Rick Green [00:00:07] Welcome to the intersection of faith and culture. This is the WallBuilders Show, taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective. Thanks for joining us today. I'm Rick Green with David and Tim Barton. And today we're going to take you out to the legislators' conference again, we did that yesterday and on Monday for Jason Isaac talking about our energy policy. Today and tomorrow, we're going to give you Matt Staver of course, Liberty Council, you're probably familiar with them. We have Matt on quite often. He's always got a case either before the Supreme Court or dealing with some major issue in the country. He does incredible, incredible work. LC.org is the website for Matt Staver's organization, Liberty Council, LC.org. Fantastic organization. We love them. Work with them all the time. And Matt often comes and speaks at the legislators conference. Well, as I said yesterday and the day before, you want to make sure you're letting your state rep and your senator know about the legislators conference. Get them to the conference next year. It will absolutely energize them. It'll give them great ideas going into their next legislative session. And of course, with 2026 being an election year, the conference is going to take place after the election in late November. And then it'll get them ready for their January session that'll start in January of 2027. It is not too soon to be thinking about that and telling your state rep and your state senator about that. So, for today, we're going to go back out to the conference. It just happened a couple weeks ago and listen to Matt Staver's presentation, catching us up on some of the legal fights out there, specifically dealing with marriage and how to restore marriage and how it's been torn down with some of the Supreme Court decisions over the last couple of decades and how we can get back to a place that respects marriage in our culture. So, we're gonna take a quick break. When we come back, we'll dive in with Matt Staver at the legislators conference. Stay with us, you're listening to the WallBuilders Show. 

Rick Green [00:03:00] Welcome back to the WallBuilders Show. Let's dive in. Matt Stavers speaking at the Pro Family Legislators Conference. 

Matt Staver [00:03:05] It's always really good to be here with David and Cheryl and Tim. What a great family and an amazing, amazing ministry that we've had the blessing of being able to be a part of and see how much impact. And obviously, this event is just an example of that. So, I'm Matt Staver, founder and chairman of Liberty Council. I just returned yesterday from an argument that I presented at the Maine Supreme Court at 1:30 in the afternoon. And it was regarding a situation that we don't normally get involved in, which is child custody issues, unless it has some religious component, some significant issue. And this one did. This one is an individual who 12 years ago gave birth to a child, a beautiful girl by the name of Ava. And but they never got married, and so they had child custody. She had primary custody, Emily, the mother did. And then she became a Christian and she began attending Calvary Chapel in Portland, Oregon. And then the husband, or I should say the father, not the husband. The husband did not want Ava, this then 11, now 12, soon-to-be 13-year-old daughter, to attend any church. And so a judge who is a former president of the local ACLU was on the case and issued the most outrageous order I've ever seen. Every time the word God is mentioned, it's always in lowercase, and everyone who knows the punctuation of God is God obviously in uppercase is a supreme being, an individual supreme being. God in lowercase is polytheism. It's an insult to Judaism and Christianity. Actually said that this church follows the quote Moses model, which, like Moses, is a bad individual. And the Moses model is you've got somebody who's a strong leader. And the strong leader is the pastor, and he preaches the Bible verse by verse, chapter by chapter, speaks about heaven, hell, and salvation. And that's scary. And therefore, this child cannot be exposed to this church or anything like that. So, for the last year, this child has not been able to attend church of any kind, can't attend any religious event, could not attend a Christmas event last year, can't attend a Christmas event this year, unless this order is overturned at the main Supreme Court. Can't read the Bible, can't discuss religious literature, can't watch a video, can't even associate with anybody with Calvary Chapel or any other church, frankly. So, her friends are completely cut off. She couldn't go to a funeral, could couldn't go to a wedding, couldn't go to a slumber party. And in fact, if she had a friend and then they became a member of, say Calvary Chapel, this evangelical Protestant church that loves God, loves the Lord, loves Israel, frankly. Then she would have to disassociate with them. It's the most outrageous thing I've ever seen. And so, pray for the case. It's the Emily Bickford is the mom, Ava is the daughter, and it's Bickford versus Bradeen, B-R-A-D-E-E-N. So please put that on your prayer request. We had a good oral argument. One of the justices didn't seem to buy anything, but the others, I think, got the message. But that's the kind of issue that we are involved in around the country. It's an assault on freedom, particularly religious freedom. What Liberty Council does, we Anita and I, my wife, who's president and general counsel, we founded it in 1989. Our mission is to advance three pillars, religious freedom, the sanctity of human life, and God's design for marriage and the family. I want to talk about a couple of things with regards to religious liberty and religious freedom, but I want to begin with an intersection between religious freedom and also the natural family. And it's a Obergefell versus Hodges. Ten years ago, we began representing Kim Davis, the Rowan County, Kentucky clerk. And on June 26, 2015, five lawyers, and that's the chief justice's words for these five individuals, they had the audacity to say that they could redefine God's definition of marriage as the union of a man and a woman, and therefore it means nothing. Two people of the same sex is the same thing. And as a result of that, Kim Davis said she could not put her name and title on a document that affirmed marriage as a two people of the same sex because that would be disobedience to God. So, she asked for a very simple accommodation. Just remove my name from the certificate. That's all she wanted. Remove my name from the certificate. I can't associate my name with something that God does not design or bless. So, she was sued. She went to jail for six days while she was in jail. Then the deputy clerk, while she was in prison, fearing that he might be sent to prison as well, actually issued a license but struck through her name, wrote through the bottom of her name, struck through it, issued the license to the same-sex couple, David Ermold and David Moore. So, they got the license, but they were upset because they wanted Kim Davis's name on it. And so, they went back to court. They asked for the judge to hold her in contempt. The governor, the Democrat governor, Stephen Bashir at the time, who refused to give her the accommodation originally, then actually said it's okay having that with the name struck through. It's still a valid license. So that was the first accommodation de facto. Then a Republican governor was elected, Matt Bevan. And in December of 2015, he gave an executive order granting religious freedom, not only for her, but for all the clerks, all the clerks who have their names off the marriage certificates. So that's the second accommodation. Then in April of 2016, A unanimous legislature passed a law that said all the clerks can have their names off all these certificates. And so that's the third exemption. So, she got the exemption. They got the license, but they didn't get a license with her name on it. So, the litigation continued for 10 years. And eventually we went to a jury trial. One jury at the same time, there's two juries in the same courtroom hearing the same evidence, seated side by side. I've never seen anything quite like that. The one jury went away and 45 minutes later said zero damages against Kim Davis. The other one came back and said $100,000 with no explanation, no basis. There's no lost wages, no treatment, no counseling, no nothing. Zero. $100,000 and the judge tacked on $260,000. So, $360,000 against Kim Davis personally. And so, we asked the United States Supreme Court to take the case. Three of the justices, including the Chief Justice, have already written strong dissents that it has no basis in the Constitution. And it's the chief, John Roberts, who said five lawyers, they imposed their will, not a legal judgment. And it has no basis in the Constitution. So, we were anticipating and hopeful that after 10 years, this case with this individual who was radically transformed when she gave her life to Jesus Christ a few years before she was elected county clerk in 2014, would take the case and overturn Obergefell. But unfortunately, they decided not to do that. They declined to take the case. And of course, you may have, I'm sure, read about this in the news. So that ends the ten-year litigation for Kim Davis, but I can tell you for a fact that does not end the march to overturn Obergefell. 

Rick Green [00:10:29] Quick break, everybody got to interrupt. We'll be right back. You're listening to the Wallbuilders Show. 

Rick Green [00:11:39] Welcome back to the WallBuilders Show. You've been listening to Matt Staver teaching at the Pro Family Legislators Conference. Matt's organization is Liberty Council. You can find out more at LC.org. That's LC.org. Let's jump back in with Matt Staver. 

Matt Staver [00:11:53] What Kim Davis started 10 years ago, and the life that she put on the line will also, I think, be a legacy to overturn Obergefell. And that's your job. That is why we need you to do some actions to be a part of that phase two. Why is it so important? What Obergefell says as a policy matter is that in a gender-based relationship, gender is irrelevant. You can't have more gender-based relationship that's objective and based upon reality for millennia from the dawn of creation, than in marriage between a man and a woman. You don't need a PhD. You can be a little kid, you understand marriages between a man and a woman. You can recognize a man and a woman. But when you come to marriage that has been historically throughout millennia of time, throughout the dawn of creation, and you say that, no, we're going to redefine it so it's no longer what we obviously know to be true, a man and a woman, it can be two men or it could be two women. When you do that as a policy matter, what you are saying as a policy matter is gender is irrelevant. And that's the whole agenda of the LGBTQ agenda. It is the abolition of gender. And when you abolish gender, what you do is you have a direct assault on God, our creator, because God created us in His image. Male and female. And when you abolish gender and say that it doesn't matter, and that you can recreate yourself as male, female, both, neither, whatever, and you can change and it's fluid, then what you are saying is God, the creator made a mistake. He put me in the wrong body. And consequently, I will recreate myself in my own image. It's the most obvious rebellion against God, our creator. And that's why when you speak out on this issue, that there is this visceral violence. That's why Charlie Kirk was murdered. He was in the midst of speaking about the trans issue in the context of these mass murders. And that is clearly an epidemic. And so, when you address this, there is this violent, demonic, dark response to it. We cannot avoid it. And we cannot assume that, oh well, same-sex marriage, we've had it for 10 years, it doesn't hurt me. No, it does hurt you. What we are experiencing with regards to men and boys and girls and women's sports or in private spaces, it's based upon Obergefell. When gender doesn't matter in a gender-based relationship, it doesn't matter anywhere. It doesn't matter in your restrooms, it doesn't matter in your pronouns, it doesn't matter in your sports, it doesn't matter. And it's an open abolition of gender. So We must, I believe we will. In fact, I've said many times, it's not a matter of if, it's just a matter of when Obergefell will be overturned. Why? Number one, because it has no basis in the Constitution. It has less basis in the Constitution than even Roe versus Wade. In fact, the the retired liberal former U.S. Supreme Court Justice Stevens actually wrote a law review article recently and said that under the court's previous precedent, Obergefell could not exist. He even acknowledges that as well. It is completely an aberration. It will fall, and we need to have a mindset and a strategy to make it fall. So how do we do that? Well, obviously, Texas just recently, two weeks before the Supreme Court decided not to take our case, did exactly what they should have done. They should have taken the case. They should have ruled on religious freedom. They should have overruled Obergefell. Texas Supreme Court just a few weeks ago, two weeks ago, maybe three now, in a nine-to-zero opinion, because Texas judges were under assault just like Kim Davis, because they didn't want to officiate at same-sex weddings, they changed the judicial code of ethics saying that judges for religious reasons can opt out of performing same-sex ceremonies, and that does not violate judicial impartiality. So that's one way. To and we have information in both the religious freedom as well as natural family legislation that can do that to protect people's religious freedom. But that's a band-aid. We need to obviously protect religious freedom, but this opinion has to go. And how it goes is we challenge it. One way to challenge it is to begin to develop an inertia resolution like last year. There were non-binding resolutions that began to be put forth that marriage is the union of a man and a woman, resisting Obergefell. But also, by the way, we have 30 plus states. This is an easy way to do it. You just need a bold executive to do it. But we have 30 some states that have state constitutional marriage amendments. I drafted the state constitutional marriage amendment in Florida, and I argued it at the Florida Supreme Court. We won seven to zero and it passed with the 60 plus vote margin that was necessary. And it's on the ballot, and it passed, and it's in the constitution, and it's still there. And so, if Obergefell were overturned, it would come back into existence. But it's still there. And the Supreme Court had no right constitutionally and had no right to override the Tenth Amendment rights of states. Marriage has always been at the state level. Domestic laws have always been in the states. That's your venue, not at the Supreme Court, not at the federal level. And they jumped into this issue just like they did with abortion. And they finally, after so many years of killing so many kids, they got out of the abortion business and put it back to the states where the battle is. But marriage had never been there. And it it is a states' rights issue. So, begin to look at natural family and also religious freedom, how you can reassert states' rights on this issue. And by the way, you have to have information because when you address this, somebody's gonna say, why are we even talking about this? It doesn't bother me. No, it does. Why are we talking about this? It's been in existence for 10 years. So what? Roe versus Wade was in existence for 49 years and it killed a lot of people and it's had a lot of damage. And this also will do the same because it is at the very foundation of all that we're dealing with the LGBTQ agenda. 

Rick Green [00:18:47] One more break today, folks. Gotta interrupt you. We'll be right back. You're listening to the WallBuilders Show. 

Rick Green [00:21:00] Welcome back to the WallBuilders Show. Let's get back with Matt Staver teaching at the Pro Family Legislators Conference. 

Matt Staver [00:21:05] With regards to religious freedom, this also intersects with the LGBTQ agenda. And this really, I think, is a tip of the spear with regards to religious freedom and the clash of LGBTQ. They can't exist, by the way. They cannot exist. And it's not because religious freedom is intolerant of others. It's because the LGBTQ agenda will not exist in compatibility with religious freedom because one has an absolute God created us in his image. There's male and female, two sexes, and the other says, no, there's not. That's at the very crux of it. It's a very significant issue. It's a clash that cannot be reconciled. Liberty University, we represent them. And there was an individual who, Jonathan Zinski, began taking female hormones four months before he applied to Liberty University. He then applied in the doctrinal statement. It's very clear, God created us in his image, male and female. And it is a sin, the doctrinal statement says, to identify as any sex other than your birth sex. He signed off on that as though he was in agreement. He waited for the 90-day probation to expire. And when it expired, he comes in and he says, By the way, I'm changing my name to Eleanor. I've been taking these hormones, these female hormones. I want to quote transition to be a woman. I want to dress like a woman. And they said, well, that violates our doctrinal statement, and they terminated him. The ACLU was waiting in the wings, setting the scapes up to take Liberty University down. I will argue that case at the Court of Appeals in January of 2026. It's a huge case that likely will go to the United States Supreme Court. We actually had 19 states plus the District of Columbia, blue states that filed a MICAS brief against us because they are afraid that our argument under Title VII, particularly the exemptions of Title VII for religious organizations, will actually trump the LGBTQ agenda. That you'll actually have religious freedom and they won't be able to push their LGBTQ agenda and change doctrines of Christian churches, synagogues and universities like Liberty University. And that's why they filed this brief against us. On the other hand, we have a lot of briefs that were filed in amicus brief supporting our position. It is attracting a lot of attention nationwide. And so that's a big case coming up. So, in terms of employment, there's other possible legislative enactments or procedures or strategies to pursue in the religious freedom section as well, also in the natural family section as well. This issue, by the way, is maybe uncomfortable as it is and as violent as it sometimes gets, because we get, you know, a lot of death threats when we talk about these kinds of things. We just live with it. Others, you know, might get a little intimidated by that, but you have to be prepared both spiritually and you have to be prepared in educationally when you step into this arena, but you cannot. One of the options is you cannot ignore this. You have to address it. You have to be informed. You have to be prayed up. You have to be prepared, because this is the battle that we are facing that's so critical. I will say this before I move on to the next thing. One of the things that I think is so insidious, and you'll see this in the I'll talk about it a little bit more in the family section, is yes, we have to be strategic. Yes, we have to be truthful. But this whole agenda is very harmful. I mean, for example, take Chloe Cole. She had different kinds of psychological issues. She was on the autism spectrum. One in five people that say that they're quote, trans, a study shows, has some level of autism. What we're seeing is the idea of trans identification is declining because it's more idiopathic, it's more sociological, it's more following the trend of your peers or the pressure of the things around you. But one of the things that is very problematic is when children are having issues, hormonal issues, maybe inflammation issues. Psychological issues, other kinds of issues, and they're having real problems. And their parents take them to a counselor seeking help. And the counselor, instead of addressing the underlying issue to help that hurting child, says, you know what? I know what's wrong. You're in the wrong body. God made a mistake. They may not say that last part, but that's what they're saying. God made a mistake. You're in the wrong body. Here's how we fix it. Well, they want to have a fix. They are seeking some kind of relief. And the relief that they're told is, we'll give you puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones, and then we'll go through some surgeries and you'll be okay. And that's what they did to Chloe Cole. And before she even turned age 18, she not only had puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones, but she had a total mastectomy. Then she regrets it. 

Rick Green [00:26:20] All right folks, we're out of time for today. We're not gonna be able to finish Matt's presentation, so we'll pick up right there tomorrow. And if for some reason you're not gonna be able to catch the program tomorrow, go to wallbuilders.show and you can download it at any time and share it with your friends and family. It's a great way for you to be a force multiplier. Help us get this good information into as many hands as we possibly can. We'll see you tomorrow. Thanks so much for listening to the WallBuilders Show.