Setting The Stakes: Kids First

SPEAKER_04 0:07

Welcome to the intersection of faith and culture. Great to have you with us here on the Wall Builder Show. Taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective. Rick Green here with David Barton and Tim Barton. Websites are wallbuilders.com and wallbuilders.show. Them before us, guys. Today's topic is literally about the children. You know, we used to, Rush Limbaugh used to joke about how the left would claim it was for the children, and they were usually undermining uh the policies that would actually be good for the family and good for children. Katie Faust will be with us a little later, specifically talking about policies that are good for kids. So looking forward to having her back. We had her just, I don't know, three, four months ago, but good to have her back.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

Yeah, it'd be great to have her back. She spoke to the legislators' conference this year, and she's got a great initiative going. And it really goes back to some things that we've been trying to do for the last several years, and that's kind of get marriage, uh traditional marriage back as the foundation of the family and the country as well. I mean, it's always been kind of a thing that you can tell when a nation is headed down in the wrong direction by what it does with traditional marriage and family, et cetera. And when the Supreme Court, back to the surprise of us all in 2015, said, hey, we're going to redefine marriage. We don't care really how it's been for thousands of years or other cultures, we're going to have a new definition in America. Thank you, Justice Kennedy, for flip-flopping on that and putting that to us. Since then, Katie has really been emphasizing traditional family and going back to it. And there's a statement that they have as the organization that I've been thinking about a lot. And she says it's an organization, she describes it as an organization dedicated to defending the kids' rights to have a mother and a father. And I thought, well, yeah, kids' rights to have a mother and father. If you're a kid, you got a mother and a father, except I was thinking about that in the sense of what that actually means. A lot of kids today don't get to choose their parents. And especially with what's going on now with gay couples and gay couples adopting their children and others. And instead of having the right to have a mother and a father, which is normal, traditional, natural marriage and family, you've now got a number of kids being raised in a situation where they never get exposed to a mother or a father, and they never have that aspect. And, you know, we've talked about how that God made them male and female, and the Bible says male and female made he them. And they said he said they're made in the image of God. And it really takes male and female to understand who God is, because you know, there's some characteristics that are kind of common for males or females. Maybe one's got greater strength, one's got greater beauty, one's got more tenderness, one's got more strength, whatever. But it takes both of that to have the image of God because God is gentle, but he's also powerful. And so all of those things together, and so you're you're looking now at kids growing up without a knowledge of what it means to be made in the image of God because they've never seen that expressed with two genders. And that was something I had not thought of before, how that you have a generation of kids now being raised without any kind of exposure to what those genders are. And her statement that every kid has a right to a mother and a father to know that male and female influence, that's really significant. And so with what she talked about this year at the legislators conference, and I think what she's going to talk about today, just that background, it really does make a difference that you have a mother and a father at least available in the home.

SPEAKER_02 3:34

Well, and Dad, to your point, this is something that not every kid in this generation is experiencing a home without a mother and a father, but it's becoming increasingly normalized. And that's part of what she's battling against. And certainly when you look at some of the culture warriors on the left and the things they are advocating for, it's it's not simply the destruction of the nuclear family, it's the destruction of any kind of identity that might be able to represent they were created in the image of God. Because if you look at what we are doing with the transgender, the furry, and the things that are happening in culture around us, it is directly spitting in the face of the idea that we were made in God's image and we are image bearers of God. And a lot of what happens in culture is driven on selfish motivation, on fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. And one of the things that she is brilliantly pointing out is we should really be reframing this because who is ultimately the one being hurt and penalized the most in this? It's kids. Kids should not be the pawns in some social experiment game or in some uh homosexual want to play home kind of game or et cetera, et cetera. And so she has done an incredible job of helping lead a movement of organizing individuals to have some common messaging because there's already a lot of people that have been on the same page, but she is brilliantly putting forward some messaging and strategy in some of this. And so we were happy, Dad, as you mentioned, to have her to the legislators conference. And we are happy to partner with her in some of these initiatives going forward, and now we're happy to have her on the radio program.

Introducing Katie Faust

SPEAKER_04 5:14

Katie Faust, she's the founder and president of Vim Before Us. Uh, you've read her articles probably in Newsweek, USA Today, the Federalist. I mean, all kinds of places, and as Tim and David mentioned, had her at the legislators conference to help inform and equip those legislators. But today she's going to inform and equip all of us. So we're looking forward to having her. We'll take a quick break. We'll be right back. You're listening to the Wall Builder Show.

SPEAKER_02 5:41

This is Tim Barton from Wall Builders with another moment from American history. American Patriot Paul Revere wrote to alert Americans of the impending arrival of the British, but he also stopped Patriot leaders Samuel Adams and John Hancock to warn them that the British were staking their execution. Adams and Hancock were staying with the Reverend Jonas Clark in Lexington. When they asked Pastor Clark if his church was ready for the approaching British, he replied, I've trained them for this very hour. They will fight and, if need be, die under the shadow of the House of God. Later that morning, 70 men from his church faced several hundred British in the first battle of the war for independence. As Pastor Clark affirmed, the militia that morning were the same who filled the pews of the church meeting house on the Sunday morning before. The American church was regularly at the forefront of the fight for liberty. For more information on this pastor and other colonial patriots, go to wallbuilders.com.

SPEAKER_04 6:41

Welcome back to the Wallbuilder Show. Thanks for staying with us. Katie Faust back with us from Them Before Us. Katie, God bless you. Keep up the great work and thanks for coming on.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Thank you, Rick. Nice thing about being with you is I finally have a host that matches my energy. So uh I really appreciate you coming on at an 11 out of 10 here.

SPEAKER_04 6:59

Well, that comes from being around David Barton all these years and him talking 100 miles an hour. And I'm like, I have to drink lots of coffee to keep up with him.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

Very good. Well, here's hoping that your guests only have to listen at 1.3 speed to this because we're gonna go fast. We're gonna dial them down for the from the 1.8 that they're used to.

SPEAKER_03 7:15

I love it. I love it. Well, you were on with us, uh, I guess a few months back. It's been a little while.

Them Before Us Mission

SPEAKER_04 7:20

So before we even get into today's uh topic, catch us up on uh them before us, who you guys are, what you're doing, and how people can get involved with you.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

Uh, we are the only organization dedicated to defending children's right to their mother and father, which means we are going to give you the child-centric perspective on the definition of marriage, divorce, reproductive technologies, modern families, cohabitation, thruples, birth certificates, the definition of parentage and adoption. In all of those conversations, we are going to say you need to put kids first. This is primarily about their rights and their needs, not primarily about adult desire, adult identity, and adult validation. Um and the main thing that we are working on, well, we've got several projects, but the newest one is the Greater Than Campaign, which is specifically targeting gay marriage. We want to overturn Oberger Fell. And we, along with probably close to a hundred different partners, um, 50 of which you can see on our website, greater thancampaign.com, are saying that exact thing. All different corners of conservatism and Christianity, uh, Catholics and Protestants, influencers like Michael Knowles and Allie Stuckey, to thinkers like Robert George, to Christian, you know, um leaders like John Stone Street and Sean McDowell, um, and organizations like AFA and the pro-life family um legislative network that's connected to wall builders. It is all of conservatism speaking with one voice, saying, when it comes to marriage, don't touch the kids. This institution is for them not a vehicle of your adult fulfillment.

SPEAKER_04 8:50

Amen. Amen. So good, man. And there's, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I I think even in the last couple of years, the um understanding of this, which results in the support or um opposition to changing the definition of marriage um has changed. That for the first time in a long, long time, it's gone down instead of up. Is that true?

The Greater Than Campaign

SPEAKER_00 9:11

That's exactly right. You know, um, we were not at uh parity when it came to approval for same-sex marriage in 2015, but then it skyrocketed and went up to, you know, close to 75% in 2022. But then it started to come down, especially among Republicans. We saw a 16-point drop among people that identify as on the right. And now we're looking at approval for same-sex marriage of Republicans around 49%. So it has tanked among those on the right. Part of that, I think a large part of it, is because we understand that the T in LGBT went too far and everybody went upstream and said, wait a second, if gender doesn't matter in marriage, then obviously it doesn't matter on the sports field or in the locker room or in the clinic. Um, but we realized biology does matter and gender does matter. And if it matters um in the swimming pool or on the track, then it definitely matters in the institution that makes and raises babies. So we are capitalizing on that very palatable vibe shift. And we're telling people that you're uncomfortable for a reason. That is because we instituted the definition of the family that overrides biological reality, and children are paying the price.

SPEAKER_04 10:24

Amen. Yeah, it's almost like the pain and the uh just the reality uh check of the craziness that that it went to has awakened a lot of people. And and so not only kind of the absurdity of having these guys competing in sports and and all in girl sports and all of these different things caused kind of jarred people into thinking, it does seem, now you you're closer to this and deal with this every day, it does seem there are more pastors today than five years ago willing to speak truth on these issues where most just ran from this and wouldn't touch it, uh, so afraid of offending anyone, even if they're just speaking biblical truth. Are you sensing a change on that front? And is that helping with those numbers as Christians begin to get an actual biblical position on this issue instead of a, oh, this feels good or feels bad?

Public Opinion Shifts

SPEAKER_00 11:15

Yeah, a hundred percent. So I see that in a couple different areas. The first one is when I first started to uh tweet, and uh when I first got my nonprofit in 2018, I would post a picture of two men in a hospital with a shivering newborn on their hairy chest. And I would say, This is an injustice. Children need their mothers, they should not be commodified, they should not be bought and sold. And very often the response from the uh the rabble was uh all I see is two loving parents. That is not the case anymore. Now I post a picture of two men with a shivering newborn on their hairy chest, very clearly lifted off of the woman they commercially rented to gestate this custom-ordered product. And I say, This is an injustice, children need their mothers. And everyone will quote, retweet and say things like, My politics is whatever makes this illegal. So I think that's two things. We have seen the direct connection between the validation of marriage that has dropped either man or woman from its definition to parenthood that has dropped either mother or father from that arrangement. And people have said, Hey, look, if this is just about you guys feeling like you're not second-class citizens, fine. But if this means you're denying children their mother and father, that's a problem with me. But here's the other thing we launched this coalition about a month ago, and we had um at the time about 37 public partners. We had major uh figures in our trailer video, you know, Tony Perkins at the Family Research Council and John Stone Street and Albert Moeller and Ali Stuckey and Lila Rose and Josh Hammer and Michael Knowles and you know, everybody was in this uh three-minute clip that went viral. Like we had five million impressions in the first week. In addition to that, we had all kinds of other state-level allies and national allies. You can go to greaterthancampaign.com, look at the about us page, look at all the different people that are on board with this. There was such backlash. I mean, obviously, all the right people were happy and all of the wrong people were scared out of their boots, which they should be because this is a genuine threat. And there was weeping and gnashing of teeth. If you go to the YouTube video of, you know, that three-minute clip of all of us talking about why marriage is why gay marriage is an injustice to children, you're going to see hundreds of negative comments. What I loved is nobody lynched. Nobody. Nobody in the coalition, nobody in the video. We have had since then about 20 other organizations say we want to join with you. So to me, that looks like Christianity growing a spine. That looks like people saying, You can say what you want, you can threaten, you can rattle, you can call us names, and we're not going to move because you are inflicting very real harm to children, and it is the church's job to say no to you. So I am I am very encouraged.

SPEAKER_04 14:00

Oh, it's uh yeah, it is exactly what you just described. It's the church not only finding its voice, but having a spine to to stand by that once they once they speak out. And you've got kind of a three-step strategy plan. We've already touched on two of those three pretty quickly changing public opinion. We we watched a little bit of that happen, but we've got to do do more and more of that. Uh the church being transformed into a fighting force for this and and uh being willing to stand stronger. Then your your other one is the the judicial and policy strategy, where we really do focus on the kid and not how the parent is feeling and uh you know what's what's gonna make them feel good. I mean, so many movies, so many television shows where the dad leaves or the mom leaves because they just yeah, they just feel like it, or they just feel better, or they gotta be happy or whatever. That nonsense is seeped into the culture. And what you're saying is, you know, continuing to counter that, both in terms of public opinion but judicial. So that was a long setup to the question on the judicial side. People forget that you had, for instance, Justice Kennedy completely flip his vote on this um within, you know, two years. And I guess it depended on if he woke up and had Cheerios that morning or Fruit Loops, which way his decision was going to go. But I don't think people realize it it was it was a close call. And and we can win this. This isn't a foregone conclusion that this is quote unquote the law of the land. This was a Supreme Court opinion that was based on changing opinions of Supreme Court justices. So, with that setup, what how would you describe to people the judicial and policy strategy?

Pastors Regaining Courage

SPEAKER_00 15:25

Very uh high-level overview. What it is that gay marriage did is it flattened all distinctions in the natural family. What can what Justice Kennedy said is there can be no difference between heterosexual and homosexual couples as it relates to the constellation of benefits of marriage. But the constellation of benefits connects to parenthood. So now the law was forced to accomplish what biology prohibits, which is making two men the parents of a child, or two women the parents of a child. So what we've seen over the last 10 years is an erasure of all of the distinctives of the natural family, like elevating a procreative aspect of marriage, like recognizing that men and women, mothers and fathers, are important to a child, like a biological connection to both parents. And if not, then adoption to safeguard the rights of the child if they can't be raised by their mom or dad. So what gay marriage did is it says biology doesn't matter. We're gonna create new pathways for unrelated adults to acquire children without adoption screening. Gender doesn't matter. Now it doesn't matter whether or not it's two men or two women or three men or one woman. That doesn't matter. Uh, we are going to say procreation, obviously, doesn't matter. Infertility has been redefined so that single or same-sex couples can avail themselves to state subsidized or insurance subsidized IVF so they can manufacture motherless and fatherless children. Now the only criteria left as it relates to what makes a family is did the adult get exactly what they want? It doesn't matter the number of parents, the gender of parents, whether or not the parent is a criminal or a pedophile or a foreign national. You can mass produce children. I mean, now all of the different aspects of the natural family that were really important to children, their development, their identity, and their safety have been erased. So we're gonna ask a different question. The question before the court, the question that Justice Kennedy was so concerned about is do gay people have dignity? And the answer is, of course they do. They're our brothers, our sisters, our friends, our children. We love them. They have dignity, they're also made in the image of God. That is not the right question when you're talking about marriage. The question we will put before the court through our judicial strategy is not do gay people have dignity. The question is does a child need and benefit from their own mother and father, or is a state-assigned stranger just as good? So we are actually going to be asking a completely different question. We are playing a completely different game than we were playing in 2015, and we're going to get a different outcome.

From Dignity Claims To Child Harm

SPEAKER_04 18:05

Amen. Amen. Oh, so good. Katie, you're so good at this. I I love having you on the program. The Bartons love having you. Uh, we got to do this more often. I'd love to get you with our with our constitution coaches as well. Uh, we've got to win this fight. And, you know, you you I I think I was telling somebody this just the other day, the most vehement opposition, I I think I could say this for wall builders as well. I know I can say it for Patriot Academy and for me as a legislator years ago, the most vehement opposition almost always came down to this issue. And and and and it it would be it would be masked in other things, but at the end of the day, you would find out, oh, that's this person's real motivation and um uh hatred for us because we would stand for biblical marriage and for protecting the the kids. Is that you know the fact that all of these people that you had in the video uh um and and are in in this movement haven't flinched and haven't been not scared. I don't think they were even scared in the past. I think it was just uh they they they preferred to pick take on other fights because this one was so vitriolic. Um man, it it their opposition has not changed, their their tactics have not changed, but our side just just stronger, more emboldened. What how do you how do you describe it?

SPEAKER_00 19:21

I agree, and I'll tell you exactly why. Like I th I know that there's a lot of people that did not move on the topic of marriage, even though supposedly the culture did, and now we were on the wrong side of history. I mean, I know a lot of people that said I don't care what five Supreme Court justices say, this is the truth. But what I do see is a new boldness to speak publicly about it, and I'll tell you why. It's because we are reframing the victim. The reason why we have the massive cultural and legal overhaul that we are seeing today is because gay adults successfully framed themselves as victims. If we do not get to redefine the most child-friendly institution the world has ever known, we are victims. And unfortunately, the culture and the courts went along with that. But the reality is, and you know, here I'll say one other thing the the right got it wrong when it came to opposing gay marriage because we said, oh no, because if you get gay marriage, Christian adults are going to be the victims. We will have to bake cakes or sign marriage licenses or arrange flowers that we don't want to arrange. They are not the right victims. Okay, adults are not the victims of marriage policy gone wrong. Children are the victims. And I don't know a lot of people that will lose friends over saying this person should be able to opt out of photographing a gay wedding. But I know a lot of people that will say, I'll lose friends over saying you should not purchase and sell children for heterosexual or homosexual men who might be pedophiles who can acquire them because we're now under an Obergefeld regime that says that if you intend to parent the child, then you get the baby. But there is a framework of understanding that children are the victims that not only embolden people to speak up because it is socially costly, but it also makes so much sense of what God has made explicitly clear in his word. It gives the why behind what God says. So properly understanding that children are victimized through bad marriage policy is going to be the way that we change this, not just in the courts, but in the court of public opinion as well.

SPEAKER_04 21:27

Ah, so good. So good. And you're so right. And this isn't theory, this isn't, we don't have to wonder if this will happen. It's like every week there's another headline of someone that's that's been, you know, uh arrested or convicted for pedophilia, who was set up as a parent and set up as a, you know, a couple to uh two guys to to take these kids. Anyway, it's just disgusting and awful and wrong. And we're finally, you know, people are are waking up to that. Um so thank you, thank you, thank you. All right, let's do the website again, greater than campaign.com. Greater than campaign.com. People can sign up. There, get involved, uh, learn how to articulate this issue with their friends and their their family, get pastors to speak on this more. Uh, the three steps, one more time: a judicial and policy strategy that centers children's needs, changing public opinion so Americans understand the link between natural marriage and child protection, and then a church transformed into a child-centered fighting force. Katie Faust, God bless you. Let's get you back really soon.

Judicial And Policy Strategy

SPEAKER_00 22:24

It's always great to be with you. We love wall builders. If you want to talk about people that stand firm and have a spine, you guys have been doing it longer than almost anyone else.

SPEAKER_04 22:34

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Stay with us, folks. We'll be right back with David and Tim Barton.

SPEAKER_02 22:43

Hey, this is Tim Barton with Wall Builders. And as you've had the opportunity to listen to Wall Builders Live, you've probably heard the wealth of information about our nation, about our spiritual heritage, about the religious liberties, about all the things that makes America exceptional. And you might be thinking, as incredible as this information is, I wish there was a way that I could get one of the wall builders' guys to come to my area and share with my group, whether it be a church, whether it be a Christian school or public school or some political event or activity. If you're interested in having a wall builder speaker come to your area, you can get on our website at www.wallbuilders.com and there's a tab for scheduling. And if you'll click on that tab, you'll notice there's a list of information from speakers' bios to events that are already going on, and there's a section where you can request an event to bring this information about who we are, where we came from, our religious liberties and freedoms. Go to the wall builders website and bring a speaker to your area.

SPEAKER_04 23:47

Thanks to Katie Fowles for joining us again. Her website, thembeforeuss.com. That's thembefore us.com. Back with David and Tim Barton. And guys, it looks like the you know, potentially the pushback and the and the and the ability to overturn uh yet another bad Supreme Court decision from the last couple of decades is in the works.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

Well, I'll tell you, it it's it's really fun to see how many things the court has retreated from in the past eight to ten years that it did 10, 15, 20, 40 years ago, 60 years ago, 70 years ago. So it's coming back to a much more constitutional position. And in doing that, I I mean she had so many good statements about this, but in 2015, I love what you said is the court said biology doesn't matter and gender doesn't matter. And you know that's really true. That that's really what's taken over in the last 11 years is biology doesn't matter, gender doesn't matter, we're bigger than biology and gender, and we can tell you and that's just not working out. And we're seeing that in polling, as you Rick, as you talked to her. I mean, the polling is going back in our direction for first time in in a good while. And it was it was significant too that you guys concluded, and I love what you said, it looks like Christianity is growing a spine, you know, which what a weird thing to have to say, because with Christ you should have that boldness. The righteous are bold as a lion. You shouldn't have to grow a spine if you're a Christian, but American Christianity has become so wimpy and so tolerant of everything that accepts everything. And it's just it is good to see things starting to move back in that direction. Now, this is not going to be an easy battle necessarily. I mean, the other side puts a lot more effort in this than we've been putting into it, but I do think things are starting to change. Well, thanks to Katie Fowles for joining us.

Reframing The Victim: Children

SPEAKER_04 25:28

ThembeforeUs.com is the website. ThembeforeUs.com. And just almost like a Good News Friday, we're seeing these things turn around on these major, major issues, where it looked like we'd just had these huge, huge defeats and now in a few short years, starting to turn the tide, uh, even seeing the polling data change and of course um these efforts to potentially turn things around at the court as well. So really appreciate all the hard work they're doing over at them before us, and thanks to Katie for joining us on the program today as well. Be sure to visit our websites today, wallboulders.com and wobbleders.show. The dot show is, of course, the website for the radio program. You can catch up on programs you might have missed. Typically our weeks are Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, interviews with special guests like Katie today, and then Thursdays, Foundations of Freedom Thursday. That's your chance to ask questions. You can send those questions to radio at wallboulders.com. And then Fridays, our good news Fridays, a great program to share with your friends and family. I hear from people all the time. It's our favorite day of the week because they love getting the good news. But all of that is available at our radio site, wallboulders.show. And then don't forget wallboulders.com, our main website. Get your pastors signed up for our pastors' briefings in Washington, D.C. Get your young people signed up for the programs this summer, both at Patriot Academy and the Wall Builders Leadership Training Program. All of that available right there at WallBuilders.com. Thanks so much for listening to the Wall Builders Show.