faced several hundred British in the first battle of the War for Independence. As Pastor Clark affirmed, the militia that morning were the same who filled the pews of the church meeting house on the Sunday morning before. The American church was regularly at the forefront of the fight for liberty. For more information on this pastor and other colonial patriots, go to wallbuilders.com.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

Welcome back to the Wall Builder Show. Thanks for staying with us on this Foundations of Freedom Thursday. Next question comes in from Diane. She said, uh for July 4th, I sent questions to our family string. I think she means like a family thread. We do the same thing with our text. Anyway, she said one of the questions was how many signers had seminary degrees? From the info I have from Wall Builders, the answer is 29. However, my granddaughter said there's only one, John Witherspoon. She states her source says many went to college, and the primary purpose was to train pastors, but they actually got their degrees in other subjects. John Adams, for instance, is attending Harvard, who primarily trained pastors, but he got his degree in law. Can you help me respond correctly? They get points and a prize. So this question is pending your answer. So that's hilarious.

Paul Revere And Pastor Jonas Clark\n

SPEAKER_01 18:51

I love that. That's a great tradition right there. Ask historical questions in your family threads and give away prizes.

SPEAKER_03 18:56

Go ahead, guys. So what I would say is I'm I'm going to go. Tim and I have both spoken at a bunch of colleges, universities all over the United States. I'm going to go to Springfield, Missouri. There's two colleges there. There's Evangel Bible College and there's Baptist Bible College there. They're both, they're both Bible colleges. That is in their name: Evangel Bible College, Bible Baptist College. And yet you can graduate from that Bible college with journalism, or you can graduate with teaching, or you can graduate with lots of stuff. And that's the way the founders were. 29 of them went to Bible colleges. Not all of them came out with seminary degrees, although the degree they came out with, it's not specialized like we've had in the 20th century. You came out with a basic learning. And from that learning, you could have walked into the pulpit or you could walk into business or you could walk into all of it because you had a Bible base for all of it. So it's not the way we do now where you have 43 different degrees and you choose your degree. You go get that basis. And I would point that there's four, four individuals we know of the signers that are active in ministry, not just with a spoon, but others as well.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

Well, and Dad, one thing to clarify too. So like the granddaughter making a valid point. They graduated from Bible schools or seminaries didn't necessarily mean that they were themselves graduating with a seminary degree. And to your point, Dad, super valid. One of the things that to add to this, when you're saying, like, look, they could have graduated and gone to priest, well, well, yes. If they would have wanted to go through seminary, they would have taken some additional specialized classes. And for some of them, even higher level schooling after that, for many people who wanted to be pastors,

How Many Signers Had Seminary Degrees\n

SPEAKER_02 20:30

uh, because it used to be back in the day that we believed that pastors should be some of the most educated. So there was a a far higher level of education, but kind of that I think to the point you're trying to make that is foundational to this at every every university back then, part of the philosophy of the university was to equip their young people for ministry in whatever field God had called them to. So they they were training them to be ministers, not all to be pastors. And and that's where there's a nuanced difference. But kind of again to support this idea, when you would go to university back then, one of your projects, freshman projects, and this was consistent like across the board at universities, your freshman project was to translate a portion of the Greek Septuagint of the Greek New Testament into English. And this was for anybody coming. This this wasn't just for the really bright uh seminary future pastors. No, this was for everybody coming similar to when I went to a Christian college, I went to Southwestern Assembly God University. I was pursuing athletics at the time. Uh turned out I wasn't as athletic as I wanted to be, but uh I was required as a freshman to take New Testament survey, old testament survey, scripture and ethics. Like I can go down the list. When I graduated, I graduated with a minor in biblical studies just because of all of the courses I was happening to take in Bible, even though I graduated with a business degree. That's the way it was for the founding fathers. They were being trained to be ministers, even though not all of them would become pastors, they were Learning those biblical foundational things. So this is a nuance with a significant distinction, but it it is a lot of overlap in the Christian education that we're really making the point of.

SPEAKER_03 22:12

And dare say I that I think that had you graduated with a basic degree from those universities back then, you're probably have more Bible knowledge than specialized seminaries today. I think they're basics their basic level for what they taught because they you you had to read Greek, you had to read Latin, you read Hebrew, you went through the scriptures, you went through the classics, and that's just for everyday basic kids. That's what you cover in graduate stuff now. So even the level they had that was pretty basic then would be a lot higher for our seminarians today.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

All right. Well, we'll see who wins the text threat, who gets the prizes. You can't send them in to David and Tim. They don't get the prizes. Uh I don't know who in your family is going to get it, or I guess I guess I actually um let's see, she was uh Diane. I bet she was the one wanting to get the prize. Okay, Sergio, let's see if we can get this one in before we run out of time, guys.

Appeal To Heaven Flag And Pine Tree Meaning\n

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Sergio says, hey, Wallbuilders team, since you guys are the experts on the hidden history of our founding, I was hoping you could settle a debate for me. I'm looking to fly the appeal to heaven flag from my car window, but I want to make sure I've got the story straight. I know the motto is a nod to John Locke's idea that when we're out of earthly options, we look up, but what's the deal with that specific pine tree? Was it just a convenient revolutionary brand, or does that tree have a deeper spiritual or political significance that we're missing today? Love the show. Thanks for keeping the history alive. And Sergio, thanks for sending in that question. I got one of these appeal to heaven flags, a huge 10 by 15 flying from the front gate of the Patriot Academy campus right now. All right, guys, what do you say about that pine tree?

SPEAKER_03 23:36

Yeah, first off, you take the motto. So the motto does go back to John Locke, but it also goes to sermons like Jonathan Mayhew's sermon, Rebellion to Tyrrhen's Obedience to God. Um, the the whole concept that, man, when you get to the point where civil government is so bad, you appeal to God, and it's okay to resist uh bad laws and bad stuff when they violate what God tells you to do. So there's a lot of theological basis for that, and John Locke is certainly one of the big voices on that, his second treatise, particularly. But the the pine tree, why why why the pine tree? Several things. One is that's where the liberty pole comes from. They had these liberty poles all over New England. And you erected a liberty pole, and that liberty pole came out of a white pine tree. That's also what they used for the ship mast, was that pine tree. So that pine tree was the essence of the symbol of the way that they're pushing back and fighting back. Um that's that liberty pole. They actually had uh this is almost unbelievable. They had liberty poles as high as 170 feet back then, so that people could see it literally from miles away and be drawn to that. And that was a meeting place, kind of like their announcement way. So the Liberty Pole came out of that tree. That tree is that tree actually goes back to the 1650s. Uh they started using that as a symbol in Massachusetts, as as part of the the essence of who they were as people, that white pine. That that was that was it. So you see that with masks, you see that in the military, you see that in what they build, the forts they do, you see that in the Liberty Poles. Uh that was just kind of kind of the summation of the symbol that they had that goes back into the 16, mid-1600s for Massachusetts.

SPEAKER_01 25:13

Yeah, and I think David, too, this is a property rights flag. I mean, this this was this was also motivated by people because of the conflict with the king over wanting the tallest trees and the best trees for mass for the ships, and there were private landowners that were having some of their trees taken. There was some land that was the king's, there was some that that was in dispute about whose it was, but this was literally saying, you know, not only are we appealing to God, part of the reason we're appealing to God for this, is because our property rights have been violated, and the king is taking the best of our property instead of letting us have it. And uh so I love to remind people of that, especially these these disputes I've been in with the with the Patriot Academy campus and and the government telling us what to do. That's why I'm flying that appeal to heaven flag as a reminder that who owns the land? To ask that question, who owns the land? And of course, the king thought he owned everything and would take even some of the best of the um I consider trees produce. Would you guys say trees are are produce? I mean, you know, you're raising up uh a crop essentially there.

SPEAKER_02 26:07

Well, especially back then. Well, I'm just trying to grow some money on them is what I'm trying to do. But yes, they certainly could be considered produce. Obviously, you harvest timber, and then if you're growing fruit on them, it's even more. So that Rick, I support that and that notion wholeheartedly.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

And it's green on the on the tr on the on the flag. So yeah, growing some money right there on those pine trees.

Property Rights And Closing Thoughts

SPEAKER_01 26:27

Hey guys, great answers today and great questions from the audience. Really want to encourage the audience to keep keep those questions coming, and maybe some of our listeners will uh will pick up this idea of asking good questions in their family text threads and giving away prizes. Thanks so much for listening today. Join us tomorrow for Good News Friday. You've been listening to the Wall Booker Show.