Rick Green [00:00:07] Welcome to the intersection of faith and culture. It's the WallBuilders show. Thanks for joining us today. Rick Green here with David Barton and Tim Barton. You can learn more about us at wallbuilders.com and you can catch up on past radio programs at wallbuilders.show. Later in the program, we've got Father Frank Pavone with us and,  and I'm bringing along the airport announcer for my part of the show today, guys. Sorry, I'm in the airport traveling today, but, we've got a little bit of background noise, but anyway, Father Frank going to be with us, you know, it's not just in the Protestant church where we're seeing young people getting more engaged also in the Catholic Church. 

David Barton [00:00:38] Now wait a minute, is that a Texas airport or are you in enemy territory somewhere? 

Rick Green [00:00:44] Well, that depends on your definition of enemy. Cause as long as I'm in Hawaii, I'm winning them over to conservatism

David Barton [00:00:50]  Oh, are you kidding? 

Rick Green [00:00:51] Rhett's getting married this week guys, so my youngest is getting married. I'm gonna have all four married in just another day 

David Barton [00:00:57] Hey, congrats, that's good news. 

Tim Barton [00:00:59] Congratulations.  

Speaker 4 [00:01:01] Yep, that's good. 

Tim Barton [00:01:02] Well, if you have to be a missionary for Jesus somewhere, Hawaii feels like a good place to do it... 

Rick Green [00:01:06] Thanks, guys. That's right , if you're going to suffer  fr the Lord you might as well do it somewhere like Hawaii, right? 

Tim Barton [00:01:09] That'd be great.

Rick Green [00:01:11]  So father, Frank will likely get into this, but,  you know, guys, we've had so many programs in the last couple of months, just talking about revival and talk about, especially with the youth becoming more conservative. Becoming hungry for truth and, and getting more involved in the church and it's not just the Protestant, so it's a Catholic church is exploding as well. 

David Barton [00:01:30] Yeah, it's one of those interesting trends that caught my attention for sure because we've seen some things in the Catholic church that kind of make you raise your eyebrow. One of the cardinals not long ago, big controversy erupted when he was going to give Dick Durbin this achievement award and a whole bunch of the younger priests and even the bishop said, wait a minute, wait, this guy is one of the leading pro-abortion voices in America and you're giving him this major achievement? And so there was a lot of pushback from a lot of priests at that point in time. And that was, that was significant because we've seen like the, the priests that is with Nancy Pelosi in Washington, DC said, yeah, I'll give her communion. Now, wait a minute you're not supposed to be doing that if you're not in good standing with the church and so she's one of the most pro-abortion people out there. How can you give her a communion? And we've the same thing with, with Biden as well. And so, there's been a dichotomy within the Catholic church of hey you guys are very very strongly pro-life but it's not really showing up in a lot of your priests and then we saw this headline that that maybe things are changing to the with the  Catholic Church and with the priest. 

Tim Barton [00:02:38] Yeah, and guys, I would point out too that although we're really excited to get to Father Frank and then we really need to take time for him to be able to expound and dive into this some. This is something that as we have seen maybe some of the inconsistencies certainly inside the Catholic Church or from the Catholic Church. We could just about pick any denomination in Christianity and say a lot of the same thing as we've seen denominations even this year, splitting over what should be some very basic bible positions, but there are leaders saying you know what, we're not really sure. We, we want to stand on what the Bible says, the Word of God says, and those are leaders inside of churches, denominations, why this is super positive is because in the Catholic church, the rising generation of future leaders, these, these young priests coming up, they have looked at some of these social topics and issues. And essentially they've said we're standing with what the Bible says this shouldn't be complicated or. That controversial from a Biblical standpoint. So that really is encouraging. I'm sure there's a lot we can get into and talk about as well. Not just, again, inside the Catholic Church, but kind of what it means across. The board is it's a trend we're gonna see and continue etc. But it will be great to get with Father Frank and talk through this a little bit. 

Rick Green [00:03:54] Father Frank Pravone, our special guest today. Stay with us. You're listening to The WallBuilders Show. 

Tim Barton [00:05:04] Welcome back to the WallBuilders Show. This is Tim Barton joined by our good friend, Father Frank Pavone, who we introduced before coming in. But Father Frank, as you have been a leader in the pro-life movement for, at this point, it's decades and decades. I don't want to, I don't want to put a date on you to make you feel old at all, but you've been an incredible leader for so long. And we were talking before the break that one of the incredible things we have seen is in the midst of, for example, over in England, the Anglican Church, having a woman now leading, and we're seeing so many churches, denominations, going different directions. One of the incredible things, we saw this article that highlighted that there's a growing movement of conservatism inside the Catholic Church with Catholic priests, and we thought, okay, you're the guy we wanna get on and talk about this. 

Frank Pavone [00:05:56] Yes 

Tim Barton [00:05:57] Can you give us some insight? What's actually going on? What are you seeing? And when we see an article that talks about the growth of conservatism, what does that actually mean? Father Frank, help give us insight on this. 

Frank Pavone [00:06:10] Well, thanks, Tim, for the opportunity. And of course, thanks for all the great work of WallBuilders. We're proud to be friends and collaborators with you. Yes, the survey came out about Catholic priests, 2025 survey, national survey, pretty good sample, and it shows politically more conservatism among younger priests. Now this didn't surprise me because of course in our work with Priests for Life, we see the same phenomenon in our interaction with the clergy as we try to get them more involved in the fight against abortion. And we also see, you know, I think part of the explanation for this is that it's a population. You know, our friend Charlie Kirk would always emphasize over recent years that this current generation is the only one that is worse off than their parents, since George Washington. And he said, look, this generation right now is the most depressed, the most suicidal, the most anxious, the least obese, lowest home ownership, drug addicted, poor. And he used the word directionless. Now, when we think of the word directionless... Both within the Catholic Church, coming off as we are of the pontificate of Pope Francis, and also in America coming off of the disastrous Biden years, I think everyone, and this includes the younger people, is feeling like, all right, enough of this, enough of this confusion, enough of this moral relativism, even in the church, because Pope Francis remember some One of the things he did. Was where, I mean, we don't need to read his mind or judge his heart, but objectively, some of the things he said and did left believers confused about whether there are objective and absolute moral norms or whether the church still believes what she has always believed about sexual morality. Now, of course, the Catholic Church does still believe that. He just didn't do a very good job representing it. So I think that the younger clergy are reacting against all of this and they want. Order in their lives. You by the way when we talk about younger clergy, you know, we know that what is considered Gen Z Okay, are 13 those right now who are like 13 to 28 years old. I was ordained to the priesthood I was only 29. So what we can say is that right now Gen Z priests are now starting to be ordained in the Catholic Church and and and so they are really coming out of a background and a culture and, and I mean, remember they were COVID, you know, messed up their schooling and they probably had their graduation in some kind of, you know virtual setting or some kind of side room with everybody 10 feet apart. I mean they've gone through really some hard times. And I think some of that accounts for now, them looking for more doctrinal stability, political stability. And we see that in the survey.

Tim Barton [00:09:09]  Well, I think it's interesting too then in the survey as it identifies some of this conservative position. Our friend George Barna will talk about the theologically conservative pastors and often those are just the pastors who actually believe the Bible says what it actually says. And so the idea that they're considered theologically, conservative has always been a little funny to me that just believing the Bible makes you conservative somehow. But I do think it is interesting as you point out that there's a movement of people coming back to the Bible. And I think it's great as obviously at WallBuilders, we do a lot with American history. And when it comes to the pro-life movement, we would say, look, this was fundamental from America's inception, that the first of the inalienable rights was a right to life. So this should be an American ideal, American value that we fight and defend. The Founding Fathers believed in the right to be born and the defending of that right to live. And we actually can... Go to things like James Wilson and some of his early law books where he talked about, a beautiful and undeviating human life from its commencement to its close is protected by the common law. And he goes on to explain, life begins when the infant is first able to stir in the mother's womb. And by the contemplations of law, that life is protected. Now, I don't mean to get in the weeds of quoting a law thought from James Wilson other than the fact that he pointed out, and this was while he was a Supreme Court Justice. That the laws of America protect the life of the unborn child. And I'm saying this from an American values perspective that as Americans, we should be recognizing and defending fighting for the right to life. As a Christian, which is far more important than the American ideals, as a Christian this is even more clear. And the fact that there's been confusion, and I'm saying this knowing that you're not just part of the choir, you've been the choir director for years on this idea of the clarity of the biblical position when it comes to life, and the fact now that there are more priests and more spiritual leaders that are saying, look, there's clarity in the Bible. This is something that should be celebrated, but now let me ask you a question. Why was there ever confusion on an issue that's not confusing in the Bible? Why do you think there's been confusion? And we could say certainly, as we look at the Catholic Church, some Catholic leaders that have not been clear on this issue, again, we think that it's clear in the Bible therefore should not be confusing for us. But we could see this really for pastors in general because even though Priest for Life is something that has roots in the Catholic Church, you work with pastors of every denomination, you work with Jewish leaders, helping defend the value of life. And again, when there's clarity in the Bible, why do you think this has been confusing in our culture on any level whatsoever for Christians? 

Frank Pavone [00:11:52] Well, let's take the example of some prominent politicians who claim to be Catholic, Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden, and recently, of course, the whole controversy over Dick Durbin, Senator from Illinois, whom the Cardinal Archbishop of Chicago wanted to award, even though he's been one of the most pro-abortion senators of all time. Why do these men and women think they can get away? Withholding and espousing publicly such a confused position. I'll tell you why, they have and in the sidelines, each of them, they have a priest who to whom they are going with whom they're consulting and who is giving them theological, it's false theology. Okay. And it's false. They're false prophets and they're scripture twisters. But they are giving them a theological, spiritual, and even biblical rationale, as flawed as it may be, that makes them confident. Because they're not just confident about their political legislative position on this issue. They're going forward and saying, oh yeah, you know, this is perfectly in line with my faith. I'm a practicing Catholic. Where do they get that? Priests are enabling them. All of this to say there is a coordinated, concentrated, deliberate, sustained effort to confuse. This confusion doesn't come about by itself. It's an effort and it's all part of the attack on faith, on values, on America and on the Constitution and on our freedoms that we see coming through as it's one of its main channels through the Democrat Party. But also through other left-wing organizations and entities that fortunately now we see being systematically dismantled, defunded. I mean, so much of what the Trump administration is doing is, it's just weakening the strongholds of the left. But I think a large answer, large part of the answer to your question is simply that there has been a sustained deliberate effort to confuse.  And we see that even within, you know, some theological seminaries and, and other institutions and publications within our Catholic community and within the wider body of Christ. That are just, I mean, you read some of these things and you say, what planet did this come from? You know, and it's, it's deliberate confusion.

Tim Barton [00:14:13]  Well, I think one of the things, and we talked about this a little bit off air as well, one of things that I'm very excited about. This is not fully the Charlie Kirk effect, although after Charlie Kirk's murder, we saw an incredible increase of people wanting to go to church, of people looking for answers, people that were discouraged, looking for hope. But really, we could talk about the last several years. We have seen an increase of the rising generation looking for answer and largely coming to faith where for the Gen Z generation. The highest attending generation when church, the highest church attending generation is not the elderly, which it used to be, right? We would think the old people, they're the ones that go to church. No, the rising generation has the highest Church attendance of any generation. That's Gen Z. And it's actually the young men that have the highest church attendance, and interesting that the biggest swing of of faith for the Gen Z is in the Catholic Church. And, Father Frank, I would love to know, I have some ideas, but what do you think in the midst of God moving and drawing on hearts? And to also be very clear on this for all the listeners, we at Wall Builders, we love and we have friends in, like, all the denominations in the Catholic church, in the Anglican Episcopalian, like we can go down the list of all the different denominations, protestant, you know, high church whatever it might be and and we really feel a little bit like maybe to some extent the founding fathers when they first came together, and they're coming from so many different directions, but they had common values that allowed them to align and work together to accomplish something very significant. And I think a lot of that is happening right now, but let me back up. For Gen Z, a lot these young men are being drawn to the Catholic Church. Father Frank, apart from obviously God being the one drawing them to faith, what do you think it is about the Catholic Church that is so appealing to young men? Again, I have some ideas, but I would love to know, what do think is drawing them to the Catholic church? 

Frank Pavone [00:16:17] Well, I think when they're growing up in a society and some of them have not known anything different, where we can't call a man a man or we can say a woman is a woman. And I think, by the way, a lot of that is rooted in the fact that for 50 years, we've been saying a baby's not a baby. You know, it's the same rejection, obvious rejection of God's truth written in creation. But I think that when they see powerful forces in society, blurring that basic common sense distinction, they really feel disoriented. They might not say that, they might not even have processed that intellectually, but there's a disorientation that comes with it because it's such an attack on common sense. And when then they go and they look at the scriptures and they looked at the clear teaching, God made them male and female, and Jesus reaffirming that, and Paul reaffirming that, in the book of Revelation talking about the bride and the bridegroom, I mean it's so clear from the beginning to the end of scripture. And then they look at an institution like the Catholic Church which has so clearly preserved that teaching, even to the point where, and of course, other denominations share in this point I'm about to make that we ordain to the priesthood, we ordained to the ministry only men, not because we don't think women can do a good job. It has nothing to do with that kind of discrimination. It has to do it with marriage. It had to do with the fundamental conviction that Christ is the bridegroom and the church is the bride, and that within our Catholic teaching, we represent that sacramentally where the priest has to be therefore male as the bridegroom, but if society is confusing that fundamental distinction, well, then I think our younger people are noticing that, wait a minute, there's a little bit more sanity in these religious groups, in the scriptures, we need that. And they feel, I think they feel an existential need for that kind of clarity and consistency because it's the consistency is there throughout history. 

Tim Barton [00:18:19] Yeah, and that's what I have sensed is it's the clarity that has been the most attractive. And so even though people, these young men are going to lots of churches, I think where they're drawn are the places that are offering the most clarity on some of the issues where culture has been most dishonest and made it the most confusing. And they're drawn to where they've been told in culture, there is no truth, truth is subjective. It's how you feel. And you come to a place that says, no, we don't care how you feel. In fact, you need to crucify your flesh and your sinful desires. You need to take up your cross. It's not about you. There's something greater than you. You should be serving other people, not just serving yourself. I think where they are given clarity and where they're challenged to be something different than what culture has told them or caught them. There's actually a peace in that, that you go, something is right about this. There's, there's a deeper level of truth in this than what I've seen in culture. It resonates, it's speaking to the spirit-man inside of me. And I think this is one of the reasons that the Catholic church has seen and been able to bear the benefit of so much of the increase of these young people coming is because there's been more clarity in the message that's been communicated in a lot of ways. And Father Frank, we're already running short on time and there's so much more I want to talk about, but I know with the work you've done with Priests for Life, with so much going on, as we're coming up on the 250th of America, first of all, we are celebrating the fact that there are more priests that are promoting some of these traditional biblical values that are coming to this conservative thought of the Bible. But I know coming up with 250th, are there things going on? Do you guys have plans coming up? I don't want to have you on and not give you an opportunity to tell us some of the things you guys are doing. 

Frank Pavone [00:20:00] Well, thank you for that. And yes, we have, I've been privileged to be part of the planning commission for this America 250 celebration. And one of the things we're going to kick off in 2026 is the National Prayer Service on the day of the March for Life. And so that is going to be on the 24th of January, in Washington at Constitution Hall and nationalprayerservice.com is the website, but connected with that, all kinds of efforts that we're doing to show that in our founding documents, as we undertake this year-long celebration to learn those principles better. We're going to see the right to life front and center, as you've already mentioned, our founding fathers believed in it they wrote it right there in the Declaration, and we're really going to expound on that during the course of the year. But that prayer service in January is really going kick off that effort for us. 

Tim Barton [00:20:51] Where can people find out more about that? 

Frank Pavone [00:20:55] NationalPrayerService.com. 

Tim Barton [00:20:57] Okay, NationalPayerservice.Com. And if they want to participate, is this something that's gonna be streamed online? Can they come in person? Are there more details about that. 

Frank Pavone [00:21:05] We invite them to come in person. They can bring large groups. Constitution Hall is pretty large, but also it'll be online as well.... 

[00:21:13]  I love it. Well, Father Frank, we are so grateful for you. We've appreciated your friendship for decades. And thank you for taking time to be with us today. 

Frank Pavone [00:21:21] It's always a pleasure. Thank you and for all your team at Wall Builders. 

Tim Barton [00:21:25] All right, we'll be right back in a moment with David Barton and Rick Green. 

Rick Green [00:22:35] Welcome back to the WallBuilders Show. Thanks to Father Frank Pavone for joining us. Always love Father Frank, man. We get to see him once in a while at events across the country. He's always smiling. He's so encouraging. And even when he has to fight so much within his own church. So anyway, great to have him on. 

David Barton [00:22:50] Yeah, it is great to have them on. And, you know, as Tim alluded at the start of going into this interview, it's really good to hear how strong this is within the Catholic church that their next kind of generation of priests coming up are really strong. And I was thinking about something earlier and it goes back to something I haven't really got a good handle on yet, but we've talked in recent weeks about some of the polling that's out there showing that while the young generation is becoming more conservative in areas and more church attending. It's like, and the growth of young people attending church, it's among Gen Y and Gen Z men, it is not among Gen, Y and Gen Z women that we're seeing that, that significant church growth attendance. And so it's like how's it, the guys are becoming maybe more conservative. And, and then we saw some numbers that kind of showed the same thing on pro-life that the Gen Y, Gen Z guys were becoming more pro-live whereas Gen Y Gen Z girls weren't. And so looking at the Catholic church, since it's all male priests coming in, that makes a lot of sense or a whole lot more conservative But then when you see, I noted a stat the other night after the election of Mondami for mayor of New York City, I think it was 89% of the young women who voted, voted for him. I mean, that's like an unbelievable number. Politically, when you get to 80%, that's basically unanimous. So that's even past unanimous when you got 89%. So it's a good trend to see that youth changing, but I'm not sure I figured out why it's kind of gender specific in this thing, which seems unusual. 

Tim Barton [00:24:18] It really is interesting guys we talked for a lot of years about how we need a young man to step up to be men to be leaders for so many things, right? We need better husbands and fathers and leaders and homes, et cetera. But certainly, Dad, to your point, we never would have thought that there would be maybe a falling off of women who were pursuing some of those same biblical truths. Rick, obviously, you are in the middle of leading a program. Not just from a Patriot Academy standpoint with a Leadership Congress, but you do a year-long internship, and I think, you can correct me on this. I think this is your largest class you've had to this point. What are you seeing with the young people coming in for you? And obviously knowing this is going to be probably a little different for them because they're people that probably care about truth and want to grow and learn. But what are you seeing from the young people you're working with? 

Rick Green [00:25:06] Yeah. And what's interesting is the, the breakdown based on gender. I don't see it all in these kids, but it's also a, you know, it's a pretty select group and they kind of have self-selected themselves, to commit a year to find God's purpose for their life and to get grounded in apologetics and, and defending the faith. So it is definitely a unique set, but bro, I'm telling you, they are absolutely fired up, they are purpose driven, they want truth. They are not, you talk about uncompromising, like they don't want any compromise on the issues. So they got a stronger, deeper faith and commitment to that faith than I've, than I'm ever seen. And I think a lot of the stuff that's happened, the pain of the last few years has, has created a lot that, but it's weird to see these, these bigger numbers like out of New York. I just don't see it in the kids that we've got. 

Tim Barton [00:25:52] Now, Rick, I know we're almost out of time, but I know there's parents right now listening going, man, I want something like that for my kids. How do they find out more about this program? Where can they sign up? Obviously, Patriot Academy. Obviously, they need to go to Leadership Congress. But if they want to come for a year to be mentored and trained and find more of God's purpose, hear God's voice, maybe in directional leading, what can they do? 

Rick Green [00:26:13] Patriotacademy.com/institute, PatriotAcademy.com/institute, and we are seriously considering taking a mid-year class because we see so much demand in so many of these kids in response to Charlie's assassination, saying I really want to change the trajectory of my life and I want to be more committed. So folks that are interested, go to that website and let us know, and we may actually do a January class in addition to our regular incoming September class. Thanks for that, Tim. All right, thanks Father Frank for being with us today. Thank you for listening. You've been listening to The WallBuilders Show.