Rick Green [00:00:07] Welcome to the Intersection of Faith and Culture. It's The WallBuilders Show, taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective. Rick Green here with David Barton and Tim Barton. You can learn more about us at wallbuilders.com. And then you can listen to any radio programs you might have missed at wallbuilders.show. Interesting program today. We're actually going to have a, um, an officer from the Oklahoma Bureau of Narcotics. We've talked about this whole marijuana thing, getting legalized in states and the, the, crime that comes with it, all the problems that come with it. Today we're going to get some data and some information on what's happened in Oklahoma, just in having medical marijuana, not even having recreational marijuana. So, David, Tim, this one's going to be definitely an important show because there's states that are considering either going to medical marijuana or expanding to recreational marijuana. 

David Barton [00:00:55] Yeah, I was when I read this article and it really got my attention because certainly with what we do in the policy arena and working with legislators, this has been an issue that has been on our table for two decades. I mean, this is not a new issue. Marijuana use at a time when it was really being used in a widespread manner goes all the way back to the70's, but it was not legalized until much, much, much later, and so we've had enough data since that period of time to know what happens in the states. You know, Colorado first several years that they legalized it. Man, people did not want to go there to build construction because they couldn't get workers that weren't high most of the time. And the productivity was down. Their accents were up. Everything was, was bad. And so we had all, all these kinds of, you know, anecdotal and statistical studies on what happens and we've always called it kind of a gateway drug that it opens the door for so many things. And so when I was looking at what was happening with this, I was reminded of a teaching that Jesus gave back in Matthew 12, verses 43 and 44. And in this case I'm going to read what it says in what's called the message, which is a paraphrase of what the Bible, I mean this is not the doctrinal source but it's a great summary and it's a modern language and here's what it say, it says, "When a defiling evil spirit is expelled from someone, it drifts along through the desert looking for an oasis, some unsuspecting soul it can be devil. When it doesn't find anyone, it says I'll go back to my old haunt. On return, it finds the person spotlessly clean, but vacant. It then runs out and rounds up seven of their spirits more evil than itself and they all move in whooping it up. That person ends up far worse off than if they'd never gotten cleaned up in the first place." And so the summary is what happens is you let something bad in and it brings seven of his companions with it and you're worse off than you were. And that's pretty much what happened with the whole argument over legalizing marijuana. Hey, we're doing all this prosecution. We got all these people in jail. This is a low-level crime. It doesn't result in violence. And so they legalized it. And suddenly it brings in seven of his friends worse than it is. And there's so many bad things. And so, our Northern neighbors in Oklahoma, they're one of the ones that went to recreational marijuana. There's about 40 jurisdictions in and states that have marijuana use of some kind, about two dozen, are recreational. But Oklahoma did that, and boy, did they find out what kind of mess it brought with them, and that's gonna be an interesting interview. 

Tim Barton [00:03:29] Well, one of the things that we often talk about with legislators in general is what are the unintended consequences where there are a lot of people with really good hearts, that their ideas might seem like a really good fix but only in a very short term sometimes inside of a bubble, which is not reality. This is not going to work the way you think it is going to work. It's a little bit like the argument of we should take money from rich people and give it to the poor people which is a really short-term solution that is not going to work out well in the long run because, when you are taking from people that have been producers and you're rewarding people that have not produced and you are thinking, well now we're all equal and even. What happens when the people who haven't produced now are being rewarded for not producing? You're incentivizing and encouraging them to continue not producing. And then what are you doing to people that have really productive? You're actually encouraging and incentivizing them to not produce or in some cases like in California, to leave your state and to go to somewhere where they're not gonna be penalized and punished. And this is part of thinking downstream effects. What are the unintended consequences that might result from this? And this is where you have guys, you can go back to like a Thomas Sowell who was really good about this from an economic standpoint. He and Milton Freeman would talk a lot about this. And Thomas Sowll would talk about there's stage one thinking and there's stage two thinking and stage one, thinking it's only thinking of what is the... What is the immediate benefit that I will get right now? Will this gratify me? Will this make me happy? Well, then I should do it. If I get a paycheck and I wanna buy this really cool thing, well, then, I'm gonna go spend all my money on this. That's stage one thinking. Stage two goes, hey, wait a second, what happens if you need more money later in the month? What happens? Something goes wrong on your car and you have to have money to get your car fixed or you're in a house and the hot water heater goes out? Like, you can't spend all the money from your paycheck the instant you get a paycheck That's stage one thinking, stage two thinking is thinking down the road and being a little more strategic, having a little bit more critical thinking problem-solving in what you do. And, Dad, to your point even with some of this argument with marijuana there's been a lot of people that have been very much in a stage one thinking and sometimes because maybe we haven't allowed or distributed information that might help people think of what these unintended consequences are. Because sometimes people just don't know how to think through, well, what might be the consequence of this action? And that's where having some helpers sometimes can help point out, well, here's some things that might happen from that. And when you look at states like Oklahoma that's ventured into this marijuana, kind of medical marijuana initially, and just explored this. When you see what has happened, it's a little bit like looking at socialism and some of these nations around the world where people have tried socialism and every time it's been tried, there have been incredibly negative consequences. Well, guess what? That's the same thing that happens with marijuana. When people legalize marijuana, it is a little like inviting socialism into your nation. It doesn't produce good. It actually has so many negative consequences from it and many times unintended consequences. This is not what they were trying to accomplish, but here's what it has produced. And so, I am really excited to get into the interview today. We have read the article. We've seen some other interviews and there's such great information. I think a lot of people are just very ignorant of what some of these unintended consequences are, and that's why I think today is going to be very helpful for people. That as they are navigating in their state and maybe even in their own mind, in their perspective of worldview, what is the right or wrong answer, maybe on this issue of marijuana. Today's program, I think is going to give a lot of insight that could and should be very helpful for people to understand what are some of the consequences when a state legalizes marijuana. 

Rick Green [00:07:25] Yeah, cause you're right, Tim. I mean, a lot of times, even as individuals, we think, well, I just, you know, I don't want government to make that decision. I want individuals to be able to make that decision. But there are things that are so poisonous to the culture that we absolutely should say as a society, as a neighborhood, as a state, as a nation, whatever that particular government level is that, Hey, this is so bad, we don't want it in our community because of everything that you guys just said, the things that they come with it, the unintended consequences, the second level. All those things. So, Mark Woodward is going to be with us when we come back from the break. He's public information officer and legislative liaison for the Oklahoma Bureau of Narcotics. We'll get a little history of what happened in Oklahoma with this issue. Stay with us. You're listening to The WallBuildrers Show. 

Rick Green [00:09:11] Welcome back to the Intersection of Faith and Culture. Thanks for staying with us here on the WallBuilders Show. Mark Woodward is with us from Oklahoma, from the Bureau of Narcotics up there. Mark, thank you so much for coming on, man. 

Mark Woodward [00:09:21] It's good to be with you. Appreciate the invitation. 

Rick Green [00:09:24] Well, we're hoping that our listeners today can learn and hopefully avoid the same mistakes you guys are having to deal with in Oklahoma and frankly, a lot of states now that have seen the damage that marijuana can do, even just medical marijuana, but you guys got quite a story. I guess it's only been eight years. 

Mark Woodward [00:09:42] Yeah, it is. And it started out pretty harmless the first two years, '18 and '19. It was mostly local Oklahomans just trying to make a go of it. But during the pandemic, it became a perfect storm because we had people here in Oklahoma who advertised on Fujianese, Cantonese, Mandarin website saying come to Oklahoma, we're not locked down, cheap license, loosest regulation of any marijuana state. And they helped kind of pave the way for, for people in lockdown states to come to Oklahoma and continue to grow. And they were reaching out to a specific group, the Chinese, who they knew were kind of the backbone of black-market marijuana. It was already well established. But the problem is they're in lockdown California, trying to move product to the East coast. And so it was really that perfect storm that brought them to Oklahoma. And it was, it was that was about 2021 that they started really getting entrenched. And we went from about 2000 groves to 8,000 groves marijuana farms with just in about two and a half years. 

Rick Green [00:10:43] Is the, is the, just having the groves, you know, at that point, like every grove that gets at it statistically, you're going to have an increase in crime?

Mark Woodward [00:10:52] Well, it depends on who's behind it. I mean, obviously there is some crime associated with marijuana. Even the local ones trying to do it right. They would have their farms robbed, their dispensaries broken into, and they would steal product. They're not taking money or jewelry or things like that. They're stealing marijuana. But specifically with the groups out of China, this is organized crime. And we knew that they were operating out in California, but it hadn't been a problem for us until They started coming here and the people behind these farms, even though on the surface on the license, they would use a straw owner to look like a local resident who could pass the background because they had to have a license from us. And they would make sure that they had somebody who would pass. But meanwhile, that's just a straw owner. The real people are tied to organized crime out of China that controls probably 85% of the black-market marijuana in the United States. But it's far more than that. People need to understand this is not just OVN picking on some Chinese growers who are trying to do it right. These people are involved in homicides, kidnappings, extortion, labor trafficking, sex trafficking, all of which we have identified tied to these farms. That's tied back to organized crime from China, ranging from Los Angeles to California. And so those are the people that are trying get a foothold in Oklahoma we had identified and are still today shutting these farms down and working very complex cases against these people who, many of them aren't even here in Oklahoma, they're just operating these farms. And so, yes, there's a lot of crime and very violent crime that comes with these farms, then they hide behind a piece of paper that says I'm just a marijuana grower. 

Rick Green [00:12:30] What would you say to public servants, voters, anybody in other states that are considering allowing this in their state, thinking that they're going to get this great tax base or that it's just a freedom issue or whatever, what would your warning to them be to not experience what you guys are having to fight? 

Mark Woodward [00:12:51] Well, you got to I think I think the public doesn't always understand the people who are behind these groves. Yes, some of them are local people trying to do it right, but the majority of this is a multi-trillion-dollar worldwide business because it's just in here in the U.S. Over 40 states have legalized it. You don't have to hide it. It's an all-cash business and what's really frightening is it requires lots of land. And so, you see the Chinese that are stockpiling U. S. Currency by getting involved in black market marijuana and they're also buying large property, sections of property in states all across the United States. So those are concerning even outside the marijuana realm that people may not be aware of. They have absolutely been attached and identified as being tied to CCP. The Chinese Communist Party we've identified diplomats linked to very high-ranking officials from New York and Washington DC, linked back to Oklahoma farms. So again, I don't think people realize just how high up in the Chinese government a lot of these farms and the money laundering and the criminal elements are attached to these farms when they're considering bringing this to their state. They do need to understand what they're going to bring with it and that is a very dangerous criminal element that goes all the way to the top of the CCP. 

Rick Green [00:14:06] Man. Yeah. And, and, and I guess, you know, a lot of times, like you said, we just, we just don't know what's going on behind the scenes and, and the, the ripple effect. I remember, I think it was James Dobson did a study decades. I mean, literally, back in the eighties, I think where it was during the, during the Reagan administration, just showing what follows even, even gambling. Like there's just some of these things that the type of activity that then follows it and surrounds it, is just a lot a pain for the, for the community. Are you hearing that with the marijuana even at medical marijuana let alone at the recreational marijuana level that from your colleagues in other states the same thing? I mean is it's I'm assuming it's not just an Oklahoma problem I mean you guys talk.

Mark Woodward [00:14:50] No, other states, absolutely are seeing it. They're seeing the homicides, the robberies, the human trafficking, using a lot of these Chinese workers who are promised a job and they're forced to work in deplorable conditions. Same with the females who are now having to cater to a lot the males that are working and running these farms, the sex trafficking, the extortions, the murders. Then you got water theft, electrical theft that's impacting local people out in rural Oklahoma and other states. You've got rising tax, higher taxes, you've got higher property values and not in good way because they're paying four times what these properties are worth just so they can buy large amounts of land quickly. And, and so it's really hurt everybody. The good news is that we've identified what's going on. We now put every one of these people under a microscope when they renew their license every year. And now we've gone from about 8,400 farms to today, about 1,400. We flipped the script and that's the good news. It's no longer the wild west of weed in Oklahoma and then the late-night talk show joke about Oklahoma is we saw three years ago today. The message is world worldwide. Don't go to Oklahoma. They're going to put you under a microscope and you're going to go to jail. So, we're seeing a lot of these farms shutting down. We've seen a lot these people going to other States. And so that, that that's the good news is we're seeing some light at the end of this tunnel, but they're going to other states, other states absolutely need to be aware. We've heard about increases in Minnesota. We've had about increases and Michigan and Maine where a lot these Chinese groves are starting to just pop up overnight and many of those are people who left there and pulled up their stakes in Oklahoma and went elsewhere. And people need to understand they're very dangerous people tied to some incredibly dangerous people. 

Rick Green [00:16:26] And it sounds like though that you've figured out a good formula for, like you said, reducing the activity by enforcing the law everywhere that you can and that hopefully these other states can learn the same thing. 

Mark Woodward [00:16:38] Yeah, our agency is a full-time 24-7 drug enforcement on the state level. So, we've got agents that for 50 years have been working in criminal investigations on drug traffickers. And so, once we identified what they're doing, we've been able to shut them down. And number two, we bring them in, make them sit across the table. We walk them through their paperwork and it takes us about 10 minutes to figure out this person's a straw owner, this is 100% fraud and there's organized crime behind this application and we immediately deny renewing. And so, they have no choice but to get out of business. And so really the last three and a half years, we've shut down nearly 7,000 farms by our agency and our enforcement teams. And that's the good news. We're sending a message that, you know, the days of just passing a background and paying a small fee and here's your license are over. And so, we would encourage other states to be very vigilant when they screen and vet these people who are applying for a license in their state of who's truly behind that farm. 

Rick Green [00:17:35] Yeah. Yeah. Got it. Well, Mark, thank you very much for spending time with us today. I know, you know, there's other states considering either going, you know, to medical marijuana or even increase into recreational marijuana. And, and the more we can see on, unfortunately, the negative impact on you guys and other states that have, that have already done it. It's like founders talked about, you know, the, the individual states being sort of laboratories of freedom where you test some things out, but man when you see the bad stuff you go oh, we don't want to make that mistake like they did! So thank you for sharing. And but I but I'm encouraged that you guys found a way to combat it and at least minimize the negative effect. So, man really appreciate you sharing with us today. 

Mark Woodward [00:18:13] You bet. Glad to do it. Thank you for having me on. 

Rick Green [00:18:15] You bet. Stay with us, folks. We'll be right back with David and Tim Barton. 

Rick Green [00:19:25] Welcome back to the WallBuilders Show. Thanks for staying with us. Thanks to Mark Woodward for joining us. You know, as three Texans, we just learned from an Oklahoman. I think that's okay. I think it's not, you know, we should not rule out our fellow Americans just because they're not Texans. No, no, this is great because a lot of people are not sure what to think about this issue. They're thinking, oh, it's just a freedom thing. And they don't think about these unintended consequences. That's why we wanted to have this program today. 

Tim Barton [00:19:51] Well, Rick, I think saying we're learning from Oklahoma is absolutely true on this one, but it's a little bit like the Big Brother telling his little brother. Hey, go jump off that bridge. See what happens, right? This is watching your sibling do something dumb and being like, I knew that was a bad idea. I knew we shouldn't have done that. Yeah. Right? Like that, that's what really kind of happened in this. But Dad, we talked about this a lot, but before we even were able to get Mark on for this interview. We have known about some of these unintended consequences at our legislative conference. We've actually had sessions. On some of the marijuana related issues that most Americans are not aware of. And like we're seeing so much in the culture around us. We're seen with things happening really in Minnesota like ICE. It's a super easy example. There is such a campaign propaganda war going on for information. And oftentimes the side that is having far more negative consequences, they're winning the propaganda war which I think is really part of what's happened with this marijuana stuff. But I, I didn't realize the extent of China's involvement. So, I'd read this article that led us to want to interview Mark in the first place to see that it was crazy that you have a foreign nation that is coming in, buying up assets, starting all these farms illegally. Right, without the right permits, doing all kinds of things that are destructive to the land, destructive to the communities, increasing violent crime, et cetera, and from a foreign nation that is hostile to us. And somehow people are still naive enough to think that, well, no, this is just about freedom of choice. This is just about, if a state wants to do this, we should let them do this. Dad, it was crazy seeing some of these, these data points, but also hearing Mark give a breakdown. It is really telling. Just judging a tree by the fruits, how much negative fruit is on this marijuana tree.

David Barton [00:21:46] I tell you, I was, as he was going through stuff, I was just making notes like crazy. And it turned out that the intro we had was perfect for this reading out of Matthew 12, where Jesus says you'll bring back seven times worse. I'll point out that Mark said that once they got all the organized foreign international crime out of the state, they're down to only one seventh of what it had been. They had 8,400 farms and now they got 1,400, which is a decrease of sevenfold. So, it literally was a sevenfold increase. And then I was writing down the things he said that came in with it, and he had organized crime, organized sex trafficking, the black market, increased homicides, increased robberies, increased kidnapping, and now labor trafficking. Those are seven bad fruits that weren't there prior to that, at least at this level. So, it literally, in this case, happened to be exactly seven times worse things that happened. But I mean, this is really significant stuff, and I think it's really interesting. That simply by doing the enforcement thing, they're able to uncover 7,000 marijuana farms that are owned, you know, Oklahomans may be the front on that, but they're owned by all these organizations and criminal organizations overseas. Which goes to the thing, look, there's 24 states that have what Oklahoma's doing. There's 40 states that marijuana usage overall legalized in some capacity. 24 like Oklahoma, and most of them are saying, hey, this is not a big deal. If they would dig into it, they might find that they could significantly, and by the way, I'll point out that one of the things I saw even last week was the murder rate last year is the biggest decline on record in the history of the United States and the decrease in murder rate. And that's simply because you have an attorney general and others that are enforcing the law, they're taking people off the streets, illegal immigrants and others, that have committed murder and simply by enforcing a law, you've driven this down. Well, by turning your back on marijuana usage and other states, you're not taking these guys off the street. You're not takin' the organized crime out. You're now takin the organized sex trafficking out. And so, you're fighting that, not realizing that you've let it come in with this marijuana usage. And so, among all these unintended consequences, you've also got this, what he called that forced labor trafficking. You've got the cartels bringing in forced labor and who knows whether that slave labor from China or from across the border or anything else. But you have this forced labor that's going on in the state as well. And I think what they found in Oklahoma is such an excellent, compelling example. I hope every other state relooks at what they're doing with marijuana and start doing a deep dive on those that are behind those farms. And there's just so many things that can be turned around with this one issue, going back and getting it fixed. 

Rick Green [00:24:32] And guys, I was trying to remember who it was that came to our legislator’s conference. Wow, seems like it's five or six years ago on this subject, but there's really good data just for the negative. Of course, our program today was mostly about who's running it and the crime that comes with the actual crop growing, but just the negative data on usage and what it does. And David, of course, you alluded to this at the beginning of the program, but just a warning to all the folks out there listening, that if you, if you haven't heard one of those talks or followed one of those websites, the data is absolutely overwhelming, not only about it being the gateway drug, but just the fact that it just makes you dumb and it just, it just takes you out of the fight. It keeps you from being the most effective person you can be for the Lord and for the kingdom. So just a, just a warning in general about it, I think is warranted as well. 

Tim Barton [00:25:22] And Rick, to your point, it was somebody from SAM, which is Smart Approaches to Marijuana. And you can, I think their website is learn about SAM or learn more about SAM, something like that. But it was, yeah, Smart Approach to Marihuana. We had somebody come from their organization and they had the data in the states that had allowed medical marijuana or legalized marijuana and these unintended consequences that had followed and not dissimilar to what happened in Oklahoma, they were already identifying the problem is not enough people knew about it. And that's why in ignorance; a lot of people voted for an idea that had incredibly negative consequences. 

David Barton [00:26:04] Hey guys, by the way, good news, 331. 

Tim Barton [00:26:10] Yay! It's almost Christmas time! We're getting so close. 

Rick Green [00:26:12] Christmas is almost here, folks. I mean, it's just right around the corner. 331 days. So says David Barton. And if you could just see, because we're still doing our recording remotely since we're all three part of God's frozen people now in Texas with the rest of the frozen people in Texas. I can see on camera that David's got Christmas trees up in his recording studio. So yes, as far as David Bartons concerned, Christmas it's not just right around the corner, it's already here. Thanks for listening to the WallBuilders Show. 

Smart Approaches to Marijuana

https://learnaboutsam.org/