Rick Green [00:00:07] Welcome to the intersection of Faith and Culture. It's the WallBuilders Show. Thanks for joining us on this Monday. Great to have you with us. You can learn more about us at our website, wallbuilders.com and wallbuilders.show. WallBuilders.com, of course, our main website, and that's the place to go right now. Last minute Christmas shopping. I know the rest of you probably already have all of your Christmas shopping done. I haven't even started, so I need to get on the WallBuilders site today. It's not too late. You know, it's down to the wire, though. So, you need to hurry. Wallbuilders.com, lots of great swag, cool stuff, new coffee mug, amazing looking coffee mug for the 250th, shirts, you know, books. I mean, you name it. All kinds of give the gift of freedom. Let's advertise freedom this year in 2026. So, check that out at wallbuilders.com and then wallbuilders.show for our radio program. And in fact, when you go to wallbuilders.show, you'll see some of the shows in the last couple of weeks. And last week, we mentioned this this religious liberty commission that President Trump put together. A lot of our friends are on that commission. David, you got to testify. You talked a little bit about it last week, but today's program, we're gonna zero a little bit more on that. So, some people might have missed that. Catch us up on what the commission is and what your testimony was all about last week. 

David Barton [00:01:12] Well, before I do that, I got a question for you. That coffee mug you're talking about, since I'm not old enough to drink coffee, what I would do with a mug like that. You got any suggestions? 

Rick Green [00:01:21] Oh, hot chocolate. Hot chocolate. 

[00:01:23] There you go. All right. I can do that. That's easy. That's perfect. That's a good choice. Chocolate. Yeah. Okay. 

[00:01:28] Or just water. Yeah, you know just the mug looks cool. You'll just you'll enjoy.... 

David Barton [00:01:31] The mug is indeed super cool. It is an awesome looking mug. Okay, so your question on the Religious Liberty Commission, last Wednesday or so, the Religious Liberty Commission, which is now being run through the Justice Department, Trump set up this Religious Liberty Commission to investigate what is the status of religious liberty in America? It certainly was under attack during the Biden administration, and it's been under attack in education, been under attack in the workplace, been under attack in the military, et cetera. So they have so far held four hearings across the country. It's kind of a moving panel. It goes to different areas and takes hearings and they've covered education in in some of the early hearings. This time they were covering military. What's happening in the military, religious freedom kind of stuff issues there, where is religious expression being squelched or stopped or opposed within the military. And so, once they get all this together and they have it all documented, they'll go back to the president with their recommendations. And I think it's an extremely high bet that whatever they recommend in this report, he's gonna take and do because they're not going to recommend something that is that is strange and different and pushing the bounds of the Constitution. They're just gonna go back to say let's do what the Constitution permits and here's what we did for all these decades, generations, even centuries, and in the last 10 to 15 years has come under attack. Let's go back to being constitutional. So, I think there's a really high probability That a lot of the stuff that's being testified about will get reversed. And already, quite frankly, Trump's already reversed a whole lot of the hostility that was there. So, this is really now kind of documenting all the stuff that was there so that we don't have to go through this again in the future. Although we all know that if you get a bad leader in there that hates religion, hates God, they're gonna do what they can to set that aside. Nonetheless, we will have some really strong findings. So last Wednesday, the way this worked, they have various panels that testify. There were officers who testified what happened to them with their religious liberty, there were SEALs who testified, how that they were not allowed to have a religious exemption on the COVID vaccine, all this other stuff that was and by the way, I think there were twenty-four thousand military personnel that requested m a religious exemption, and only four were granted a religious exemption, which is like nothing. So, they just said, we don't care what your religion says, we want you to take the vaccine. Well, you can't do that. Supreme Court's ruled in that way too many times. Nonetheless, that was hostility. So, in these various panels, I was the first panel, and I kind of set the stage on here's the history of the military, here's how religion was used within the military, here's how it was accommodated. And then they had other panels. And one of the panels included a guy named Kenny Vaughn, and the panels were usually two people. I had one by myself, and then everybody else, there was two people on each panel, and they would give their story, their testimony, and then the commissioners would ask them questions about it. So, Within that framework, one of the panels included a guy named Kenny Vaughn. And I had heard about the stuff he was involved with, but I didn't know who he was. I didn't know the name involved. But he had a really cool story testimony. So, I'm going to kind of give the background, leading up to what he talked about and leading up to the topic we're going to cover today. But back in the early 90s, he was a competitor in the sport of long jump water skiing. Now, long jump water skiing, you're going really fast. You hit that ramp, you go, and if you don't land just right, you're going to tumble and you're going to break things. And he did on a whole bunch of occasions. Had a lot of really bad wrecks and injuries. And as a result, just psychologically, he became terrified of jumping. So, he stopped all the competitive competition. He was really, really good. But he would get in the air and think, man, if I don't land just right, I'm going to break this again or whatever. And so, what happened was his girlfriend started writing scriptures on the handle of his ski jump rope, what he would hold on to. And so, as he would grab that and look at it, there were scriptures there, and one of the scriptures she gave him, he said this gave him a lot of courage. And he went back to being competitive again, ended up winning the national championship. But one of the scriptures was Joshua 1:9. And this is what it said "Have I not commanded you to be strong and courageous? Do not be afraid. Do not be discouraged. For the Lord your God is with you wherever you go." And he said that Bible verse. That she'd put on his ski jump had just totally changed him. And so, he created a dog tag for himself that he wore each time he jumped. He would have that verse with him. And so in in nineteen-ninety-six, he after five years off, he came back, competed, won the national championship. But then this dog tag thing got around and military folks started saying, hey, we want that. That's a verse we want. We want to wear that with us where we're going. And so, he created an organization called Shields of Strength. And so, it really became popular and back in 2003, there was a guy killed in Iraq. His name was Captain Russell Ripto. And when he was killed and brought back to Arlington Cemetery for burial, George W. Bush, President George W. Bush, actually did part of the service there. And in doing that service, he talked about the dog tag that that Captain Ripto was wearing and it was Joshua one nine. It was one of these shields of strength dog tags. And so, when he did that nationally, man, military people started jumping all over it, started buying it, millions were sold. And so, he's done about four million dog tags with Joshua 1:9 on it and millions of other with other verses. And so, then it became popular with firefighters and with law enforcement and anybody who's going into danger, even British the British troops started buying them and using them in the British military as well. But then in it started back with the Obama administration. They said, hey, this is inappropriate. You can't be having Bible verses with the military guys. And so, they started trying to shut them down. And finally, in in 2020, the Department of Defense ordered it to be stopped because you can't have scriptures in use with military guys. And so, at that point in time, First Liberty got involved. Kelly Shackleford, our friend over there and all their great attorneys, they got involved, and after five years, they have now made a settlement. The Trump administration said, we’re not doing this, we're gonna settle this, we're not gonna go to court over this, it needs to be ended. And so, they've now reached a settlement, and so he's back to producing these dog tags for the military. So that was one of the testimonies about the hostility that had come up in previous administrations that that now is being reversed by Trump. But Erin Smith is one of the great attorneys over at First Liberty, and she was part of helping reach that settlement, so she's got good news on how this all worked, how it worked out, and really what came out of it as a result. 

Rick Green [00:08:18] You know, it's also a good reminder that's you know, some of these even this one in this case it finally led to a settlement. They actually didn't have to get it a judicial decision, but it still took a long time. It takes years to do these things. It's one reason to support First Liberty and Liberty Council and these other groups out there because man, they need these teams on the ground that can stay in the fight and a lot of times the left, man, they are so well funded that you know, we give not give up, but we run out of funds sometimes in some of those fights. And so, this is just another great victory that that took time to get there. But man, well this is gonna be exciting to hear. 

David Barton [00:08:49] Rick, j just based on what you were saying, somebody made a comment, and it may have been one of us in the last week or so made the comment that the process is the punishment. And I'd never really thought about that, but that really is true. You know, how much money did he have to spend with attorneys to get to this point? And you say, well, why would there be a settlement? Why not just say you can go back to doing it with no penalty? Because it cost him so many hundreds of thousands of dollars simply to stand for the first amendment and he won anyway. And I had never thought about that. That really is it. It's not that they win the cases, it's that the process is the punishment. They get into these cases and they're so expensive and so long, and they keep throwing, you know, motions and roadblocks and everything else at you, and it runs five years, really? It took five years to settle this thing and to come up with the repayment for all that it cost him to do something that was completely constitutional anyway? And I'd never really thought about you making that comment. You're right. The process, it was a hard process and it shouldn't be, but I think I think what I heard and it may have been from us last week, but the process often is the punishment. And I had not really thought of how often they use the process to punish us. We win in the end if we can afford it, but it shouldn't be that way.  

Rick Green [00:10:05] If we don't grow weary and well doing, right? And that was one of the things you taught me early on, man. You just gotta stay even kill, stay in the fight, don't get too elated, don't get to you know that quote from Benjamin Rush and I was thinking about Jack Phillips as you were t explaining that. You know, think about him, man, for decades, honestly. We're into decades now where he'll fight, fight, fight, fight, fight and win in Colorado, and keep his freedom of religion and free speech, and then they'll come at him again with another, you know, crazy deal. But man, he's just not grown weary and well doing. And I'm sure he has his days where he's like, Man, why am I still in this fight? And so, it's one reason for us to constantly encourage those who are in the fight and that are, you know, because we're all human, you know, and you get tired. So, man, five-year fight on this one, another great victory. Erin Smith's gonna tell us about it when we come back. Stay with us, you're listening to the WallBuilders Show. 

Rick Green [00:11:52] Welcome back, WallBuilders. Thanks for staying with us. Erin Smith is with us from our great friends over at First Liberty. First Liberty.org is the website. Erin, welcome to the program. 

Erin Smith [00:12:00] Thanks for having me. Glad to be here. 

Rick Green [00:12:02] Hey, excited to see we're finally gonna get dog tags with Bible verses again. Tell us about this. 

Erin Smith [00:12:07] That's right. Yeah, after years of litigation with the Department of War and the service branches, we're proud to announce that we've released we've reached a settlement. That will that that Shields gets a license to start producing dog tags again and the Department of War has agreed to get rid of their problematic policy that that caused all this in the first place. 

Rick Green [00:12:28] When did that when did they switch it? Well, like was this a Biden era, Obama era, Trump era? Like when did that happen? 

Erin Smith [00:12:36] Yeah, so the licensing of the military marks began while President Obama was in office, I believe it was two thousand eleven. And Shields had had a great relationship with the Department of War for I mean, decades. And it all went awry really when an anti-religion activist complained about what Shields of Strength was doing. And then the Department of War came in and said, hey, yeah, we know that we've had a great relationship, but you actually can't be using our marks with religion according to this policy. And Shields had had some issues before that with this policy that that started in, I believe 2014, maybe was when the policy came out. But it continued to make dog tags. And then in in twenty-nineteen the branches sent cease and desist notice after this complaint, and Shields was unable to make dog tags at all. 

Rick Green [00:13:34] Are they so is and this is for like their official dog tags that they wear while they're in the military? 

Erin Smith [00:13:41] So I'm glad that you mentioned that because so the United States military issues dog tags to every service member that includes, you know, things like their name and their religious preference. And so, this is actually different because what Shields of Strength does is they create these replica dog tags that are really not similar to the ones that they are issued by the military at all. They are jewelry-like pieces, they're high-quality metal with stamping done. Like they're not stamping like the way the official ones are done. It's kind of raised text with religious Bible verses or maybe the unit's insignia or something that would mean a lot to the troops. One of their most popular dog tags featured an American flag with Joshua 1:9 on the back. 

Rick Green [00:14:33] My favorite Bible verse. So, they were doing so this was I guess individual military members ordering these. So why would the DOD even stop this? Or am I even interpreting that right? 

Erin Smith [00:14:44] Yeah, you no, you're right. So one of the keys really goes back to, okay, so who's where is this coming from? Well, these are being made by a private company. And who's ordering them? Back when, back before we ran into all of these issues with this anti-religious policy and the licensing under the Obama administration, there was no licensing policy. So really anyone could use these what we what are now considered trademarks for free. They were just on the open, open market. And so, when the Obama administration came in, they realized, you know, I think we can maybe monetize this. So, they started requiring people that wanted to use things like, for instance, the Eagle Globe and anchor for the Marine Corps. Well, we want you to pay a licensing fee and pay us royalties for everything that you sell. And so that's kind of what started us down this road. But individuals were the ones purchasing these dog tags or requesting them. Sometimes it was chaplains requesting them on behalf of their entire unit, but these dog tags were never created or manufactured by the government. 

Rick Green [00:16:01] Interesting. But they were just stopping them because it, you know, resembled the military's dog tags or because they maybe had were they printing like the branch for particular branch that that service member was in and they were saying that's like almost like a trademark of violation? Like why would they even care? 

Erin Smith [00:16:20] So what's funny is that they here's what it goes what it comes down to. So we're just gonna keep on with our Eagle Globe and Anchor analogy and use that and say, okay, so the Marine Corps has a trademark on the Eagle Globe and Anchor. So you have to be licensed to use it. It would be, you know, like having a license to use the Nike swoosh on something. Right. 

Rick Green [00:16:47] Right. 

Erin Smith [00:16:48] So then you go, okay, well, I'm gonna pay for a license. So now I have the ability to use this. What the government did was they took and said, hey, if you have a license, here are the ways you're allowed to use it. And here are the ways you're not allowed to use it. Well, interestingly, one of one of the ways that you were not allowed to use it was with something religious. So, a Bible verse, a cross, anything that would what the government was afraid of was, well, if you're using our marks, then that means we're automatically giving approval to the thing that it's on. So, anything that the Eagle Globe and Anchor is on, all of a sudden, we're now endorsing or approving of religion. And so, when that complaint came in, what they accused the military of was, well, you're establishing a religion. 

Rick Green [00:17:40] Well no. So, this is like an endorsement of a particular religion argument. 

Erin Smith [00:17:44] Right, right. So that's where it came down to. They said, well, we don't want to endorse any religion, so we're just gonna not allow any religion at all, which is viewpoint discrimination. That's plain and simple. If you're gonna allow one thing, you have to also allow if you're gonna allow something secular to be used, you have to also allow religion. And so, when we went and looked at all the ways these trademarks were being used, we saw so many examples of other things that were just the equivalent of something secular. 

Rick Green [00:18:19] And they allowed that. 

Erin Smith [00:18:20] Right. They allowed that, but not but not the Bible verse. 

Rick Green [00:18:23] Okay, so that that became the heart of y'all's argument then that it this is viewpoint discrimination. 

Erin Smith [00:18:28] Correct. 

Rick Green [00:18:29] Okay, gotcha. And so we've got a lot of listeners that are service members. If they want to now order something through Shields, they can do that. 

Erin Smith [00:18:37] Absolutely. Yeah. And that that's even part of part of the settlement is the Department of War has agreed to provide notice to military exchanges and to the chaplaincy to let them know that that this case has been resolved and Shields of Strength is fully back up and running. 

Rick Green [00:18:56] Nice, nice. Okay. And this was you guys were able to reach a settlement. You didn't even have to get a court decision on this. 

Erin Smith [00:19:02] That's right. Yep. They the Department of War and credit to, you know, some of the new folks that came in with the Trump administration realized very quickly that this was this was a losing argument that they were making and this really ha getting Shield of Strength back on track was in in the best interest of everyone involved, including the service members that no longer had access to them. 

Rick Green [00:19:25] Yeah. Yeah. Nice. All right. Well, great victory, Erin. Congrats to y'all and to of course all of our service members that that wanted to be able to do this. Let's see a lot of Joshua 1:9 out there. I love that. Have not I commanded you. Be strong enough of a good courage. All right. Anyway, Erin, God bless you. Thanks for all y'all are doing and appreciate you coming on the show today. 

Erin Smith [00:19:44] Thank you for having me, it's always a pleasure. 

Rick Green [00:19:47] All right, firstliberty.org is the website to learn more. Stay with us, folks. We'll be right back with David and Tim Barton. 

Rick Green [00:21:00] Welcome back to the WallBuilders Show. Thanks to Erin Smith. And of course, to all the attorneys at First Liberty. Talk about staying in the fight. I was thinking on the break too, guys. What was the what was Coach Joe's it was not quite a decade, but it was close, right? It was like nine years that he had to fight to for just praying at the you know 50-yard line at the at his school. And of course, First Liberty, that was another one of theirs. So, to along that theme, man, let's just not grow weary and well doing. Let's encourage everyone as you're going into the holidays, get a little rest, you know, eat well, spend some time with the family. And after the first of the year, it's the 250th next year. So, let's get back in the fight. 

Tim Barton [00:21:35] It is great that they were able to get the win in this, but guys, I do wonder, and Rick, I I almost wished, no, I do wish that there'd been a follow-up question at the end of, hey, obviously it's so good that y'all settled that we now have a Department of Defense that is willing to do that. However, if this is just now the executive branch acquiescing to this, isn't it possible that the next administration, if they're not Republican, right? Can they can they come back and do this? Which is the only reason it might have actually in my mind made some sense to say, hey, we know we're gonna carry this out. And it's not because we're against you guys, it's because we want to bring clarity to this to make sure that nobody in the future can come back and say, you can have any opinion and expression you want as long as it's not Christian. If it's Christian, you can't do it. Anything else is fine. Obviously, as you pointed out in the interview, this viewpoint discrimination. But I I do wonder, and obviously, guys, you can speak to this. I do wonder if this is something that maybe should have been carried on. Again, knowing that the Department of Defense is now in favor of this, it brings a quick resolution which lets all the active-duty soldiers right now be able to go back and have that kind of pro-faith dog tag kind of things. But does it set us up that we might have to have the same battle again in the future? What do you guys think? 

David Barton [00:23:00] You know, it's a great question. It's the difference between righting the wrongs and preventing the wrongs. And in this case, they were concerned about righting a wrong, but you raised a great question. How do you prevent this? Because even if Trump comes out with all the things we think he's gonna come out with in this finding, how much of that actually becomes law and becomes something permanent? I think I heard someone media last night, I don't know how accurate it is, but they said so far not a single one of Trump's executive orders have been codified into federal law. So, all these changes he's made can easily be reversed by the next president, even though he's created a completely different national atmosphere because it is not in law it can be reversed. And so, it's a great question, Tim. And I'm sure, you know, Kenny Smith was tired of the five years and tired of all the stuff, just like Coach Joe would have been, just like Jack Phillips is, and they keep hanging in there. And that's a that's a great question, is you know, you achieve the win, but what about the policy? 

Rick Green [00:24:02] Yeah, yeah, it's a good strategic discussion, right? How do you know when to how oh I almost sang the gambler? I gotta know when to hold him, know when to fold him, know when to walk away. Come on, did y'all watch that with Kenny Rogers when you're you know, Tim is you were too young for it. David, you might have been, you know I don't know. Anyway, I tried. Anyway 

Tim Barton [00:24:20] I had my mic on mute.  I was singing in the background. Gambler. I was with you, bro. I was with you. Yes. 

Rick Green [00:24:27] I could just see Kenny Rogers on that train, you know, and in that they were great made for TV movies, but they always ended with the song. You got to know when to hold them, no when to pull them. But anyway, I you know, of course, Kelly and the and those guys of First Liberty, of course, masters at that and kind of try to figure out. I I would wonder too, though, if they figure if they get this settlement and then the next administration, you know, down the road, 20 years from now or whatever, or even five, I hope, Lord not, but they go the wrong direction, then can, you know, does this just give them more firepower for that particular fight in the future? But yeah, tough, tough, tough call. But I I was wondering too, was this one of the Mikey Weinstein, or was he just mostly focused on Air Force? Was that where he tended to this wasn't one that he was involved in, or do you know do you guys know? 

David Barton [00:25:08] He was focused on all of it. Yeah, Mike Mikey was focused on all of it, but he was in the Air Force and had better Air Force connections. So, I did a list that that was given to the Commission showing the hostility under just four years of the Obama administration. And I would say that even though there's six branches of military now, five branches back then, probably seventy percent of all the egregious violations to religious liberty occurred through the Air Force, which I think is an indication of his direct influence that he had as a former Air Force JAG officer. He knew the guys in the Air Force and could get them to buckle under a lot faster. 

Tim Barton [00:25:47] Well, and guys, I think this is a great example too that elections have consequences because that was largely under the Obama administration. And now under the Trump administration, right? We're going a very different direction. And so it we talk about it often. Elections have consequences. There's a reason we have to stay involved and not be disheartened, not be discouraged, not be disenfranchised, as there's a midterm coming up next year, and it can make a big difference what direction our nation goes based on who our leaders are. We gotta stay involved and make sure we have a voice in this upcoming election. 

Rick Green [00:26:21] After you said that about the Air Force, I was wishing that one of the other Barton boys was on. If Kane or Steven was here, they would have definitely made an Air Force joke about why the Air Force allowed that to happen and didn't fight back. But since I'm not a Marine or an Army guy or Navy or any of those things, I can't make that joke. So, we'll just pretend I didn't say that. All right, we're out of time for today, folks. I'm looking forward to all that Air Force hate mail. Thanks for listening to the WallBuilders Show.