Why This Conversation Matters

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Welcome to the Intersection of Faith and Culture. It's the Wall Builder Show, taking all the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective. Rick Green here with David Barton and Tim Barton are actually all traveling. Of course, you got the big dedication yesterday, rededication of the nation. Unbelievable, just absolutely incredible. So, so thankful for the moment that we are in for the things that are happening in our country. It's just it's just amazing. So, recording from uh the airport, but Tim had the chance to sit down with Seth Gruber, who uh we love working with and has a huge event coming up in just a few weeks, and just all kinds of great things coming out that we wanted to highlight and share with you. And so we're gonna share that interview with uh with Tim and Seth Gruber today. It'll give you a chance to get caught up on what's going on with White Rose Resistance and and uh all the great work that they are doing. Um, if you have not been to wallbuilders.show lately, make sure you go there because it's got an easy-to-use listing of all the programs over the last couple of weeks you might have missed. Gives you a chance not only to listen to them, but to share them with your friends and family. And then, of course, all the podcast apps, be sure and do the same thing. Uh, or if you listen to us on the radio on Bot Radio or American Family Radio or some of the other networks that are carrying wall builders, then uh you can still share it from their websites. But the whole idea is just to get the truth in as many hands as we possibly can. So important, the diet of information that people have. So let's get a good diet today with Seth Gruber and Tim Barton. Stay with us, you're listening to the Wall Builder Show.

The Last Stand Event And Film

SPEAKER_02 1:41

This is Tim Barton from Wall Builders with another moment from American history. Many today assert that religion is something private, that it has no place in the public square, and that it is incompatible with government. But the Founding Fathers believed exactly the opposite. They held that religion was absolutely necessary in order to maintain our free system of government. For example, John Adams declared, We have no government armed with power, capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. In signer of the Declaration, Benjamin Rush similarly affirmed, Without religion, there can be no virtue, and without virtue, there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object in life of all Republican governments. The Founding Fathers understood that limited government required public morality from the people, and that public morality was produced by the Christian religion. For more information about the Founding Fathers' views on religion and public life, go to wallbuilders.com. Welcome back to the Wall Builder Show. This is Tim Barton, and I am now joined by my friend special guest, Seth Gruber. Seth, thanks for hanging out with us, man. Thanks, Tim. What an honor. Well, so we wanted to encourage people to attend the last stand, an event you have coming up that I am so honored I get to be part of it. It's honestly it's just a group of a bunch of cool friends that we get to hang out and encourage people with some basic truth, but you're also premiering something that you have a new film coming out. Tell us a little bit about your film and the last stand.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Yeah, thanks, Tim. Well, uh, people can go to thelaststand.com if they want to get tickets. Not only do we have Tim Barton, we have Ali Bestucki, Frank Turek, Rob McCoy, Steve Dace, Abby Johnson, Andrew Sedra, Dr. George Grant, um, and a huge special guest will be announcing soon. Thelaststand.com, June 5th, Friday evening kickoff, all day June 6th, worship with Shannon Shane, uh, and then the premiere of my film. So, yeah, we're just a bunch of Christian nationalists, I guess. Whatever. I mean, I think that means that you're a Democrat in 1969, Tim. I'm pretty sure that's what a Christian nationalist is. So if you don't want to slay children in the name of radical feminism, you think that there's only two genders, that marriage is only a man and a woman, and that it's better to restore the Christian foundations of the republic than the pagan enlightenment, Maximilian the Robespierre, Marquis de Sad uh ideal. So I guess I guess that's what Christian nationalism is. So that's who we are, and um, the film is really important. This is the second annual last stand festival, Tim, but the film is also called the last stand. And it's really significant because it's easy to say, you know, like, oh, if the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do? It's easy to say things like there's nothing new under the sun. And and I think most conservatives and even like Christless conservative patriots who bleed red, white, and blue, Tim, I think most of them can kind of sense that like evil's not new. Like we throw around these phrases. It's it's easy to to believe that. And I think some Americans, Tim, go like, oh yeah, no, I I get that. Evil, evil always comes back wearing a similar mask. But like, do we actually know what that means? Do we actually understand that like for 1900 years the church fought against abortion, baby killing, infanticide, the sexualization of kids, the the blurring of the gender lines, the state intervening in the parent-child relationship, drag queen story hour in the Palais Royal during the French Revolution? Um, brothels full of children above the Parisian cafes while they're chopping off Marie Antoinette's head. Do we have historical specificity to what happens when the church retreats uh because we read too many Rick Warren or Andy Stanley books or whatever? Um, and so we really wanted to like recover the glorious and long-neglected heritage of Christian resistance against the same evils that we're facing today. Uh heroes whose names we don't even know in the church anymore, uh, Tim, and how this laid the foundations for the West as we know it today. So that's that's that's uh that's the elevator pitch of what the film's about.

SPEAKER_02 5:45

Well, you did a great job giving the elevator pitch. There's so much to unfold. Uh, and one of the things that you and I have both spent some time studying history. Um, you've uh you blew me away one of the first times we got to hang out as you were going through uh some of your knowledge of church history. But even with American history, one of the things that wall builders we've tried to do for a long time is to re-educate Americans to the reality of the biblical foundations of the nation. And part of why it matters is if you don't realize you're a frog sitting in a pot of boiling water, then you're never gonna get out. But when you when you have perspective to go, wait a second, something wrong is happening, and you can pinpoint what is wrong, and you have the contrast of no, this is the way that the understanding, the seminal foundational understanding, what it was, and and here's where we've gone wrong. We want to give people perspective to understand not just that there are wrong things, but to show them, no, here's truth, here is error, and here's how we recover truth and what we do. And so one of the things I'm very excited about, uh, and then being able to partner and we want to encourage people, go to the last stand, uh, the laststand.com. Go sign up, come be part of this up in Denver, Colorado. Uh, and I do want to throw this back to you, but I do want to plug. Man, when I I I went to college uh the fall of 2000, graduated 2004, but in high school and college, there were these worship leaders down at like Baylor, uh, I saw them at AM, and then their names were Shane and Shane. And I like I grew up with these guys, and so it's it's really cool to be able to be in a room full of like-minded believers that that have a heart for the things of God, because one of the things that that I think we are seeing, and and you are on the front lines of stirring people up for this, I think we are seeing God moving to awaken people, their their hearts, their minds, and conscience. And to your point, one of the things we've had in culture is is we've taught a lot of comfortable Christianity, and and we've kind of lost the concept that the when the Bible says the fear of the Lord is to hate evil, there's not a lot of Christians that have a lot of hate for evil. And sometimes it's because they they haven't identified what evil is, uh, they haven't been exposed to how evil some things are. And so you've been a little bit of a protagonist on the front side going, hey guys, here's evil right here, and you better hate it if you are a Christian, because that's actually as much as Jesus said they would know you're my disciples by your love for one another, it's crazy if you look up the word hate in the Bible, how often it is God saying he hates sin and wickedness and iniquity and the fear of the Lord is hating something. And it seems like this this bipolar contrast for some Christians, but when you realize no, when you love God and love righteousness, then then everything that is when the thief comes, the devil comes to steal, kill, and destroy, then you hate the death and destruction of what Satan is doing. And as Christians, we should be working to stop that, which is a lot of what you've done.

Athanasius And The Infanticide Walls

SPEAKER_01 8:49

So let me toss back to you. Well, so so Tim, I mean, like that you just went to the word of God, the Old Testament. That's right. There are some things God hates more, right? Like killing your baby ain't the same thing as stealing a pencil. Okay. No one thinks that all sin is equaled. All sin puts us on the equal playing field before the foot of the cross. All sin requires repentance, but not all sin is equal. Uh and so in the old testament, we get this list. Uh, Tim, you remember of the good kings of Israel, and there weren't many, uh, like Asa, Jehosaphat, Jehoash, Amaziah, Azariah, Jotham, and and it says they did what was right in the sight of the Lord. It's repeated over and over again. But there's a final epitaph attached to each of those men. A final line for your listeners who don't know what that word is. It's like the conclusion, the concluding statement, something you might put on your headstone. The epitaph, and it says, except for the high places, were not taken away. God is telling us that He wants us to remember His good king, not by the good that they did, but the by the evil that they tolerated and gave free reign to. And that tolerance brought about the eventual collapse of Jerusalem and the beginning of the Babylonian captivity. One of the high places in the Bible, brothers and sisters. Uh, they would do orgies and sacrifice infants. Uh, and that often included the sexual abuse of children as well. So weird sex rainbow cults and child sacrifice, what are the two gods of American culture today? If not weird sex cult stuff and baby killing. This is these are not just siloed political issues that you can deal with in a cute little box or deal with on their own terms. They're connected to everything else. There's this um church hero, church father Tim, named Athanasius. Um, he's been called Athanasius Contramundum or Athanasius against the world. Um, and he was a not not only was he a patristic church father, he took a pivotal role in drafting the Nicene Creed, uh, the most simplest profession of the Christian faith. Uh, he wrote a book called On the Incarnation at just 15 years old, which is still a staple of any classical Christian education today, Tim. And um one day, in Alexandria, where he pastored, according to oral tradition, because the burning of the library at Alexandria is probably the greatest loss in all of Christendom, um, he walks his church out of the sanctuary, Tim, outside of the ancient Roman wall of cities in Alexandria, and he marches his congregation to the infanticide walls. This these were very these were very routinely placed outside of city walls because there's still some shame associated with what they would do here. And this is where it became normal and legal to abandon your infant. If you don't like the baby, just leave it on a wall or a trash heap. Some people, Tim, called these infanticide walls, some people called them high places.

SPEAKER_02 11:57

Oh, see, okay, I was gonna guess Planned Parenthood at first, but I I just confused where you were going.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

That's right. And so Athanasius stands in front of the high places, Tim, and he preaches a message on the incarnation. Um, which is, I mean, in the most pro-life story ever. Like the the word became flesh, John 1. But the Greek is it's the logos became flesh, flesh. And for anyone who studied ancient Rome, uh in the part is in the wall builders community, you'll know that the concept that ancient Romans valued the most, the thing that they placed at the center of their political discourse, the center of the city-state, their understanding of human dignity was logos. Uh logic, rationality, speech, it's what separates us from the animals. This is what they value the most. But the way they defined it, Tim, shocker, it excluded unborn babies, infants, toddlers, children, slaves, most women. And it was basically just a freeborn male who had logos and was considered to be a full person. So it's very, it's very eugenics-like, it's very Promethean, it's very Hitlerian, right? This whole uh subhuman untermensch kind of ideas, not full persons. Um, and so think of the scandalous nature of John 1 when early pagans in the Roman era were reading this. Wait, the logos became flesh? The capital L logos, baby, he's the divine logic of the universe. He has so much logos that when he opens his mouth, a freaking Milky Way comes out. Wait, you're saying in Christianity, logos is not a concept, it's a person? That's his name. The logos became flesh, but he took on fetal flesh? Wait, hold on, hold on. He became fully God and fully human in the one location that we devalue the most, that we've declared open war and hostility upon, the uterus, where there there are no people, there are not persons in Roman law. Unborn babies, Tim, were considered to be part of the mother's body. Sound familiar? Now it's the logos who becomes a fetus. Athanasius preaches the incarnation outside of the old Roman infanticide walls, and he turns around, Tim, and he starts ripping the infanticide wall down with his own hands, brick by brick. He turns to his congregation with bloodied hands, Tim, and he says, This blood for their blood. This story reaches the ears of Emperors Valentinian and Theodosius in 374 A.D. They're so scandalized by this, Tim. Like that a pastor would walk his church out of the sanctuary and and tear down the local abortion mill. I'm sorry, Infanticide Wall, Freudian's lip. Um, that they pass edicts for the first time in human history, Tim, declaring that infants and babies have a right to life, cannot be discarded, and must be cared for by their parents. And six years later, Rome embraced the teaching of Christ, literally etching the sanctity of life into the very ethos of Western civilization. It might not be an overstatement to say that tearing down abortion mills and saving babies gave birth to Western Christendom as we know it today. This is just one of the many stories that we've forgotten about who we are as the church. And so this film, Tim, is about how the first 1900 years of church history is an indictment against the last 100.

SPEAKER_02 15:23

Yeah. It's interesting too, uh, Seth, as you're saying this. And for anybody that wants to know more, uh, go to the whiterose.life. Uh, and if they're wondering why the white rose, uh, there's actually some details about that and why it's there. And if we have time, you might tell us about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

And if they want to host a screening, Tim, they can go to the laststand.film. Any church or Christian school, co-op, homeschool, anything, you can go to the laststand.film, the laststand.film, and you can press host a screening, fill out the form, and you can bring this to your people starting June 7th.

SPEAKER_02 15:57

Okay, so that's exactly one of the questions on my list. Uh, so for everybody that is interested, uh, if you if you can't make it, first of all, try to make it to the last stand up in Denver, Colorado. Uh, try to be there. It's incredible. Uh Seth, I uh maybe there's still tickets available. I I know that yeah, uh there's been a little bit of a run, but if you can make it there, try to make it there, be there in person. Um, you can come say hi, connect with us. Uh, and as Seth mentioned, incredible group of people there. But Seth, backing up to you telling part of the story, one of the things, again, at Wall Brothers, we tried to remind people over and over and over again if you would go back to the original documents, you would rediscover and you can recover some of what has been lost and intentionally misled, intentionally misrepresented. Because even when founding fathers, when they acknowledge that we believe there is a divine creator and that our rights come from him, government exists to protect those rights. But among those rights were life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness. And there are people that would go, well, right, but that life, they that they weren't talking about, like you guys right now, you're talking about the unborn. They weren't talking about that. And I would go, hang on a second. I beg to differ because James Wilson, one of the guys who signed the declaration, and he signed the constitution, and he was an original chief justice of the U.S. Supreme Court. While he was a sitting justice of the Supreme Court, he is one of the law teachers. It's like the second law school that opens in America is the law school in Philadelphia. And we have his original law lectures, and one of the law lectures he gave, he said, beautiful and undeviating human life from its commencement to its close is protected by the common law and the contemplations of law. That life begins when the infant is first able to stir in the womb. Now, we could talk about if you study some basic biology, you couldn't. We call it quickening.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

Yeah.

Is Resistance Too Extreme

SPEAKER_02 17:43

Right. And you would go, well, that happens at a certain, you know, weekend of the pregnancy. And I would point out to people, no, you've misunderstood. What he is actually arguing is when the quickening happened, when the baby stirs in the womb, that was the first time the mom actually could know for certain that she was pregnant. Right. His his argument actually was as soon as a woman knows she's pregnant, the laws of America protect the life of that unborn child. But I say this because sometimes you have the conversation with people today, and and they feel like, you know, well, Seth, you're being extreme in what you say. And it's like, no, actually, that this was basic foundational things, first of all, to Christianity, but secondly, even to America. And for everybody listening that has not heard Seth before, go online, go to his YouTube channel, listen to some of the speeches. It's so compelling. Seth, sometimes when I think about you, I'm reminded of John Brown. Uh historically, I don't know if you ever uh John Brown, dude. That guy was intense, huh? Well, he was someone that took it serious enough. He he he was so devoted in his faith, he said that we have to do something with our belief. We can't stand by and watch evil happen and not do something. And you are someone that I see so motivated by your faith that you have been actively doing things. And so that for people listening, the easy things you can do, you can show the film and your church to your group. That's easy. Uh one step above that is come to the event, come supportive, come be inspired, motivated, challenged. But Seth, what would you say to the Christians who are listening and they're like, guys, like I'm kind of on your team, but y'all are a little extreme. What would you say to people that feel like maybe you are being too extreme in your position?

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Um, how's this for extreme? Um, there is not an exception to this rule in 86 civilizations over 5,000 years. These were the findings of JD Unwin in his book Sex and Culture from 1934, 92 years ago, buried by the liberal academic left. When I go viral on my friends over at Cross Politics podcast at Amphest, that they I guess they got lucky or I was communicating well, it went over two million views. And then I get meta-verified fact check, fact check, um, saying that the findings that I was summarizing from JD Unwin are in fact not true because he's been totally buried by the liberal academic left, Tim, because his findings that I'm about to summarize in 30 seconds for your audience are such a damning indictment on liberalism and its false promises. So it has to be buried. Just like what else? What else? They bury anything that's a threat to liberalism and the status quo. Tim, the history of Planned Parenthood, the Protestant founding of America, all these things you have to do crazy research to find because it's not being taught in public high schools. And so he finds a 100% correlation between basically laissez-faire, French Revolutionary Without Responsibility cultures, and the death of those civilizations and societies, and a 100% correlation between heterosexual, marriage-based cultures and cultural advancement, cultural energy, prowess, and it's those civilizations he said who gave us the best food, architecture, standing armies, families, art, etc. etc. etc. Without exception for the history of civilization. Yeah, yep. And he says, once a civilization and here's the key part, Tim, okay? This is super key. Your audience will love this. Um once a civilization adopts total sexual freedom. That was the phrase he used. And he didn't just mean cultural shifts, he didn't just mean like Hollywood, you know, pushing will and grace. He meant like it was codified. Total sexual freedom became codified. Then you have about a century, roughly 90 to 100 years before you're done, and you're taken over by another civilization with greater social energy. So civilizational replacement. Anyone, anyone, UK right now, Canada, Australia, uh, dearborn Michigan, freaking wake up. Um, and so the question becomes when did America embrace total sexual freedom, Tim? I think it was 1973, okay? And I have three reasons for that. Uh Roe v. Wade, baby killing through point of birth. Now we go, okay, well, there's not a there's not a civilization in the history of our recorded species that did not exercise ritualistic child sacrifice in some way, shape, or form. So why is That's significant, Seth. Civilizations have always killed babies. Why? Because America is the most powerful child of the Reformation. That's what made that significant. That within 200 years of our founding, we codified baby killing through point of birth in all 50 states funded by the taxpayer for any reason or no reason at all. That's kind of a big deal. So you don't have total sexual freedom, Tim, unless you can kill the products of your total sexual freedom. Until you can sacrifice the child that's the product of your sexual freedom, only then can you be totally free. Free from parenthood, free from responsibility, free from anything. What else happened in 73? Dude, the Supreme Court removed a bunch of the obscenity laws. 1973 was the beginning of free legal porn. Legal porn shipped everywhere. And 73 Endangered Species Act. Same year. Same year we declared open season on pre-born humans, Tim. We gave more legal protections to sea turtles and porpoises. Right. Which by the way fulfills G.K. Chesterton's prophetic warning that wherever there is animal worship, there will be human sacrifice. So so wait, hold on. Old Testament, let's go back. Uh Tim, what did I just go through? Uh Roe v. Wade, Moloch, um animal worship, uh Baal and uh free porn ashtra. Yikes. Those are the manifestations of like the three kinds of pagan worship in the Old Testament that when tolerated or participated in, God would give his people over to be ruled by pagan hordes who hate them because of their tolerance or participation in that. So I don't think it's an overstatement, Tim, to say like if 73 that may have been the beginning of America's codification of total sexual freedom, we don't have much time left.

SPEAKER_02 23:39

Yeah, and and Seth, so for everybody listening, again, I encourage you go to thewhiterose.life. Uh, if you can come to the last stand, come to the last stand. If you want to show that film to your group, you need to do it. Seth, one of the things I would add to what you just said is I think that's when it really broke out. But had it not been for 1962 and 63, had we not said we don't want kids to have the Bible or have prayer in school anymore until you remove a biblical foundation, you cannot have the sexual freedom you're talking about. So I think this is absolutely built on each other. And I know you're you would not disagree with that, but this is why it matters. You have to restore a biblical foundation, and part of restoring a biblical foundation is you have to oppose fight and hate evil. And Seth, you have been on the front line of doing that. And I'm so grateful for you, bro. Thank you for taking time to be with us today.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

Thank you, Tim. We'll see you at the last stand. Can't wait to hear you. We'll be there.

SPEAKER_02 24:39

All right, for everybody else, hang on, we'll be right back in just a minute with Rick Green. Hi, friends. This is Tim Barton of Wall Builders. This is the time when most Americans don't know much about American history or even heroes of the faith. And I know oftentimes for parents, we're trying to find good content for our kids to read. And if you remember back to the Bible, to the book of Hebrews, that has the Faith Hall of Fame where they outlined the leaders of faith that had gone before them. Well, this is something that as Americans, we really want to go back and outline some of these heroes, not just of American history, but heroes of Christianity and our faith as well. I want to let you know about some biographical sketches we have available on our website. One is called the Courageous Leaders Collection, and this collection includes people like Abigail Adams, Abraham Lincoln, Francis Scott Keith, George Washington Carver, Susanna Wesley, even the Wright brothers. And there's a second collection called Heroes of History. In this collection, you'll read about people like Benjamin Franklin or Christopher Columbus, Daniel Boone, George Washington, Harriet Tubman. Friends, the list goes on and on. This is a great collection for your young person to have and read, and it's a providential view of American and Christian history. This is available at wallbuilders.com. That's www.wallbuilders.com.

WallBuilders Resources And Closing

SPEAKER_00 25:49

Welcome back to the Wallputter Show. Thanks for staying with us. Thanks for listening to Tim Barton and Seth Gruber. Thanks for all that you're doing to help usher in this new rededication to God for America. These events like what happened yesterday on the mall uh are, you know, once-in-a-lifetime events. This is really once in a not only a generation, but perhaps even in a century. And there's so many of these things that are happening. Um, well, in two and a half centuries, maybe. I mean, we'll have some more celebrations, of course, for the 300th, but the 250th is the one that we've been given in our lifetimes to be able to make the most of. Hope you're thinking about that and how you can do that. Be sure and go to wallboulders.com today to get you some materials to get educated on these things, get our biblical citizenship class, make sure that you're getting together with other patriots, other people that want to be good biblical citizens, and together sharpening each other, getting educated, and encouraging each other and getting involved in everything that you possibly can. Thanks so much for listening today to the WallBuilder Show.