Rick Green [00:00:07] Welcome to the intersection of faith and culture. Thanks for joining us today on the wall builder show. Rick Green here with David Barton and Tim Barton and Carol Swain will be back with us today. If you missed yesterday, Dr. Carol Swain, amazing lady. We love her. She's been doing stuff with us here at WallBuilders for years and years. And yesterday she came on, but we didn't have time to finish the interview. So, we're going to get the conclusion of that today. But if you missed, yesterday, wallbuilders.show. Very easy. Go right there. WallBuilders.show and you can click on yesterday's program and get caught up. That doesn't prevent you from finishing today's program first. You can listen out of order. Perfectly fine. I'm not sure if we do anything in order around here, guys. We're supposed to, right? Well, maybe. 

David Barton [00:00:43] Yeah, well, there's a Bible verse that says to do everything decently and in order is what the Bible says. So, don't say we, we, don't do that because that would be, you know, violating scriptures. So, we don't go. Well, don't want to go there. 

Rick Green [00:00:56] I know, I know what's going through the brains of some of our listeners that I know they're thinking decently in an order where you still allow Rick to come on the program, so you already messed up on the decent part, no. All right. So, Carol will be back with us a little later, but let's kind of catch people up a little bit. We're, we were talking about essentially the whole, the same old debate about color of skin versus content of character and, and, just essentially racism and the fact that maybe we're turning the corner. Yesterday, we started talking about the redistricting. And potentially could have a Supreme Court decision that kind of puts a nail in that coffin. It says no longer are you gonna draw lines based on race. So, on one hand, we're turning the corner, but on the other hand, man, we've got a rise of antisemitism and just some bad stuff on both the right and the left. And so, it's important for us to have this topic today. 

David Barton [00:01:43] You know, one of the things that they came out is literally as she talked about, and she was really a prophet of this before it was even really known. She was talking about this decades ago that you do redistricting based not on color of skin, but on the party. And if you do that, you're actually gonna end up probably with more diverse representation than you do trying to do skin-wise. And if I take you back real quick into just the Civil War, when the Civil war was over and the Southern States, it was Republicans took over in the Southern states. And it was just Republicans drawing the lines. That's when you had more than a thousand blacks elected to office in that Reconstruction era. And they weren't making districts for blacks, they were making districts for Republicans, but at that point in time, blacks were Republicans. And so, they got a thorough Republican legislature throughout the entire South, but it was not because they were drawing districts for blacks. It was because they were drawing district for Republicans. And that's the point that Carrol's been making all along. 

Tim Barton [00:02:41] Well, and guys, this is one of the things too, that is so important. I feel like especially in the polarized world we live in, that we are seeing America become more divided in so many ways. And George Washington cautioned that you got to make sure you don't have a love of party over the love of principle, because if we're just saying, hey, we care about our party. And if that is what we are promoting, then ultimately, we will lose compromise and sacrifice our principles. When, the reason that we are aligned with a party is because of the principles. And if the party stops promoting those principles, then we're going to go a different direction. And so, for us as individuals, because we are pro God and pro-family and prolife and pro-gun and write some of these basic inalienable rights. Well, right now the political party aligning the closest to that is the Republican party and on top of the fact that it is generally easier to help redirect a party in the right direction and start a brand-new party. That's been very difficult and has been much harder to do than people getting involved in the local level. And so, whether it's a precinct chair or the county chair or all the way up to state, you can influence those state parties far more than the challenge of starting a new party, but back to the idea that George Washington's advice was we have to make sure it is a principle that we are standing behind and not just the party. And that was one of the things that I think Carol kind of addressed a little bit in yesterday's conversation. But I am curious today to see where else we might go in this conversation with Carol. 

Rick Green [00:04:22] Well, let's find out. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back with Dr. Carol Swain. You're listening to The WallBuilders Show. 

Rick Green [00:05:32] Welcome back to the WallBuilders show. Thanks for staying with us. We're going to jump right back into our interview with Dr. Carol Swain. First half of it was yesterday. You can get that at wallbuilders.show. Here's Dr. Carol Swain. What changed for you to get over being shy and starting to make public appearances and do all that you've done? 

Dr. Carol Swain [00:05:49] You know something, this is a true story is I had my Christian conversion experience in the late 1990s. And I've got to rebaptize and like people grow up in the South. I guess, it's not unusual to be baptized more than once, but sometimes when you get down there and they dip you, you don't know what it's all about. You don't, you certainly don't love Christ. I got baptized in 19, no, I believe it was 2000. I got rebaptized because I knew what it meant to follow Christ. And the Lord impressed on my mind that He had given me a message bigger than me and that I should focus on the message. And I knew that when I was afraid, I was just so, I mean, I was in New Jersey and I had a Southern accent and I come from poverty and I was ashamed of my voice and I didn't go to high school. And so sometimes I make grammatical mistakes. I was so afraid I'd make a mistake that that's what kept me silent, just fear. And God took it away just like that. And all of a sudden, I didn't have to have notes that I could actually stand in front of a crowd, speak extemporaneously. And for a while I used to write out everything I was going to say. And the Holy Spirit really impressed on my mind that I shouldn't do that. And I do have some speeches that I write out, like with the Cambridge Union debate and over the years I have some that are written out, but mostly I do a lot of extemporaneous speaking because that way I can go with the audience. And I'm constantly reading the audience and, and I just, God has enabled me to do that but it was all, it was all a work of God. The fact that I, it's just amazing to me.

Rick Green [00:07:46] I do a lot of communication training with young people and when they're initially afraid and full of that fear of getting up in front of a group or whatever, you know, when you really question and you dig down, it's usually our pride because we don't want to be embarrassed by not knowing what to say or like you said, messing something up or whatever. And that conversion experience and God telling you, I've got a message I want you to speak, gets it outside of ourselves. So now we're doing it for Him and it's not about us. And that's it sounds like that's. That's what happened to you. And He's used you in such a mighty way ever since. I can't wait to have you come talk to the kids of the Patriot Institute. We got to get that on the calendar, at least pipe you in, cause they would love to hear from you. It's just so powerful. We're so short on time. I've got to, get your thoughts on how to respond to this, new crop of, I don't, I don't know nice ways to say it. Like I, I'm a very pro free speech guy, but if it's not government stop it, I think part of free speech is to denounce poison and not platform it and not meaning like not meaning like a social media platform I mean like us inviting a person in that is so poisonous that they're leading people astray 

Dr. Carol Swain [00:08:53] Well, you know, in the book, I was attacked for publishing. In fact, my editor had to go to the UK to argue that Cambridge University was not endorsing white supremacy if they published my book. And I argued in that book that what you don't know can hurt you. And so, I felt it was important to listen to what they were saying. And the ideas they had, they were legitimate to address those issues. And there were people making cogent arguments back then. And affirmative action was a factor in a lot of the people. There were two Jewish professors that were interviewed. I commissioned interviews of 10 of the leading white rights, white nationalist leaders at that time. Two of them were Jewish. And the two Jewish professors, you know, they had PhDs. They were probably brilliant. One was teaching, you now, at a, I think one of the city colleges in New York and another one at a community college. And Jared Taylor, who is an older gentleman now, I mean, older my age, he was one of people I interviewed. And he so impressed me because I knew if I were a white male from Appalachia, I would be persuaded by Jared. And that's why I knew that I was onto something big. Jared has educated at Yale, London School of Economics, and he argues that multiculturalism never works. And Robert Putnam at Harvard actually did a study, accidentally he did it, that showed countries that are homogenous or even states, they tend to do better than those that have a lot of diversity. Well, with Jared Taylor, He was a gentleman type of, called himself a white racialist. His ideas of being articulated, but in a gutter sort of way. Garrett Taylor, I can never imagine him using a racial epithet. Always been respectful to me. I invited him and Tim Wise, a civil rights activist, to debate at Vanderbilt. And so these people now that have been unleashed, that are pure races. I think the question should be, as you say, why are they being platformed? And I noticed on social media that some people that were conservative that I have always respected are crossing the line, they're coming up really close. And this attack on Jews, the anti-Semitism, the same people that hate Jews, hate blacks. And if they, if violence begins, begins to take place in this country, they're not going to say, oh, you know this is a good black person and this is a good Jew, you know, they're going to go after everyone. And I think that we need to realize that we're dealing with something very dangerous and it should, I think the president shouldn't condemn it, that we, our movement doesn't need it. And people need to be held accountable. 

Rick Green [00:12:00] How do, how do, do you think that we should then, you know, invite them into debates?

Dr. Carol Swain [00:12:07] You know, who I would like to see interviewed and, you know, like, if, if you have an interest, I'll sit beside you when you do it. But, uh, Jared Taylor, who started the American Renaissance. And what fascinated me was that his foundation is called the New Century Foundation. His organization was called American Renaissance, that there were people that were involved in things that by the name of the organization, you didn't know what they were about. He called himself a racialist. And, um... And he mocked the white progressives that push, you know, all of this stuff that turns out to be divisive, but they had that little white parties. And, you know, they don't know any black people, a limousine ripples, you heard that expression?

Rick Green [00:12:52] Oh, yeah. 

Dr. Carol Swain [00:12:52] I think that Jared Taylor, who is in his seventies has a lot to offer because he was in, in the, he was at the ground roots of all of this. He was never that extreme, but he could shed some light on it. 

Rick Green [00:13:08] Well, let's look for some opportunities to do that, Carol, because I think the conversations need to take place, but I want to be careful who we. 

Dr. Carol Swain [00:13:16] I would much rather platform Jared Taylor than Nick. Uh, and I think that's what I'm thinking his name is Fuentes. Uh, 

Rick Green [00:13:24] I try not to be as rude as I'll my nature is I just call him the Nazi twerp is that that's probably not nice is it I probably should 

Dr. Carol Swain [00:13:31] Probably should, I don't, I don't understand the platform of the platforming of him, but I also see on social media, people just posting all kinds of racist things and other people cheering them on, things that if you tried that a few years ago, you would be, you know, just blasted. 

Rick Green [00:13:50] Exactly, especially in the tone and the language and the just hey, it's just that's to me It's like I just feel like there's a line you cross where it's like you should be, in fact Newt Gingrich had a good Article a couple weeks ago called, you know, we need to bring back the Greek ostracize I didn't say that right ostracization, ostracizing to where you  literally say you've just gone too far. We're not going to invite you into polite conversation. We're gonna we're not gonna use the government to silence you but we're not gonna

Dr. Carol Swain [00:14:16] Stigma used to be good and in fact when you bring that back also bring back those big ugly food stamps, get rid of the debit cards. No one ever wanted to be seen with the big ugly foods stamps Then you would have control costs for the programs 

Rick Green [00:14:31] Smart, that's so good. We gotta do this again, I hate running out of time. You are a national treasure. Dr. Carol Swain, thank you so much for spending time with me today. 

Dr. Carol Swain [00:14:40] Thank you. 

Rick Green [00:14:41] Stay with us, folks. We'll be right back with David and Tim Barton 

Rick Green [00:15:50] Welcome back to the WallBuilders Show. Thanks again to Dr. Carol Swain. And again, if you join us kind of in the middle of the program today and you missed yesterday, she was with us yesterday as well, and you can get that at our website, wallbuilders.show. That's wallbuilder.show and then of course our main website, wallbuilders.com for everything else WallBuilders. All right guys. So great to have a Carol with us. And of course, you know, like she was saying, she's written several books on these different subjects, but wow, you said it at the beginning of the program, David, you, you knew she was way ahead of the game on this and the fact that now we have that research and her expertise, and then starting to look for people that we can have these discussions with, it's definitely not a subject. We can't make the mistake I made for the last few years of kind of not ignoring it, but just not recognizing that it was such a problem. 

David Barton [00:16:33] Yeah. And just by the way, she made a couple of comments along the way that I think are just kind of blowing up worth blowing up for a bit. But she says you got to speak out against this stuff. And she's right. And I'm thinking the Song of Solomon 8:13 where it says your friends listen to your voice, so speak. I mean, we do have a responsibility to speak. We can't say well, that's for the experts to do or I'm not an expert. Look, you got a sphere of influence. There are people that listen to you people that want to know your input that wants your perspective. That's how you have conversations. And so that's the kind of thing, we've got to speak out against antisemitism, against racism, we can't just shake our heads and say, oh, that's really bad. We got to say something about this kind of stuff. 

Tim Barton [00:17:12] And dad, one of the things too that we know just from pastors and I would say it's probably true for most individuals, but we know one of the challenges for pastors speaking out on these issues is in many situations, the pastors that would largely have the right perspective. Like if it came to the issue of life or marriage or some basic things, there are more pastors that believe in the traditional biblical perspective on this and that don't speak out. And one of reasons they don't speak out is they don't feel like they're an expert on the issue. And so, this is the other thing I would encourage, is not only today is it easier to find good information on these issues than ever before, in the sense of you can get online and you can do some basic searches and find some really good answers and information. Now, obviously you're gonna find some contrast to that too, you're going to find some ridiculous things, but the other things that there's an advantage in our current era that wasn't there previously, is you also can get online and find people that are really good on this topic and you can share their video on your social media feed. So there are ways that you can share your voice or share your thoughts, even sometimes through somebody else's voice that has said this really well and really concisely, but dad, I think to your point, that the bigger challenge is not to be the expert on the issue, but it's actually to do something on the issues or the topic. So again, whether that's sharing somebody else video or doing a quick little look up and getting a couple bullet points and just sharing one or two thoughts, it does make a difference that we start speaking into some of the conversations happening in culture right now. 

David Barton [00:18:44] And Rick, going back to what you said, one of the comments you made was, part of free speech is to denounce poison. And Tim, going just to what said, look, I don't have to be an expert on arsenic to tell you that it's a bad deal if you take arsenic. I don't have to know the molecular structure of gasoline to tell don't drink gasoline. It's not healthy for you. I don't have to the expert on that. All I gotta do is warn you against it and say this is really bad stuff. You don't wanna get into this. 

Tim Barton [00:19:10] Well, Dad, and a thought on that, you don't have to know what the chemical breakdown is in your body of what it does to your body. You can go, hey, if you drink this, it kills you, right? So, you do have to something about it. And I'm saying that in the sense of, you don't to know all of the details of socialism or Marxism. You don't need to have the academic explanation of it, but you do need to know, hey nowhere in the history of the world has Marxism or socialism or even communism been implemented where it didn't bring. Right, economic depressions, where it didn't bring death and destruction. And we don't want that here. Of course, the pushback is going to be, well, we wouldn't do that kind of socialism, we're going to do a new kind. And then you just ask some very simple questions. Well, how is your socialism different than what has ever been tried before in all these places? And I'm saying it only to add a little context. You don't have to be the expert, but you do need to know what it produces. And that would be the reason you're speaking to it because you know, it produces death, destruction. The Bible says the thief, the devil comes only to steal, to kill, and to destroy. Interestingly enough, what communism, socialism, and Marxism does, many reasons we should oppose it, but you don't have to be the expert. You do need to understand what it produces. And that's why we want to oppose it very simply. 

David Barton [00:20:25] Yeah, and at the point of not being the expert, what you do have to do is speak out what you just mentioned. I'm thinking of Ezekiel 3, where God told Ezekiel, look, if you don't say something about this, I'm gonna hold you responsible for what happens to them. Now, if to say something and they choose to do it wrong, then you're off the hook. But if you do not say anything and they, do it wrong, you're the one that's on the hook, and that's back to that expert thing. You don't have to be an expert on it. You just have to say something about it, and I was really struck with how shy Carol said she was, and her shyness at the beginning, she wouldn't talk, and, you know, she had a southern accent, and etc. And she got over her shyness, and look at what a difference it made. She'd become a very important voice. And I was just kind of Googling some stuff going through, but I found all these Bible verses talking about, hey, you can't let shyness keep you from talking. You can't things dissuade you in Jeremiah 17, and Proverbs 3, and Psalm 71, and 27 and Hebrews 3 and 1st Timothy 1 and all these verses are behind us, we need to start saying something. And Tim, as you said, no nation has ever survived socialism to be a prosperous and free nation. No nation has every survived going against the Jews and against Israel and been an independent prosperous nation after they do so. I mean, that's another historical lesson that's out there. And so, there's gotta be people who start talking out about this kind of stuff. 

Tim Barton [00:21:47] Well, one thing too, along these lines’ guys, and Dad, obviously with some of what you're saying, I mean, I’m already hearing some of the younger generation who would argue some of nuance, well, the Babylonians, they survived pretty well after they conquered Israel, blah, blah blah, right? So not that there's not some, some nuance in detail surrounding some of this. However, I think one of the things that is worth addressing, Rick, as you and Carol will finish in the conversation. And Carol was saying, hey, maybe let's, you and me get together, let's have a conversation with somebody. One of the things I do think it's worth kind of getting into a little bit is, you know, as Carol suggesting, maybe there's somebody we should talk to and it's a 70-year-old. Now I'm saying this as the younger person on the show, the millennial, and even though I'm the millennial, I am still older than most of the world is right now. Recognizing that where the rising generation is coming, as good as it is to have conversations with 70-year-olds and there's nothing wrong with that, there's a lot of wisdom and maybe even some healthy debate and exchange is happening. Rick, you were kind of correct in some of your assessment with Nick Fuentes, but I think it's worth acknowledging it, especially for every parent and grandparent out there. If you don't know who Nick Fuentes is, and you're probably haven't been paying a lot of attention on some of the social media platforms because he's been on with Tucker Carlson, Pierce Morgan and Steven Crowder and kind of, you can go down a list. Of people now that have had conversations and platformed him. And he's known as having a lot of really outrageous views. And yet when you look at his following, even though there's been some information released and a lot his millions of followers are actually bots or people kind of overseas influence, he still has a couple million that are US followers. And even maybe similar with Candace Owens. Candace Owens, we can look at some of what she's doing now and go, man, I think she's drinking crazy Kool-Aid. And, and even though that might be correct statements, there's a reason that so many people are following them. And I think one of the things that we have to navigate going forward is there is a rising generation that, that feels very disenfranchised from a lot of the America that all of us grew up in, obviously in different eras. But the idea, we've talked about it before on the program. That the median household income is $88,000 and the average price of a home went from $250,000 to $450,000 in like the last decade and there are young people growing up where they have, they're learning how much the government has been dishonest to them and lying to them. And so, when you have someone like a Nick Fuentes who has crazy views on a lot of issues but he's saying some things that are true and it resonates with young people then he's able to draw them in over like Candace Owens, where she's, I'm just asking questions. I don't know, but I know, you know? She's saying these things. You're like, what are you even talking about? But because there's a lot of distrust, because there was a lot of frustration, there's lot of issues. They are able to play into this and they're maximizing their own social media accounts and arguably they're profiting like Candice Owens profiting off Charlie Kirk's murder and being like true crime investigator drama, whatever else. But for every parent and grandparent out there, you just have to know that the kids, your grandkids in this rising generation, they are asking a lot more questions than previous generations asked about what we would consider some pretty basic fundamentals and truth because when we have now gone through several decades of telling kids there is no truth, truth is subjective, there is not God, your life is your own, right? A woman's body, her choice, right, with this whole abortion debate issue. We have so muddied the waters that we have made our kids and grandkids a lot easier targets for voices like a Nick Fuentes and Candice Owens. And I'm saying this just to caution, as much as us as grown adults who think differently might want to dismiss them, the rising generation will not be as dismissive of them. And so, we wanna make sure that we can have thoughtful discussions, conversations, and explanations for some of what's going on. To help make sure that our kids and grandkids aren't being pulled aside into craziness and nonsense. 

Rick Green [00:26:01] Yeah. And it's, it's going to have to be an ongoing conversation because there are voices out there that, like you said, Tim, I mean, they have millions of followers. Fuentes is one of those, I mean obviously Candice Owens, like, you know, supposedly number one podcast and she's just, in my opinion spewing just craziness. And so, yeah, it, it it's gonna be really important. And, we have, we have a duty to, to influence the diet of information, with, with those that are in our sphere, like David said earlier, you, know, your friends listen, so speak. And so, we absolutely can't ignore these subjects and we'll be talking about them a lot more in the future. We sure appreciate you listening today. Again, it was a two-part program, so visit our website at WallBuilders.show to get yesterday's program and to share both yesterday's and today's. You've been listening to The WallBuilders Show.