Rick Green [00:00:07] Welcome to the intersection of faith and culture. It's the Thursday Foundations of Freedom program. That's your chance to ask questions. You can send those into radio at wallbuilders.com. Appreciate you listening to The WallBuilders Show. Rick Green here with David Barton and Tim Barton. This is that one day a week where we let the listeners drive the program. So be sure and send us those questions. We've got a lot of them. We're gonna try to get to today. First question though is a big one and may take up the whole program, but when you're sending those questions in, it can be about the constitution or history. Or even current events and how to apply a Biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective to those things. David and Tim, you guys ready? All right, first up, Israel. Here's our question, and it is from George. He said, why does our nation support the state of Israel when they are into so much evil stuff? And Biblically, they are not the true people of God because they don't believe in Jesus Christ. Oh guys, if I had a nickel, for every time in the last six months that these two things have been brought up. And never in my life had I heard these two things until the last six months. So it's really kind of weird how much these questions are now dominating the discussions about Israel. And yet, now maybe y'all had heard these before, but for me, these were kind of new, I guess, I don't wanna say attack lanes, but in many ways just, I guess questions. I got a lot of genuine people that sincerely are asking these. So gonna be a great topic today. What do y' all think? 

David Barton [00:01:33] Well, since I've got the most years on this, I can tell you I've heard this several times. 

Rick Green [00:01:38] Wait, wait, what do you mean most years on this? 

David Barton [00:01:41] On this topic. On all topics, with us. Don't get into this age thing, Rick. Don't go there. 

Tim Barton [00:01:49] You brought it up! 

Tim Barton [00:01:54] You forgot you mentioned that. It's okay, it's your age. 

David Barton [00:01:57] I forgot. I forgot I mentioned. Oh wow. Getting personal now. Okay, so backing up. Alright guys, since I have the most years on all of you and this is a question that has come in cycles. It's really interesting. This is probably the third or fourth cycle I've seen of this question coming up and it tends to last for several years. It goes away and then it comes back and so So this is, and now as we've got so many more younger generation moving into the circle of faith. And we've seen what's happened to Gen Y and Gen Z men particularly. This is something that certainly the schools have stirred up that Israel is not good, it's not an ally, it's a not a friend. And then there are some in the church community that say, well, they're not Christians. And we know that that's what the scripture is all about. And that's why God wants his people to be Christians. So this is something that can be answered biblically pretty easy. 

Tim Barton [00:02:53] Well, let's also point out that also some of the biggest voices used to be known as these strong conservative voices like Tucker Carlson, like Candace Owens. And now we can look and go, you know, there's there's some people, I don't know what they've been drinking, but I think they've been drinking something. You know, Candace Owen, it seems like she's gone crazy in some ways. Tucker as well, some of things he's promoting now and saying that as a Christian, you can't support Israel. Like this is antithetical to Christianity, et cetera. And so it's not just that there are maybe Christians or pastors confused in like an independent lane. Some of the biggest names in the conservative movement have gone this direction and now there is seemingly a pretty big fraction inside the conservative moment and frankly inside the church over what is the correct position both from a political standpoint. And from a biblical Christian standpoint,  as you mentioned, there definitely are answers to this, but there can at times be some nuance and so I understand why there can be discussion and debate. But I think some of the arguments can be a little short-sighted and also worth noting that one of the positions because as as people of faith who do believe in and read and know the Bible, you know, one of the things the apostle Paul talked about in 1st Corinthians 8 for the Christians living in Corinth, there was a practice at the time where people would make sacrifices to these foreign gods and some of the meat that was used in the sacrifice could then be sold in the marketplace and you know, whether this meat was sold cheaper or whatever the reason was, there was a question of, hey, can Christians, can we buy meat that's been offered to these other idols? Is that okay? And Paul gets into, to some extent, where there can be an issue of conscience in here. Well, some people can look and go, man, I think that's totally wrong, but it's so offensive. And Paul says, if it offends them, then you shouldn't do it around them, right? You don't want to cause them to stumble. And then on the flip side, he said, but, you know for us, I don't see any problem with this. And I'm saying it because there are, at times, issues where Christians can be divided on the issue. We can have different perspective. In fact, there are some verses, frankly, between the three of us. There might be verses we read and might find disagreement with the interpretation of that verse. Now, the reason we work together very well, and it's very easy, is because similar to the founding fathers, we have those core values, those core principles that we all agree on the foundational things. And so if there's a detail we disagree on it's not as big of a deal. Well Israel and the biblical position of Israel certainly is a bigger than a detail, but I'm saying it again that it's not a new thing for Christians to have disagreements in the interpretation of the Bible or to have controversy on issues surrounding the Bible or God's plan or God intent or God covenant and what that looks like. So just because somebody disagrees doesn't necessarily mean that they don't love God or don't believe the Bible. But dad, I think the point you're gonna make is the Bible is probably more clear than what some of the arguments would seem to suggest.

David Barton [00:05:58] Yeah, it would. And by the way, you're right, Tim, we don't, even among the three of us, we don't all agree. You and I don't agree that Genesis 1, 1 talks about baseball, but Rick thinks that it does. So we even have disagreements among ourselves. 

Tim Barton [00:06:11] You know, in the beginning, that's when it all started. That's what Rick told us. 

David Barton [00:06:15] In the beginning. 

Rick Green [00:06:16] Yeah. And not only that, everything's about baseball. I just want to, yeah, that's right. 

David Barton [00:06:22] Yeah. That's right. Now, Tim, you're right. There are some basic guidelines that we all have to take. I was math and science in college, scholarship on it, and we try our best to understand math and science, but there's just some things that we had to take and accept that that's the way they are. Some things are not going to be explained. There's some things in science we can't explain yet. We know what they are. We don't always know the process of how they work. Or how it got to that process. And biblically, it's the same thing. We hope to all grow in our faith. We're told in 1 Peter 3:18, grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord, Savior, Jesus Christ. And that growing is a process. No matter how long you live, you need to be growing. There are times when very old people are babies in the Lord. And there's time when very young people are very mature in the Lord. So it's a growing process. It's not necessarily chronological. It's how much effort and time you put into it. And so within that process, one of the things that you accept, we accept the laws of science whether we understand them or not. We accept the Laws of Gravity, we accepted the Law of Thermodynamics. All the other laws, whether we understood them or are not, they are true. And so that's the starting place where it takes some faith. We take that position with the Bible. We figure God definitely is much smarter than us. And even if we don't understand some scriptures, we're going to take them as true and accurate we're going to accept them. And we'll say, okay, I'm gonna put that on a shelf and think about it for a while. I'm going to accept that it's true and I'm wanna see if I can figure it out as time goes along. And so with that, there are some very clear positions the Bible does take about Israel and they don't always make sense. And I'm hopefully we can make some sense as we read. I've got three scriptures pulled out here that kind of lay out the premise of why people believe that God does have favorites and that Israel is one of His favorites because He says so. So I'm gonna start back where this train of logic runs and there's many other verses in the Bible, but these are the three that would be kind of the foundation of the belief that Israel is special and that even though she doesn't act right all the time and do all the right things and even though, she's not Christian, God has made provision for that. So here we go. In Genesis 12 verses one through three, God, this is the- one of the first irrevocable covenants He made. He had a covenant with Noah, and then He has a covenant Abraham. And so Genesis 12, reading verses one through three, it says, the Lord said to Abram, go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation. And I'll bless you and make your name great so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you. And him who dishonors you, I will curse, and through you, all the families of the earth shall be blessed." So Abraham gets his first covenant that I'm gonna make a nation out of you, and whoever blesses you, I'm going to bless whoever curses you, I'm in a curse, and that has been the standard for that nation. So whether you like Israel or not, God made a covenant and said, if you curse Israel, I'm to curse you. And so God already has laid down the first barriers, or the first standard, there's more to come. 

Tim Barton [00:09:42] Well, and Dad, I would point out that already, there would be people that would say, now look, that was a covenant that God made with Abraham as an individual, that that's not necessarily the nation of Israel, right? That you're conflating two things now. And I'm saying this, acknowledging that this is. This is something that, as you're saying, there's a lot of clarity here. There would be people that disagree. And as I'm saying that, there is a growing percentage of people that disagree with some of this thought, but you're just walking through some of the biblical ideas because there really are, there are two sides to this argument, both sides have verses they're going to point to. And we will talk more about that in a moment, but this is one of those verses where you look and you go, hey look, God told Abraham to make you a nation. And then I'm gonna bless those who bless you and curse those that curse you. But he says that after he says, I'm going to make you a nation. So clearly it's including the nation that God is going to create from Abraham. That's the way that has largely been interpreted over generations. And again, people would dispute that and debate that at times, but that's certainly one of the ways it's been interpreted. And that's one of three verses. Dad, let's go to the next verse.

David Barton [00:10:47]  So what happens now is after Israel does become a nation and they go into slavery for 400 years and God takes them out of slavery, makes them into a nation, creates the Hebrew Republic. That by the large, that was the model that founding fathers pointed to. The pilgrims pointed that as a model for their settlement. Founding fathers used much of what happened with the Hebrew nation early on. Even in the original seal for the United States that was imposed July the 4th, 1776. It's based on what happened with Israel as a nation as they're going into the promised land out of 400 years of slavery. God brings them out of slavery, He takes them to the Mount Sinai, He gives them the 613 laws that caused them to become the Hebrew Republic. Those laws include the Ten Commandments. And He says, I'm gonna take you into your own land. And so it's the land I've given you. And so as He starts moving the people out, starts moving, the Jews, starts moving Israel out into what's going to be their land, what's often called the promised land, they, they defeat king after king and nation after nation. And as they, move through their, their doing, and obviously the kings that live there don't want to be defeated. And one of them is a King named Baelic. And he said, got to stop these Jews, got it, got to stop this Israel people before they get here. They, they want to wipe out my nation. And so he hires a prophet, a prophet named Balaam. And he says, I need you to put a curse on these people and nothing military is stopping them. You gotta stop them, put a curse on them. And at that point, Balaam wants to do that, but literally the Lord won't let him do that. And this is a story that's told in Numbers 23. 

Tim Barton [00:12:32] Dad, let me interject. Numbers 22 is where the story starts. And verse 12, I think is the one you're referencing, where God said to Balaam, you shall not go with them. And this is the king has sent a delegation to come recruit Balaams saying, hey, the king really needs you. He needs you to come in and put a curse on this Jewish people. And so when the delegation gets to Balaam, it says verse 12 and God said to Balaam you shall go with him. You shall not curse the people for they are blessed. Now. Clearly the Bible has indicated that the Jews are blessed at this point this I think is also where some people would say well back Then they were but since Jesus came it's all different, right? We can come to that in a minute But clearly when when Balaam is being recruited God tells Balaim you can't curse them because they're a blessed people.

David Barton [00:13:20]  And so, at that point, a significant verse is Numbers 23 and 19, as the king keeps offering incentives to get Balaam to do whatever he can to curse. And Balak has asked for this, and I like the way that Balaam responds. He said, look, God is not a man that He should lie, nor the son of man that He should repent. Has He said and will He not do it? Or has He spoken and will He not make it good? In other words, He put a blessing on those people. He made a covenant with those people. You think He's going to break His word and not keep His word? And that's where he says, God is not a man that he should lie. And so numbers 23, 19, God's not going to bring His word. He's going keep His Word. He made a covenant. He made promise. And so even with somebody who's trying to  get a curse on Israel, said, I can't do it. God won't let me do it,  He's made a blessing to these people. So that's a significant kind of setup, maybe perhaps of the tone that's yet to come. 

Tim Barton [00:14:18] Well, and I know we need to take a break, but it's worth people going back and reading Numbers 22 and 23, seeing some of this, because there is a sequence where Balaam finally agrees to the king, and God gives him permission to go to the King, but only say what I tell you. And the first prophecy, more or less, that the oracle that he gives is actually a blessing over Israel. And again, you can go back and read this, but there's clarity in this, because even the beginning of Numbers 23, where Baleam says the king. How shall I curse whom God has not cursed? How shall I denounce whom the Lord has not denounced? Et cetera, et cetera, on it goes. And again, Balaam is making it very clear before this king that God hasn't cursed His people, therefore I can't curse His people. That's not something I have the authority to do. And again I know we need to take a break, but Numbers 22 and 23 give clarity to the point you're trying to make. 

Rick Green [00:15:08] Our guys quick break, we'll be right back at Foundations of Freedom Thursday, you're listening to The Wall Builder Show. 

Rick Green [00:17:19] Welcome back. Thanks for staying with us here on The WallBuilders Show. It's Foundations of Freedom Thursday, and we had a question about Israel, and of course, kind of a two-part question, one being, is this the children of Israel that we're supposed to be supporting, or because they're not Christians and don't believe in Jesus? Are they truly the people of God? And then, of course the issue of their nation, the state of Israel, the government of Israel has done bad things. So, you know, David, you were you were laying out the biblical argument. And sort of the, just the responsibility to support the children of Israel and why God blesses them. And I know you guys have heard this thing about, well, but these aren't the children of Israel that He told us to bless. How do you respond? That part. 

David Barton [00:18:01] Yeah, this is where the third real important verse comes in is Romans chapter 11, because at this point you now have the Christian church. You now have Gentiles becoming Christians. You have what's called the New Covenant, the old covenant made with Abraham. Now we have a New Covenant through Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is the way to the Father, etc. And so as Paul, who is a Roman himself, but who is the leader of the Apostle of the Gentiles, he's the one bringing all these non-Jews into the church. He writes a letter to the non-Jews, and he says, "'I ask now, has God rejected His people?" And this is out of Romans 11. "'Has God rejected His people?' He said, "'By no means. God has not rejected His People, whom He foreknew. Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking, but the elect obtained it, but rest were hardened, and it is written, "'God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see, and ears that would hear, down to this very day.'" So, in other words, Paul is saying, hey, God did this, He made Israel's heart be hard. So this would allow Christians to get in. So this is God's doing. He said, "so I asked, did the Jews stumble in order that they might fall? By no means. Rather, through this salvation has come to the Gentiles so as to make Israel jealous. Now, if their failure means riches for the Gentile, how much more would their full inclusion be? For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world"  and in other words, they rejected Jesus and they didn't accept Jesus, And then he says, "if their rejection of Jesus means the salvation of the world", he said, "what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?" He said, "if the root is holy, so are the branches." And the root was the Jewish people and the branches are the Gentiles and the Christians that were added in. He said "but if some of the branches were broken off and you, although a wild olive shoot were grafted among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches," toward the Jews," if you are. Remember, it is not you who support the roots," not Christians who support the Jews. "It's the Jews that hold up the Christians." If you remember, he says, "then you'll say, well, the branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in. That other covenant's gone, we got the new one. He said, that's true. They were broken off because of their unbelief. But you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. I do not want you to be unaware of mystery, Brothers. But a partial hardening has come upon Israel that the fullness of the Gentiles might come in." So he's saying, hey look, God turned their heart away from Christ to give you guys a chance to come in, but he said the covenant's still there. He's gonna take the veil off their eyes at some point, and when he does, they're gonna come in too, but he says right now, the fact that they're not Christians not moving that way is what's opened the door for Christians to be there. And so Christians don't reject the Jews, they just realize that this is a time that God is doing something with Christians. And so the hostility of, hey, Jews are not in. No, no, Paul makes it really clear. They're the ones that hold up the Christians, not the other way around, and they will be part of that covenant at some point. 

Tim Barton [00:21:03] Well, and this is one of the verses that I think is very important in some of the modern conversation, because I've seen a lot of pastors actually very divided on this issue. And not just in the like Tucker Carlson, Candice Owens, you know, really anti-Israel position, but where they'll point to things like Galatians 3. And in Galatians 3, where the promise goes to those who believe in Christ, the end of Galatians 3 in verse 29, it says, and if you are in Christ, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. And really you read all Galatians 3. Paul, in many places in various epistles, he actually explains, Dad, kind of like what is in Romans 11, but in different nuanced ways, where he says that Christians, we are now the heirs, and Christ is the fulfillment of the covenant, the promise that Christ was a seed coming from Abraham, etc. And so there's a lot of now Christian leaders that say, so Christians, we are now the promise to fulfill with the seed of Israel. And maybe even, as Romans 11 pointed out, a lot of these natural branches have been cut off and we are the ones, Christians, we are ones who are now this branch, et cetera. And so I do understand where there can be maybe some confusion navigating so what really is this and what isn't it. And I do think there's actually some parables Jesus told that might have some good parallels. For example, you can look, there's two different ones I think of, both of them where a father had two sons. One of them was the prodigal son The prodigal son it seems to be the favored son by the father who's gone crazy a different direction The other son's like dude. I've been with you the whole time right this crazy one's not paying attention There's another parable where Jesus talks about The father goes to his first son and says, hey, I need some help in the field. The first son's like, oh, dad, I got you, no problem, and doesn't go to the field, second one says, I don't really have time, but then ends up going to the field, and well, which one really fulfilled the will of the father? Well, the one who actually did that thing, and I say this because I think there is some similarity and parallels between Christians and Jews to some extent in this. When you look at the Bride of Christ, the Bride of Christ largely believe this is gonna be the Christian church. But dad, to your point, even backing up to what Paul said in Romans 11, that the promise of the fulfillment of this covenant, Jesus, finally the eyes of Jews are going to be open and they're going to come in. And so to some extent, this is almost like in a family where you've been adopted into the family until you're the adopted child and the biological heir has gone off and rejected. So you're now fully living in the home. You're embracing the inheritance, the name, the title. It's amazing. You love being here. You have this connected relationship with your adopted family. And you're looking at the biological child rejecting, at times despising, speaking against, and you're like, what is wrong with you right now? And I think that's part of the parallel. But one of the things that we should be taking from this, Is we ought to be praying that the biological child returns to the father not that we despise the biological child for rejecting the great thing that they had what God had given where there was fulfillment of what that the father had done. It's really does seem like to some extent it's two kids in one family and as as someone who has an adopted child the biological I can tell you. I love both of them and I don't have a favorite. Now there's sometimes I favor one's behavior over the other, right? But as parents, sometimes I have friends that talk about when they had their first kid, they thought, man, I'm not sure that I could ever love another child as much as I love this one. And you have your second kid or your third kid, your fourth, and you realize, no, what happens is my heart expands and grows and I continue to love more and more. Not that my heart is split and torn, no it multiplies. And I think this is what happened with what God did for the Christians by inviting us in, but God has not fully despised and rejected the Jews, and if God doesn't. Then we shouldn't either. In fact, it should be one of our biggest prayer burdens and prayer requests that they return to the promise and the Father. And obviously there's a lot more we get into with the Bible. And I mean, Rick, we haven't even gotten into the geopolitical side of why it makes sense maybe to have Israel as an ally. 

Rick Green [00:25:18] Yeah, you know, I keep hearing this thing about, you know, state of Israel is doing terrible things. And I think, like I said earlier, you know, our own government does terrible things sometimes too. That's the nature of man and, and sinful man, just the basic political facts on the ground are that they're, you know, are only real true ally in the region in terms of same type of economy, same type of government, that sort of thing. And it just makes sense to support them, let alone the fact that if you can't tell the good guys and the bad guys, when you look at what happened on October 7th and just, you know, the history of everything that's happened there. And know who we should be helping and who helps us, even in terms of Massad and intelligence gathering and all those kinds, I mean, all of those reasons are actually not necessarily non-biblical, but in addition to the biblical reasons that we talked about today. So yeah, we could certainly cover a lot more on this, folks, and I'm sure we're gonna get lots of questions, guys, in follow-up to what we've talked about, today. But the short answers, as I'm understanding what you guys are saying, is that we support Israel because we're supposed to do that biblically, Regardless of whether or not they have come to Christ yet as in terms of individuals of the children of Israel and we don't buy into this replacement theology out there. And also just from a pure what's best for America It is an America first policy to support Israel, not blank check, but to support Israel as best we can when it makes sense. Alright folks! We're gonna cover that one a lot more in the future I'm sure thanks for sending in that question George, one question Foundations of Freedom Thursday. Sometimes it happens and it happened today. So thanks for listening. You've been listening to the WallBuilders show.