Easter Weekend And Court Wins

SPEAKER_03 0:07

Welcome to the intersection of Faith and Culture. It's the Wall Boulder Show, taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective. It's Monday. Hope you had a fantastic Easter weekend. And uh here we go into a new week. And last week we had some some victories we didn't get a chance to talk about during that week. So we've got one of those specifically today that we'll talk about. So talk about hot topics. One of those is what uh the left calls conversion therapy. Normal people would just simply say it's counseling. Uh, but we're gonna talk about that and the victory at the Supreme Court. I'm Rick Green here with David Barton and Tim Barton. Visit our websites at wallbuilders.show. That's the radio site for all of the previous programs of the last few weeks and months, and then wallbuilders.com for everything else, wall builders and history related. David and Tim, all right, great victory at the Supreme Court, 8-1. And on an issue where in states we've actually been losing for a while, um, and people literally lost their license or not been able to counsel simply because they wanted to counsel from a biblical worldview.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Yeah, and Rick, over the last week or so, there's been some very significant things coming from the Supreme Court. In fact, uh even from uh was it a a oh a federal court, appellate court, I'm trying to think what it was in Colorado. Um, the lady that was imprisoned uh in in Colorado and now they're sending hers back down to the lower, or was it the Supreme Court that did that? Tina Peters did that.

SPEAKER_03 1:28

I think it was the Court of Appeals that did that. Yeah, Court of Appeals in call of all places, Colorado, right? Where you usually have a justice system that you know abused Jack Phillips for what, a decade or two? So this is not a court system we have a lot of faith in there.

Why States Ban “Conversion Therapy”

SPEAKER_01 1:40

No, but all of this to say is there's been a lot of really good victories over the last week. And uh on Friday we had Good Friday, and we had some news on Good Friday, uh, and and we didn't get to some of these things, and that's why we asked Kelly to join us today to give us some of his breakdown of what they saw of what's going on. But there's been a lot of really great victories coming from the Supreme Court. Of course, uh the birthright citizenship case was also there last week, and that that is one that definitely uh could use some prayer right now. Yes. Um, the questions were not good. We're a little a little concerned. Oh man. Well, and you know, some of it just how how silly it is. Sometimes we have these people in in positions of political authority, and they are not the sharpest crayon in the drawer. And I intentionally confuse that analogy because that's literally what we're dealing with. It's not the sharpest knife in the drawer or the brightest crayon on the box. No, like combine those things. That's what Kachanji Brown Jackson was during the midst of that birthright citizenship. Some of the questions she was asking, she clearly didn't get in. In fact, even in this decision we're gonna talk to Kelly about, it was an 8-1 decision, and she's the only one on the other side. There is definitely some things that we are seeing with people that it it seems like they have no business being there. And when she was going through Senate confirmation and she couldn't define what a woman was, well, that's already gonna be a major problem. If you, as a sitting Supreme Court justice, are gonna have to deal with a case that deals with Title IX, that deals with women, or something of such nature, whatever it looks like, gender-related, crime-related, etc., you need to know what a woman is. And if you can't answer that question, you probably don't need to be on the Supreme Court. Not that I aggress on that. Uh just there's a lot of interesting things happening at the court. Um, but Dav, let's back up because one of the things we talked about about getting Kelly on is maybe even laying some of the groundwork of what was what this Rick, you said it really well in the intro. It's really Christian counseling, but what Christian counseling in is that has been labeled conversion therapy, when really it's not conversion therapy, it's reality conversation that the left has said, oh, you're you're doing conversion therapy again, which is not at all what's going on. So, Dad, walk us through some of that.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Yeah, so what happened was when all this LGBTQIA plus stuff took off eight to ten years ago, uh, and and actually the first ban on conversion therapy goes back to actually 14 years ago. So, what they're doing is saying, because we want everybody to have these LGBTQIA plus proclivities, anybody who counsels against that, you can't do that. You you cannot resist what we're trying to push down the the kids here. And so what what it did was it stopped the right of free speech for counselors to give any alternative other than what the state said.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

And specifically, meaning if somebody came in to a Christian counselor and they said, Hey, I'm struggling with homosexual attraction, with right, same-sex attraction, and the counselor were to say, Well, so here's what you can, or maybe even I'm struggling with my gender and I I'm a man, but I feel like I'm a woman, or vice versa, if that Christian counselor were to say, Well, here's what the word of God says about how God made us fearfully and wonderfully in his image, and God didn't make a mistake when he made you, if you were to suggest they weren't how they identified, that was considered conversion, that you are trying to convert them from their homosexual or transgender tendencies or desires or whatever that might be. And so it's not that you're trying to convert them to be something they're not. If you suggest they're not how they feel, that's what was called conversion. So if somebody came in and said, Hey, I feel like a cat and they're a person, and the counselor were to say, actually, you're not a cat, you're a person, they would call that conversion therapy, saying you're not a cat to someone that thought they're a cat. Well, you're trying to convert them from not being a cat or from being a cat, and you're telling them there can't be. No, this is how stupid it is. That's not conversion therapy. That is reality conversation. A human being is not an animal, they're not a furry, but this is exactly what was going on with these Christian counselors. They were told, well, you can't counsel from what the word of God or biology or reality says if it differs with our agenda in this area.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

And Tim, I would even the sit-up that you gave there, you know, a kid comes in and talks about I have these feelings. I wouldn't even change in my sarcasm and facetiousness. I would even say a kid comes in and says, Hey, for six months, my teacher's been telling me that I'm homosexual, gay, that I'm a furry, or whatever, and my parents tell me that I'm not, and I'm confused, what do I do? And it literally was that. It was going against all reality, going against so much of what they'd been told by their parents, so much of what they'd been raised with. They're being indoctrinated in the classrooms with crazy nonsense stuff, and so they feel confused, which who wouldn't in that situation. And so feeling confused, they go for help. And it just blows my mind that we had 24 states plus D.C., so 25 entities out of 51 that say you're not allowed to offer any counsel other than what we tell you on this issue. You're not you're not even allowed to have your own beliefs. And if you do, you can't voice your own beliefs, and you sure can't voice it to a minor. We only get to give our beliefs to the minor. We get to cram this down their throat. You can have them. And parents, you're the same way. You can't do anything to to inhibit that I mean that degree of absurdity is where this was at the court. And and and just going down the list, you know, I started.

SPEAKER_03 7:28

David, before you go to the I I think that I think the image that they put in people's minds, it's kind of like the Christian nationalist label. It makes you th think people want a theocracy or something. When I hear conversion therapy, I think, oh man, they got electrodes, you know, like hooked up to the they're they're there it's some kind of shock therapy, or they're doing something, you know, like they used to do in the 20s or 30s to people. So that they're they're so smart about the terminology when they create this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

And Rick, to your point, that was literally how the argument was a decade ago, saying we can't let them do this conversion therapy that, you know, they're gonna hook you up and they're gonna shock you, they're doing these shock treatments to try to make you not be a homosexual. That that's not how this goes at all. It literally is having a conversation about, in many cases, biology or reality or biblical truth and interpretation and basic Bible verses. And when states were saying, Well, wait a second, if you talk about the Bible, and and we're seeing this, guys. I mean, we we've talked about this many times over the last several weeks, what's happening at at in places in Europe where if you're posting Bible verses, you can go to jail, you can be imprisoned uh for saying what the Bible says about gender or sexuality, etc. And this is the same thing that was being imposed on some of these counselors. If you have a biblical position on the issues, you can lose your license, you can lose your job, you can be fined, you could even potentially be imprisoned for doing this, which is a clear violation of the constitution. And yet, dad, somehow these states thought it was totally acceptable to pass laws saying that we would take people's licenses, properties, jobs, or imprison them if they didn't comply and reject faith, uh, lose their freedom of speech. If they don't comply with this, then they lose all those things, which is obviously a violation of the Constitution.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

Yeah, it is such crazy. They use language exactly opposite of what they believe. They're all for choice, except we won't give you a choice. And so you get no choice in this. You can't have an alternative view, and you can't even discuss an alternative view. And so it's just crazy. But uh it's interesting, even last year, Pennsylvania passed the ban on conversion therapy. So this is still going right up to the present. Um, we had just recently, back in December, um, I guess three months ago, uh, Michigan's ban was struck down by the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals. But it's just crazy that even now, 14 years later, essentially, after the first ban was passed by California, you have states still trying to say you cannot talk about this issue, you cannot give guidance or free speech out the door. It's crazy. But good news is Kelly had this case at the Supreme Court. They won eight to one, which is that is so that is so good because that's a clear message to Democrats who now they're not gonna like the message, but it wasn't just the Republicans and conservatives that did this to them. It's their own people who said you guys have gone too far.

The Fear And Power Of Labels

SPEAKER_03 10:28

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Well, listen, Kelly's uh got a few minutes to share with us today, so we're gonna take a quick break. When we come back, Kelly Shacofer will be with us from First Liberty. Stay with us, you're listening to the Wall Builders Show.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

This is Tim Barton from Wall Builders with another moment from American history. After the final victory at Yorktown, the Continental Army awaited the outcome of peace negotiations with Great Britain. Pastor Israel Evans, a chaplain in the Army, proposed to George Washington that they build a structure where church services could be held during the months of waiting. Washington approved the plan and urged his officers to ensure that the soldiers attended service. Pastor Evans further knew, if we were to secure the liberties they had fought for, sound education would be crucial. He declared, every parent and every friend to the freedom of his country ought to be attentive to the improvement of our youth and the principles of freedom and good government. And then the people will stand fast in their liberty for a long time. Our schools today need to return to teaching the principles of freedom and good government in order for America to survive and prosper. For more information about Pastor Israel Evans and other colonial patriots, go to wallbuilders.com.

SPEAKER_03 11:43

Welcome back to the Wall Builder Show. Thanks for staying with us. Kelly Shackerford back with us from First Liberty. Kelly, appreciate it, man. Thanks for coming on. Happy to do it, Rick. Well, big case. I mean, this is uh this is a big deal for the Supreme Court to go 8-1 and say, you know, listen, you you have the you have a constitutional right to to counsel, and and of course, with all the kids that have had this poison poured into them, um, we need counselors that can give biblical counsel and just truth about science and and sexuality. Yeah, it's it's a big case.

SPEAKER_04 12:14

I think it's more important than most people know because I mean free speech violations are bad, right? And everybody knows that. We don't want the government controlling our speech. But the the the very worst of all violations is when the government says, hey, I know there's this controversial topic or this thing where that America divides over. We're gonna pass law and making it a crime for you to present a viewpoint that's different from the government's. Um that's what they did here. I mean, it wasn't you know, here's the funny thing is it the law uh was not about, you know, what the other side could do, which is they could not only counsel young people towards changing their sex, but they could actually counsel them towards drugs and all kinds of you know, alterations that they would suffer from the rest of their lives. So on that side, totally okay. But on the other side, you can't even talk about the fact of somebody being comfortable with the fact that they were made a male or they were created a female. Even if that person was coming to you because they were a Christian and they were looking for a Christian to help them in that. So boy, talk about a this is like a 1984 kind of, you know, this is like a talk about Big Brother and oppression and you know, we're not gonna let people even get the counseling they want from people who are like-minded because we the government are determining which side of the issue can speak.

SPEAKER_03 13:53

Yeah, and just to pile onto that, as far as like the worst case scenario of of you know government preventing that speech, we're dealing with the m such vulnerable kids here that that that really are struggling and they and they're looking for help, and you're basically saying you can only be helped by those who you know share the government's view on the on this particular issue. So incredibly bad.

SPEAKER_04 14:14

And we filed on behalf of Heartbeat International in this uh because viewpoint discrimination, you you can imagine if you can do it here, you can certainly do it on the pro-life issue, you can do it on any issue, certainly any biblical belief that anybody has. So, you know, Colorado is really a dangerous place, you know. You think about the stuff they've tried to criminalize. Uh, you know, uh Jack Phillips and those kinds of cases, and now here they are, you know, Kaylee Childs, who is a sweet lady. I mean, she actually testified at the uh Religious Liberty Commission where I'm a commissioner, uh, and she was wonderful. And she she had her own trauma growing up, which made her realize she wanted to counsel people and help them. And uh what a heart of gold uh Christian and uh and you know she didn't try to push things on people, she she would sit down, and the first thing she would do is ask people kind of where they wanted to go with things, what their goals were. And so if there were believers like her, she could take them down those roads and try to help them towards those biblical truths. And the idea that the government can come in and say, no, you can't have that conversation, uh, is is really appalling. And uh that's why it it, I mean, you know, you got two liberals who join the majority that on that. That's it was eight to one. So that tells you something.

SPEAKER_03 15:39

You read my mind. That was gonna be my next question. I was gonna say, all right, look, Kelly, I know you're not shocked that the justice who doesn't know what a woman is would not want other people to know what a woman is. But are you shocked that the other two liberals went this way? That was literally my next question for you. So I I was. I mean, I was I was like, this must be so far out there if you get those two liberals to go with us.

More First Amendment Victories And Cases

SPEAKER_04 16:00

It is, and uh, I tell you, it's it's it's it's fascinating because there's been some articles about how Kagan, Justice Kagan, and her um concurrents, uh, in other words, she agreed with a majority, she and Sotomayor, who were considered two of the three liberals, um, she she goes after Jackson a little bit and basically says that Jackson just doesn't even understand the law. Um I think the first sentence in the in the Jackson dissent is that uh in the area of the medical profession, uh the First Amendment really doesn't apply. And yeah, and uh and so you start immediately going, huh. I don't think that's what you said in the Dobbs case. I don't yeah, I don't think I don't think that's what you said in the Schermetti case, um, which is about you know whether you could have states that pass laws that said you can't do sex change on children that they're gonna be suffering from the rest of their life. So all of a sudden she says there are no rights, you know, there are no lawsuits. But in in Skirmetti she thought there were was, and in Dobbs she thought there was. So uh it just it I think you know this is one of those things that Americans know um that this is wrong. And you can't give the government this kind of power because this would just be step one.

SPEAKER_03 17:23

Yeah, yeah. Well, hey man, before I let you go, any uh I know you've got a ton of cases going right now. Any of those you want to update us on?

SPEAKER_04 17:30

Well, the biggest news, of course, is we won uh the Olivier case at the U.S. Supreme Court just two weeks ago. Um this is the case with the guy who uh was trying to share the gospel uh and he they created a 10 by 10 box that was the free speech area that was over a football field away from the amphitheater where everybody was, so he couldn't talk to anybody. And then they uh uh handcuffed him when he walked outside of that, and then they told him he couldn't bring a lawsuit. And we went to the Supreme Court and uh we did even better than the child's case. We ended up winning nine to zero at the Supreme Court that every American citizen has a right to have their day in court when their First Amendment rights are violated, and so this is that was a really important victory, not only for the right to share the gospel, but but also for just the right of any American and who you know wants to have their day in court for their First Amendment rights.

SPEAKER_03 18:24

I I would say, my friend, I'm nervous that that you had a case that Katanji Brown Jackson agreed with. That makes me, you know, question my friendship here. No, but but you got the other eight with her, so that's good. Um interestingly enough, it's you know, you also had the other standing case, you didn't have it, but the the country had the other standing case with regard to being a candidate on the ballot, that you actually do have standing to bring a suit on election fraud issues or whatever else it might be. So two cases that basically are saying we're not gonna prevent people from having their day in court, which is not where we were four or five years ago. So this is it's a big deal.

SPEAKER_04 18:59

And I probably our most recent case that everybody has seen, it was all over Fox and everything else, is we represent Paige Rogers, who um she was just working at a coffee shop, she was a college student, and um and she was fired. And you say, well, and by text, why? Well, because two of her her uh fellow employees found out that she went to a Christian school, and so they began to pepper her with questions about what her faith taught about you name the controversial sexual issue, you know, uh LGBT, transgender, etc. And she very sweetly and honestly answered the questions and they tape recorded it and gave it to their boss, and the boss fired her. So evidently, if somebody asks you your religious beliefs and you respond truthfully, then that's a basis for firing. Well, that's obviously not the case, it's not the law, and this coffee shop's in big trouble in Louisville, Kentucky.

SPEAKER_03 19:58

And so this is just down at the district court level. So you guys have already reached out to the company, they're not yeah, yeah.

Patriot Academy Leadership Invitation

SPEAKER_04 20:04

We we we file actually the first step in an employment case is you file with the EEOC. So that was our first step. And I I, you know, you don't ever know, but because but uh EEOC can take whatever cases they want, but I have a feeling the Donald Trump uh uh Equal Employment Opportunity Commission will see this for what it is and immediately begin to get involved. And if so, it's not gonna be just First Liberty, it's gonna be the United States government on behalf of little Paige Crosby against uh any company that wants to do this kind of thing to people.

SPEAKER_03 20:36

Love it. Love it. Well, man, keep it going. Firstliberty.org, folks. Be sure and get on their email list so you can keep up with all these cases. Make your donations there because uh Kelly and his team do an incredible job and we need them on the front lines. Appreciate you, man. Thanks for coming on today. Always great to be with you, Rick. That's Kelly Shockerford at First Liberty. Again, the website, firstliberty.org. We'll be right back with David and Tim Barker.

SPEAKER_02 21:01

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SPEAKER_03 22:04

Welcome back to the Wobbler Show. We're back with David and Tim now. Special thanks to Kelly Shackerford. And by the way, firstliberty.org. Definitely a website you want to get on and get on their email list. Um, you know, man, guys, I I I do think I I was most shocked not by you know Jackson voting against it, but the fact that, you know, David, you mentioned it before the interview that uh that two of the liberals actually well went with the the moderates and the conservatives on this one. So that's a that's a big victory.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

Well, and as Kelly pointed out, the fact that one of the liberal justices kind of took shots at Katanji Brown Jackson. So not only were they on the opposite side, they're like, you're kind of dumb for not being on this side with us. Like, this is not complicated. What are you doing right now? So both of those. I was shocked that they those two liberal justices joined with the common sense position, but I was more shocked that they took shots at one of their fellow justices in this specific situation. Um, but Rick, as you pointed out, when when you can't define what a woman is, it's not surprising that you're landing on the wrong side of the conversation about who you're attracted to or what you can say, et cetera, et cetera.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

Well, also interesting to me in this was that Gorsuch is the one who wrote the majority opinion. And Gorsuch is not considered a conservative justice. He's kind of that moderate middle. And the reason that he's in the moderate middle is he's been the weakest guy of all the so-called conservatives on LGBTQIA plus issues. That's right. He comes down to the wrong side of them again and again. And he wrote the decision on this, which is certainly considered one of those issues that he had been weak on previously. So I think that that's a fairly, and maybe that's why they let him write it, you know, we'll send a message. I don't know. I'm not playing with the politics of the Supreme Court. But the fact that he wrote that to me, that that was a significant statement that he did that. But coming out of Colorado as this did, there are so many goofy things that have happened in Colorado, particularly since Jared Polis has been their governor. And the good news is that Colorado is going to have three statewide initiatives this year on the ballot that would tend to roll things back. If Coloradans really think this is crazy, uh, some of the stuff that's going on, they'll have a chance with three ballot initiatives. And I really do think, and there's I think 18 ballot initiatives that we're kind of watching that are have a moral tone to them or constitutional moral overtone, and a whole lot of them are in blue states. And I really expect that even those blue states we're gonna see some red victories on these ballot initiatives. I think that the people will end up voting differently from what their legislature's been doing. We'll see. But I think Colorado is one that could come out with two, maybe three big passing initiatives that just roll back so much of the junk that's gone on there in the last ten years.

SPEAKER_03 24:52

You know, actually, David, we're gonna have uh Tim Mooney with us either tomorrow or Wednesday talking about that. Uh Morning in America is his organization, and they've been involved in it in dozens of these uh ballot measures. So we'll get an update on how they're doing, and to your point, could it have an impact on you know, not only not only winning that particular issue, but how much of an impact does it have on races in that state and certainly the future of that state.

SPEAKER_01 25:13

Well, I and guys, too, one of the things that Rick, I'm I'm glad you asked the question uh about other cases that they've been going on, because even the the Olivier case where the the the pastor gets arrested and doesn't have a right to bring a lawsuit. I mean, just crazy. And the fact that in this one also kind of humorous, when Katanji Brown Jackson even agrees that the left went too far, you know they really went too far when it is a unanimous nine-zero decision. But guys, this is one of the things we've been talking about for a while that the the courts are actually upholding constitutional perspective in ways overall that we have not seen them doing this good of a job in in our lifetime. And certainly there's still things we disagree with, we think they get wrong at times, but it's definitely encouraging in some of these cases and situations to see them upholding what should be some basic constitutional positions.

SPEAKER_03 26:10

Yeah, I know it would be redundant to point out the hypocrisy of the left, but but on that case, Tims that you brought it up, it's kind of interesting. You know, the left is always talking about access to to uh you know justice for for the poor and that kind of thing. And they actually use a lot of that for funneling a lot of money to NGOs that then do leftist activity. But access to the courts for a preacher, oh no, that would be uh not something that they would be for. Uh so this was that that was certainly a big big big victory. And fortunately, like you said, even the three liberals on the court went the right way on that one. Out of time for today, folks. Thanks for listening. You've been listening to the Waffeler Show.