Rick Green [00:00:07] To the intersection of faith and culture. It's The WallBuilders Show. Thanks for joining us today. Website is wallbuilders.com, and then the other one is wallbuilders.show, wallbuilder.com for most of our information, and the radio program over at wallbuilders.show. I'm Rick Green here with David Barton and Tim Barton. We're taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective. We have a lot of great guests that join us, and later in the program, Kelly Shackelford will be back with us. First Liberty. Great organization, they won so many cases at the Supreme Court, and so many battles on the ground that they didn't even have to take to court because they just wrote the right letter and went in and got the Constitution followed even by a lot of schools and different places that were infringing on religious liberty. So, we love those guys, appreciate what they do, firstliberty.org is their website. David, Tim, this topic is essentially seeing the contrast of what the Trump administration and meaning when we say Trump Administration, sometimes I think we have to be more specific. That includes all of the agencies that are out there, including the Department of Education, that we don't think it's constitutional, but while it's there, instruction that it gives to schools can have a lot of influence on how much religious expression is allowed. So, wow, what a difference a president makes. This is so different than when Biden was president. 

David Barton [00:01:20] Well, it's amazing that Trump has aggressively rolled out some really good initiatives and he has really stayed within what I think all of us consider sound constitutional guidelines. I mean, he hasn't pushed the envelope, but he has them backed away from anything like prayer in schools. I mean he; he's not saying radical things that would trigger everybody. He's just saying, hey, here's what you definitely can do. Here's what the court's really clear about. And you need to be doing this because you can do it. And so, he's encouraging people to move forward within the territory they already own, if I can use that little descriptor. I mean, it's not like taking new ground, it's just retaking ground that the other side has taken that we didn't have to give up. Here about a month ago for the National Prayer Breakfast, Trump took that to roll out two new initiatives and their initiatives really in the sense of trying to make Americans aware of what you can do. And one of them was called America Prays. And he's encouraging Americans to dedicate themselves to spend one hour a week to pray for the nation, and America people, and all the stuff here. And he's asking people to get with 10 others and pray. And so, what a, you know, I wish churches would do that. Hey, guys, pray an hour a week and get with ten other people and pray, and so here's the President, nothing unconstitutional with what he's done. It's a great encouragement, and he said, Hey guys, this is called America Prays and what we're going to do is we're gonna have a massive national gathering at the mall on the National Day of Prayer. So, for the next, what's that? That's May the 17th or something, sort of middle of May. But for the three months, essentially, hey, let's all pray an hour a week for America and let's get 10 people with you and pray. And that's just, that's great stuff. I mean, that just really good, coming from the President, everybody needs to be doing that. 

Tim Barton [00:03:13] Let me, let me offer some, some thought on that. That's it's May 17th is when Trump is going to have a rededication of America to God up in Washington DC, which is going to be amazing. We're actually going to try to be there cause we think it's going to be so cool, but I was talking to some pastor friends and they pointed out that's on a Sunday. I don't know who was Trump's advisor on this saying, hey, you should do this huge event on Sunday because there would have been so many pastors who would have wanted to be there. And obviously many Christians want to be there, but pastors are like, you know, I work one day a week and that happens to be the day I'm working on a Sunday, May 17th. And I say that knowing what it was because we've had that conversation. So, it's May 17. That's when it's going to happen. And it's gonna be an incredible event and opportunity for Americans and Christians to gather in Washington DC and be part of a rededication of America to God's service. It is super exciting. 

David Barton [00:04:12] Well, I've been to, I think, four events in D.C., where there were a million or more people there. One of them I was at was like two and a half million. And I'm betting this is gonna make another one of those million kind of march. And you don't have to call it the Million Man March and have 15 people show up and be a Million Man march. I mean, I genuinely think there's gonna be that many people there, and I think that's gonna significant, that rededicate in America. And the other piece of guidance he issued is on school prayer. And he said, here's the things you can do in school. And so, he had this through the Department of Education, but he announced it there at the National Prayer Breakfast. And so, what he does is he really emphasizes individual student expression and how that schools can't stop that. It's not saying teachers go do this, although he said teachers, if you want to pray over your meals, that's great. And if kids come to you and say, hey, can we pray with you over our meal too? Say yes, it's great, you don't lose your rights as a teacher just because you happen to do something religious that's constitutional. And so instead of backing, and as pointed out, and I think this is significant, this is almost a restatement of what George W. Bush did in 2003. And think about that. Here we are 23 years later having to reissue the same guidance because we've had this silly opposition that's not constitutional, but they keep pushing against this. So, it's two great things. And so, Kelly is on the Religious Liberty Commission, with him being on the Religious Liberty Commission, they're getting so much testimony on how this stuff is being violated, but it's just great to see Trump really be aggressive in pushing that boundary back and starting to say, we don't have to be a secular nation. It's okay for faith to be present, be seen, be public and be acknowledged. 

Rick Green [00:05:56] Kelly Shackelford, our special guest we'll be right back. You're listening to The WallBuilders Show. 

Rick Green [00:07:06] Welcome back to the WallBuilders Show. Thanks for staying with us. Kelly Shackelford back with us from First Liberty Institute. Kelly, always a pleasure, man. Thanks for some time today. 

Kelly Shakelford [00:07:13] Happy to do it. 

Rick Green [00:07:14] Man, victory after victory after victory, and now we're starting to see some implementation. You know, I forget how many Supreme Court cases you've won the last few years, it's insane. But religious liberty, obviously getting better and better in our country. Specifically, today though, we want to talk about President Trump's proposal on prayer and religious expression in public schools. Already seeing some pushback, even at the state level. I noticed my old, you know, where I used to live in Dripping Springs, their school board voted down adopting, you now, having prayer in the schools. And it's just crazy, even in a red state like Texas, that that's happening. So this is important to do. Just wanted to get an update from you on this. Of course, you're serving on the Religious Liberty Commission, in addition to still litigating so many of these issues. So I'm not even sure what the right first question is to ask you, brother. Just give me an update on what you think, where this is for public schools specifically. 

Kelly Shakelford [00:08:07] Well, the starting point is the Kennedy decision, of course. You know, Coach Kennedy, who was banned from praying, going to a knee by himself after the game and thanking God for the privilege of coaching those young players. And so that's where it started. We won that case in the Supreme Court, six to three. But a lot of people don't know that within the decision, there was this old precedent called Lemon that had been used to really create a sort of a government hostility to religion that we've dealt with for 50 years, and that was totally overturned. So the stuff that we have seen our whole lives, you know, you can't have a Nativity scene, you can have a Menorah at Hanukkah on a government lawn, you can't have a Ten Commandments, you can do all these things, including a famous case 40 years ago, called Stone v. Graham, where the state of Kentucky said, hey, we need to put a Ten Commandments throughout all the public schools, it's part of our you know, our basis of our history, our legal tradition, our religious and moral tradition that kind of undergirds a lot of what you see in the United States. And that was struck down five to four, back then, at the Supreme Court, totally based on Lemon, which is now overturned. So, what's happened is, as these new laws are being passed around the country to bring faith back into communities, one of those things is putting 10 Commandments posters throughout the school, just like they did in Stone v. Graham. We just had really the first one of these, kind of a decision, come down at the Federal Court of Appeals. It was involving both Texas and Louisiana's law, but they only have ruled at this point on the Louisiana law and they threw the case out. So, I think we're going to see this, Rick, a lot. I think some people don't like that we've moved from this old hostility to religion. And anytime people do what you can do now, the ACLU and these types of groups are going to try to test the limits. And I think they're going lose because this is, you know, look back to the Founders, they weren't trying to, sort of, you know, be the religious KGB against religion in public. And yet that's what we've dealt with our whole life, right? I mean, yeah. And I think we suffer, people outside of the constitutional issue, I think it really makes a difference whether faith is allowed in the communities in public-. 

Rick Green [00:10:46] They're encouraged. 

Kelly Shakelford [00:10:47] I think having menorahs and nativity scenes and Ten Commandments and all these parts of our history and our heritage. Of who we are is very different from the naked public square that's somewhat Marxist without values. And we see what comes in to society when you have that, you know, different religions, different backgrounds, different, you, know, I mean, but you have those fundamental, you know principles and beliefs that Judeo-Christian values that the country was built on. I think it changes the country, and I think we're seeing it come back not only with what we've just discussed, but 10 Commandments are going up all over the country right now. I was just at an installation with our friend, Commissioner Matt Krause in Tarrant County, Texas, and when they put it up outside the courthouse there, but it's happened on the lawn in Kentucky in the last few months. Indiana just started the process. We're seeing it at counties all over the country so I think what happened in the Coach Kennedy case is starting to play its way out. And if people wanna look for ideas, things they can do, they can get, we have a website called Restoring Faith in America. It's rfia.org, rfía.org. And I know we're working with WallBuilders and we're workin' with Patriot Mobile and others to just allow people to do things in their own community and make a difference in bringing faith back to their community. 

Rick Green [00:12:23] RFIA.org and yeah, man, it's so cool to see this in communities across the country. Our, our Patriot Academy Constitution coaches are jumping on it. They love it. It's a great way to take action after they do a class and they, and they get to see the interview I did with you on, on coach Kennedy. It a really cool time to be alive and, and watch this happen. So even the Department of Education at the federal level, which I think both of us think should not exist constitutionally, but it does. You know, they had this during the Biden administration instruction to schools, I guess you should say. 

Kelly Shakelford [00:12:55] Guidelines. 

Rick Green [00:12:55] Guidelines, thank you. And like the Trump administration has done with a lot of these agencies, very effectively reversing bad policy to good policy. They have now released their guidelines. What are your thoughts on the difference and is it much more in line with the Coach Kennedy case? 

Kelly Shakelford [00:13:15] Yeah, I mean, number one, they actually, you know, had to update because as you said, we've had a lot of wins at the Supreme Court. I mean we've at 10 religious freedom victories in the last eight years alone at the Supreme Court. 

Rick Green [00:13:29] Wow, that's huge. 

Kelly Shakelford [00:13:29] And the Cokes-Kennedy stuff like that, I mean it wasn't in there in the past and now it's added in. So I think it's better instruction. I mean ,we still think certain places maybe we would, we would increase a little bit, like take the Mahmoud decision. They put some stuff in there, but I don't think enough. That was a huge decision on the authority of parents over their children. But it's a huge shift in the right direction and bringing up to date so that every school district gets from the federal government, hey, look, here are the guidelines on religious freedoms, the things that everybody can pretty much agree on because it's already decided in the case law. And that takes away a lot of the fear and the misinformation. And you hear these terms like "Separation of Church and State" that's not in the constitution. And people just go about whatever they think that means, that thing that's nothing in the Constitution. And it leads to crazy stuff. I mean, that's why we have to come in all the time with school districts and either get them to back down or file a lawsuit. We're not an anti-religious country. We're for religious freedom. And so, it's okay. To have that, and in fact, if you are teaching a school and you don't teach them, if you never mentioned the Ten Commandments, I mean, what a horrible education. That there's not a place you can go, even in the U.S. Supreme Court, and not see Ten Commandments. It's on the wall, it's on outside, why? Because somebody was trying to push some particular religious view? No, because it is a part of the history and tradition. It's the basis of a lot of the philosophy, the understanding both legally, and morally as to why we do things the way we do in America. You might disagree with it. You might not like the Ten Commandments, but you know what, and you might want to get it out, but it's still, it's true. It's a part of our history. It's why, for instance, we believe that our freedoms come from God, not from government, and no one can take them away. If you take that underpinning away, then we're going to be like the other countries that think, well, whatever rights you have or what the government decides you have, that is not what our Founders thought. And you can't really teach kids if you skip over the religious history, traditions, the ideas that really did Infuse the founding of our country.  

Rick Green [00:15:50] Yeah, it leaves out so much of just who we are and the foundation of who we. And of course, Kelly, as you, you know, deal with all the time, the other side is constantly threatening these school districts and sending letters that you can't do that, don't you dare let them do this, and all based on the old decisions. And so, you being there and First Liberty making that information available the schools is critically important and then for the Department of Education actually issue this with the good guidelines. It is just a can I dare say it? Is just we keep winning man more winning we're winning, winning.... 

Kelly Shakelford [00:16:27] Well, and I'll tell you… 

Rick Green [00:16:28] Are you tired of it yet? 

Kelly Shakelford [00:16:29] What? No, I'm not. Um, we're going to keep winning. And I tell you that's the great thing about what you're doing with the Constitution coaches and getting the word out there. You started by saying this school district or that school district backed off doing things. Well, you know what they won't, if the people in their community step up and demand that they do. 

Rick Green [00:16:50] Oh, good point. 

Kelly Shakelford [00:16:50] So it really is up to us. It's up to everybody listening or watching. What our discussion right now in their own community, if you wonder why things aren't in your community, well, have you asked the city council or the county or anybody, why aren't we putting up a Nativity scene? Because I think what you're gonna see happening, whether it's the 10 Commandments or any of these things, when one community, one city, one county does that, all the counties around them are gonna go, we can do that? And it really is going to start to move. We're seeing this with the 10 Commandments monuments already, but what a fun thing to be a part of, of reminding people of the traditions, the history, the underpinning and the beliefs that started our country. 

Rick Green [00:17:38] Love it. Love it, man. Thank you for all you guys are doing first liberty.org? .com? I always forget 

Kelly Shakelford [00:17:46] It's firstliberty.org 

Rick Green [00:17:48] FirstLiberty.org, folks can follow all of you. So many cases we definitely didn't have time to get into that you guys are dealing with, but also just getting those guidelines and rfia.com for the religious…

Kelly Shakelford [00:18:00] .Org

Rick Green [00:18:00] .Org? .Org, .org. Okay, there we go. But also that's a great way to do specific action that the individual can get involved in. And we've got so many people across the country doing that. So, Kelly, God bless you, man. Y'all keep up the great work and let's get you back again soon. 

Kelly Shakelford [00:18:16] Sounds great, thanks Rick. 

Rick Green [00:18:17] Stay with us folks, we'll be right back with David and Tim Barton. 

Rick Green [00:19:27] Welcome back. Thanks for staying with us here on the WallBuilders Show. Thanks to Kelly Shackelford and by the way, the website again, firstliberty.org great organization to support. Okay guys, it is by the way, of course, election day in Texas and a few other places. And so we've got a big primary in Texas. A lot of folks that listen to us are in Texas, certainly want to encourage them to be voting today. Make sure they vote all the way down the ballot. Make sure you hit those propositions, especially prop 10 on Texas, not having Sharia law. But but this a great time guys to just remind people the power of voting in a primary. So many fewer people vote in the primary so it increases your influence you get to have more impact. 

Tim Barton [00:20:08] There's no doubt. And obviously there's primaries going on in Texas, you mentioned, but also North Carolina's today, Arkansas's today. And we, this radio program is broadcast in those states. So, if you're in those States, go vote today. Cause one of the things guys that Kelly pointed out is that oftentimes people get kind of stuck waiting for somebody else to make the decision, waiting for the government to approve it. And he said, we need to go start making things happen. And as, as much as that is correct when it comes to restoring some of the religious freedoms, religious expressions and activities that have been removed over the last 50 years. It's also true that we need to start making sure we are strategically promoting those people doing it by voting in elections, promoting those that have the same ideology. Because one of the things that certainly is a challenge that we have dealt with over many decades is there are oftentimes people that get elected that even though they might have some of the fundamental beliefs correct, at times they still have a faulty idea of; oh well but we're that's not the role of the government, we don't need to have the government pushing for some of these ideas. Even though that's literally been part of our nation for hundreds of years and governments did it specifically. State governments did. Our federal government did it. We had the Founding Fathers who did things like Days of Prayer and Fasting, Days of Prayer and Thanksgiving, like times of Bible study, etc, etc. And so, in the midst of us getting involved and working to restore some of these religious liberties and freedoms, one of the great ways to do that is through primaries. By making sure we are getting the best candidates we can. And sometimes, guys, there is strategy involved, because, and I'm saying this open-ended, knowing that you're gonna respond, which is my goal. Sometimes there's strategy involved because sometimes you might look at a candidate and go, man, it's very clear this one candidate is far better when it comes to some basic constitutional, biblical, conservative principles. They stand far better. But sometimes, if there's two or three or four or five people in a race, you might look at who the top two are and go, you know what? I would rather have this third or fourth person down here. They have better values, but realistically, pragmatically, one of those top two, if they're polling at right 40% and 38%, one of those two are probably going to win. So, I might want to choose one of those probably percentage-wise higher vote getters. And choose the one that is most reflective of my values. So how would y'all recommend as people even today are evaluating and analyzing candidates if there are, because I know in Texas, there's some races where there's two or three or four people in a race and sometimes you might look and go, you know what? I actually kind of like all three people in this race. I kind of liked some of these different names. How would you recommend people navigate if maybe the person they think is the best is the lowest percentile chance to win? Would you recommend shifting and voting for one of the maybe higher percentage vote getter people and use your vote to sway where that goes? What is the recommendation, guys, as we are not just in primary season, but literally three primaries going on today, how should people view this? 

David Barton [00:23:32] You know, I wouldn't go back to first Corinthians 6, and this may sound like a strange analogy, but in first Corinthians 6 Paul says, look, it's okay to eat meat offered to idols. That's okay. We know that an idol is nothing, but if your conscience says you can't do that, then you have to go with your conscience. And I think in some ways that's where voting is too. There's a, I'm looking at a race that's tonight, it's got 12 candidates in the race. And so, 12 candidates, you're gonna have a runoff somewhere. If you're in a state that does runoffs, some states don't. It's whoever's top up top wins or jungle primary like California, but that's not tonight. But if you have 12 people, it pretty much doesn't matter who you vote for because somebody is going into runoffs. And so vote then, but if you've got three people in the race and two are really pretty close and one is polling way ahead of the other and the third person is not a really good person. You want to, it's more important to knock the bad person out than to argue over which of the two good people you're going to put in. And so at that point, sometimes it makes sense to get behind the one that's going to have the most votes so that you can avoid a runoff because then a runoff is lightning can strike and the person that shouldn't win could win because so much money has spent so much fewer voters in a run off and there isn't a primary. Sometimes in those races where you only got a handful of candidates, you make a strategic call that, you know, even this, this is a 97% guy and the other guy's 94%. And I like the 94%. I'm voting for the 97% guy that agrees with me because he's more likely to take out the 42% guy that I disagree with the most. So that's kind of how I go at it. I mean, if there's a bunch of people and then you can't avoid your primary, go where you want. But if you can avoid a primary and get somebody elected and they don't violate your values or your conscience. Sometimes it makes a lot of sense to go pragmatically with that individual and get the bad person out of there. 

Rick Green [00:25:25] Yeah, I totally agree. It's a, it's an equation really. I mean, you gotta factor all those things in and you taught me a long time ago. You know, it has got to be, you got to look at all four categories, able men, such as fear of God, men of truth, hating covetousness. And so if they can't get past that able part, if they're only pulling like one or two or 5%, if they got zero chance, then, then you got be smart and, and go pick one of the better or one of the candidates that may not be quite as good on the policy, you know, maybe a little less good, but they have a actual chance of winning and then, like you said, trying to make sure that the worst candidate doesn't win. And so, it takes analysis. You got to look at those things and, and really strategize, get with some of your friends and family, break it down, talk to them about it. Sometimes that helps as well. So, it's, it's great to have multiple good candidates. We have several of those in Texas, so we totally understand that too. 

David Barton [00:26:10] And by the way, we've got a bunch of other primaries coming up in the next several weeks, especially as we get into May and June, Tim and I are going to be doing live coverage tonight on the three states are up tonight. He and I'll be doing coverage for the next several months on election nights for Victory News. So anybody who wants to see that coverage, you can go to Victory News and watch live tonight. And when your state comes up in future weeks, you can do it there as well. 

Rick Green [00:26:32] Yeah, so, Victory News tonight for election coverage and also Flashpoint. We'll all be commenting on Flashpoint tonight as well and then of course in the coming weeks more coverage. Make sure you vote though. Everybody go vote in your primary. Thanks so much for listening to The WallBuilders Show.