Rick Green [00:00:07] Welcome to the Intersection of Faith and Culture. It's The WallBuilder Show, taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective. Rick Green here in studio, Tim Barton's in studio. But yes, David Barton still out there on the road with our friend Chad Connelly. Faith wins, hitting the road, rallying pastors, educating pastors. I mean, there's just a hunger for truth right now. And we love seeing pastors come out to these events. So David, start us off, man. Where, let's see, we had you. Yesterday, where were you? New Jersey? No. No, Maine. You were in Maine. New Hampshire and Maine. New Hampshire in Maine, so how about today? Where'd you end up today? 

David Barton [00:00:41] Today, we are in Ohio, multiple meetings in Ohio. We will head immediately after the last meeting tonight into Michigan, multiple meetings, in Michigan. And there are interesting things going in these states. I mean, this is certainly kind of a year early, but it's also not kind of year early because we're at the end of the year. And a lot of these states will start having their primaries in the spring. So we're really only three or four months out from voting again for the next cycle. And now is when candidates are deciding that they want to get in or not want to get in, if they're going to run for governor, if they're gonna run for Senate or whatever. And with the Senate being a big consideration and in 26, along with the house, these are areas where we want to make sure good people are mobilized and that we can keep good people serving in the federal government, but also, there's there's governor's races here. There's just, I mean, five minutes ago, we were on the phone talking about a race in South Carolina, five people running for governor there. So all over the nation, this is the time that we want to see good candidates step forward and get some support and be able to move through onto the finals. So just part of the process. It's, it's not the glamorous part. It's not where the news is, but this is a time when you want to start making the best choices so that you have the best people running at the end rather than having all the good people get out early and bad people running at then. So that's kind of what we're working on. 

Rick Green [00:02:06] Well, that actually makes me curious because you've David you've probably been in more of those kind of meetings recruiting candidates run for office than anybody I know all over the country, including back in my day, those meetings to recruit me to run for office. I'm wondering if it's gotten better. Like, you know, you had to dig out of the bottom of the barrel to recruit meter run for Office. So are the options better because people are starting to see government as a realm that Christians should be involved in. You know, I used to a Christian to run, you're like having to convince them of all the things you're already teaching just to get a good candidate. I'm just wondering how that looks for you these days versus 25-30 years ago. 

Tim Barton [00:02:41] Hey, and not to take away from the question, because I do want to answer the question. I'm just curious, does anybody else hear a bird? Dad, I know you're outside. Are you under a bird's nest right now? 

David Barton [00:02:52] Man, I'm looking. I'm under a clear sky. 

Rick Green [00:02:54] I hear it now. I didn't hear it, but now I hear it. 

David Barton [00:02:57] I'm under a clear, clear sky? 

Tim Barton [00:02:59] So our producer, Justin, is Rick. At this point, he's going to take whatever magic he has as an engineer and remove the bird sounds. And I'm going to be the crazy one. You guys hear the birds? And they're like, no, there's no bird sound. 

Rick Green [00:03:11] What's that clicking noise? No, you know, I'm wondering, does this mean that David is not out there speaking to pastors and churches, but he's gone to some bird sanctuary and is now watching? I cannot see David Barton wasting an afternoon looking at birds. I just don't see it. 

Tim Barton [00:03:24] Well, you know, it's harder to find good Christian candidates when you're in the birdcage. So you just. 

Rick Green [00:03:31] Ha ha ha! 

David Barton [00:03:33] Oh man. Got to be you guys making the noises. Cause I'm standing here and I can't hear none of it. 

Tim Barton [00:03:38] Well, okay, so not to distract from a valid question, are we finding better candidates that often we have, we have dealt so many years with people being frustrated when it came to the general election, going, man, I don't wanna choose between a terrible candidate and the worst candidate. We want some good options, but we know that comes to the primary and we know then a lot of times it comes to recruiting good candidates to have in the primary, to vote them out of the primary to the General. So dad, backing up, are. Are you seeing a shift? Are we seeing better people start to run for office? Better people being recruited? Just to remind people of the question before the birds. What do you think? 

David Barton [00:04:19] You know, it's a complicated answer. I'm going to say the dynamics have shifted considerably and I'm going to use Charlie Kirk as an example. I now have seen multiple reports of people who said, I was always told this about Charlie Kirk. And now I've gotten online and listened to hours and hours and hours and turns out that none of what I was told was right about Charlie Kirk, but I believed it. And so what's happening right now is a lot of early ads are going out to try to frame people. And if you're gonna get into a race, the question is, do you want people lying about you with as much money as they often put into races nowadays? We were just talking about one of the five candidates running for governor already put 1.8 million in the ads. And we're sitting here, you know, months away from even the filing deadlines and are already putting just massive amounts into races. So I don't think, I guess the answer to your question is it's got different things that make it a little tougher, one is that people seem to be less willing to dig for the truth and they kind of go with sound bite answers. And so the question is, if you get in a race, they're going to throw mud at you. There's no question about that. Can you, can you withstand that? Or you, do you have the backbone to be able to do that? And can you come up with the money because there's a lot of interests that are willing to fund their candidates. And we were looking even to five that we were talking about for government for South Carolina. And of the five, if you were to take five pretty conservative issues, you know, where you are on judges, where you are live and things like that. Out of the five, there's really only one that would hit probably five out of the 5. The others hit two, three or four out of five and they're all well funded. So it's getting to where that, that it's a lot more polarization, I think to have a race now, but man, if you can get good people to get in there and stay there and fight for it, then they're, they're more equipped to stand when the heat comes after they get elected. And I think that's a good thing in the long term. 

Tim Barton [00:06:20] Well, I do think, guys, too, one of the things that we will see as a natural outgrowth of some of this revival we're seeing in the nation is there will be people that are going to be awakened to even recognizing the spiritual reality and the connection that Christians should have in all areas of life, but including in the political and government arena. I think one of things that we certainly can point to with Charlie's example, that he was helping make the case in many situations of that biblical connection. And of course, anytime someone, us or anybody else suggests that there should be a restoration of biblical values in America, of course, there's the accusation of Christian nationalism. And we've dealt with that topic many times before, but one of the things that we have talked a lot more about in presentations and in different groups recently is the ludicrousness of the claim to suggest that as Christians, you're not allowed to support your values and politics. But everybody else can support their values, but because you're a Christian, your values are not welcome. That doesn't make any sense at all to go further when people say, well, also we wouldn't want to be legislating morality as if every piece of legislation is not already a reflection of somebody's morality. And this is one of the things that people that have framed this argument or debate have done such a good job framing it that most Americans don't realize the inconsistency, the intellectual inconsistancy and dishonesty of the position that we've often repeated or heard repeated. Well, we don't, we don't want to impose our morals. We don't want to legislate morality on somebody else. Every piece of legislation is a reflection of somebody's morality. Every piece legislation. And it's, it's not a matter of, are we legislating morality every time someone passes a law saying that we are going to allow people to do this is because somebody thought that was a good idea. Somebody thought morally, that's a good thing to do. If there's a piece of legislation that says, don't do that, it's because somebody morally thought we shouldn't be doing that. That's a bad thing to do. So therefore it's not a question of, do we legislate morality? It's only a question. Of whose morality are we going to legislate? And if we're saying that Christians shouldn't, be involved, I would back up and contend Jesus was the greatest moral teacher that ever has been on the face of the earth. And if you're comparing all of the moral options, the moral values, the moral codes that are out there, none compare to Jesus. And so the idea that we would say we're not going to allow people to use the greatest moral code ever given to impact the morals that are leading people to do legislation, none of that makes sense, but this is where people have tried to silence Christians from being involved, but now backing up full guys in this thought, I think in the midst of this revival... There's a lot of people waking up to where we've been misled and lied to in a lot of ways, even when it comes to the fact that God made three institutions, God made the family, God made government and God made the church and God gave guidance for all of those. And as Christians, we should look for God's guidance to make those things better and we shouldn't be trying to exclude Christianity from government. We should be going, how do we include that moral code to make it better? And I think we're gonna see more and more of that in the midst of this revival we're in. 

David Barton [00:09:38] You know, it's interesting, Tim, as you talk about, even people saying Christian nationalists, you shouldn't get involved with your values. Look, just go back over the history and some of the greatest presidents we've had who have been the most pro-America, the most proconstitution, the most profreedom, have also been Christians. And that's because their religion says that you wanna treat others the way you wanna be treated and you wanna do good to others and you want to help others. And so they do legislate their morality and it's good for everybody else when they do so. If they're not a theocracy, they're not trying to create a theocracy. And so whether you take an Eisenhower or George Washington or an Abraham Lincoln or anybody else, they were all very open about their Christian faith. And it's just that today people, well, you know, you're legislating your morality. Yeah. Well, so do progressives legislate their morality and so do liberal secularists and everybody else. And speaking of that, there was a case that was just heard at the U S Supreme court that deals with this concept of morality and can you impose your morality on someone else? It came out of Colorado and in Colorado as all the, and this has been years ago before the trans stuff was really, the gender stuff was really changing. They passed a law in Colorado that was targeted at Christian counselors and that you cannot counsel a young person not to change their gender. You  can't...

Tim Barton [00:10:58] Hey, dad, to clarify what you're suggesting I think, and this is to clarify and correct me if I'm wrong, it was the idea if someone goes to a Christian counselor and they're saying, hey, I'm a biological male but I feel like a woman, help me navigate becoming a woman. And a Christian counselor couldn't say, hey, I know that you might be dealing with some confusing things right now, but God made you biologically a male. You are a man. Here's the way to navigate it. To suggest that someone was actually their biology, there were and we've actually seen this now in multiple states where they've passed laws banning what they call quote unquote conversion therapy, that if someone comes in who and this could be whether they're a homosexual, whether or transgender, like you can go down the list. If you were to suggest something contrary to their self-belief, their self identity, you would be considered trying to convert them from that. And they pass laws saying that you can't do that, meaning that if someone came into a Christian counselor and said, hey, I'm a biological male, but I feel like a girl. If that Christian counselor said, no, you're not actually a girl, you're really, your biology is a male, that's who God made you, it's who you are. For them to say that, it would violate the law, they could be arrested, there'd be all kinds of penalties and fines and whatever else connected, maybe even jail time, depending on how it all came down. That's what this case was about. Dad, isn't that correct? 

David Barton [00:12:24] That is, that's a perfect description of the case. That is what it's about. And there was a Christian, a lady who was a counselor who had counseled that. And by the way, her, it was really impressive what she did in the court, but she came out with all the statistics showing that no, this does help. And here's all the secular folks who don't do that counseling. And here is what happens with suicides. And so they went through a lot of medical evidence showing that this attempted ban on Christians being able to you know, all for an alternative view, as you just explained, Tim. When it started in the court, they were pretty hostile toward, they were very sympathetic toward Colorado's view and having banned what they call conversion therapy. And it's not conversion therapy, it's actually just giving counseling from a Christian viewpoint. And by the middle of the case, it had dramatically switched, and even the more liberal progress on the court were really butting into the arguments of the sides. And now wait a minute, that's... Pretty crazy and so don't know where to go because the court could either go ahead and issue a ruling on this or they could send it back to the courts in Colorado and tell them to look at it again with a different viewpoint. So I don't which way it'll go but at this point it was a very favorable day at least according to the arguments the way it looked like it went in the court. 

Tim Barton [00:13:42] And guys, this will be interesting too, because we do know from some of our friends in the legal community that some of these justices, even the ones that are considered quote unquote conservative justice, they haven't always done a good job upholding traditional conservative values on some of the human sexuality question. And not to get in the weeds of that, but it will be to see how this unfolds at, as you mentioned, the questions are very favorable, The way that they were asking the questions and framing it seems to indicate they're going to come down on the side of defending this Christian counselor that she shouldn't have been fined or fired or terminated like there shouldn't be negative consequences whatever those are or might have been for promoting a Christian view of those things when they're you're coming to a Christian counselor like that's not a crazy thought they'd have Christian ideas but one of the things we do from the Supreme Court is, generally speaking, there are three very strong originalist conservatives and maybe three is too strong, maybe two and a half, but there's three in the middle. And then there's 3 on the left. And so as we're looking at the makeup of the court, it really is not an overwhelming conservative court in a lot of ways. It's, it's actually a pretty mixed court. And so things like this will be interesting to see how it unfolds. And that's one of many reasons we should make sure we are praying as all of this is going on that God would, you know, kind of guide the hearts and minds of these people. And guys, one of the biggest decisions over the last, now it's been about a little over a decade, but one of the biggest decisions,  in our lifetime, again, arguably, however, significant financial impact, the, the decision of the court and the dissent was written by the same justice because that justice had been in favor. One side and then thought you know what no I don't really like that and then they wrote the other side and when the justice went to the other side the vote switched to made it the other side was now gonna win but the side that was now going to lose because of the 5-4 decision they said well we're leaving this justice logic and reasoning in there because it was correct when he wrote it and I'm saying that because they can change their positions and guys little trivia question What was the case, because I know you guys know, what was the case where the justice wrote the in favor and the dissent on the same issue? 

Rick Green [00:16:17] This has got to be Obergefell and Kennedy. 

Tim Barton [00:16:20] No, but it's a good guess. 

Rick Green [00:16:22] Cause he switched. It wouldn't have been the same year. Like he had previously said in the majority against, homosexual marriage. And then he was for it because I guess it depends on what cereal he had, whether it was Froot Loops or Cheerios. I'm not sure I know then. 

David Barton [00:16:42] I'm taking a pass on this one. 

Tim Barton [00:16:44] Okay, now you're making me insecure. Now I gotta look it up to make sure I'm right. If neither one of you know it, then I might be wrong. You know what, let's go to break. Let me look it over break. 

Rick Green [00:16:53] That's hilarious. All right quick break Tim's gonna check his notes and and this one will go down in history. We stumped David Barton I mean stumping me is no big deal that happens like twice a day But if we stop both David and me that's gonna be fun. Okay, stay with us folks. We'll be right back You're listening to the WallBuilder show 

Rick Green [00:18:16] Welcome back to the WallBuilders Show. Thanks for staying with us. Okay, so we were talking about this case before we went to break and I was thinking it was a great question by Tim. I was thinking it was Kennedy from back in the Obergefell case, dealing with, homosexual marriage and, it was Kennedy on one side of it. And then the other, but those, there was years apart. I forget like two years or a year, uh between those two. So this is somebody on the same case. 

David Barton [00:18:38] Before you go further, Rick, you mentioned Justice Kennedy. What was his nickname? 

Rick Green [00:18:44] Oh, I don't know fruit loop. No. 

David Barton [00:18:47] He was called Flipper. Flippor, okay. He literally was called flipper. 

Rick Green [00:18:50] Well, there you go. 

David Barton [00:18:51] Because he would flip from one side to the other. He would go from one to the side. So that he was known as Flippers was Justice Kennedy. So back to Tim's question. And Justice Kennedy was not there. 

Rick Green [00:19:03] That was like 2015 on Obergefell, right? I mean, it was like 10 years ago, 11 years ago. 

David Barton [00:19:08] Right, 2015. 

Rick Green [00:19:09] So Tim, you got our attention, man. What's the case that somebody was on both sides on the same year, in the same case, basically? 

Tim Barton [00:19:19] Okay. So I did, I did look it up and I, there's a little more nuance involved in it, but it was justice Roberts on what became known as the Obamacare decision. And originally he was with the four justices on the descent saying that Obamaca you can't mandate healthcare, but then he wrote the majority saying, but if you do it as a tax, you can. And so technically, he writes the majority. He didn't really write the dissent. I thought he wrote more of the dissents, but he only sided with the dissENT on part of it. But he disagreed with them on the outcome, saying that Obamacare, you can mandate this if you make a tax, because the legislature has the power to tax, which of course then is ironic, because Obamacre wasn't written as tax law or tax code. It was written as healthcare. So the fact that you then had a justice changing the nature of a law. To then try to make it legal and justifiable, just shows how really not good this guy was in making this decision, but he was with what became the dissent, acknowledging that you can't force people to buy health insurance, but then wrote the majority saying, but you can tax people, and if you do this as a tax, then it's constitutional. 

David Barton [00:20:35] There you go.

Rick Green [00:20:37] Yeah. All right. So that was not a good one. We get to go down in the books, somebody write down the date. We stumped David and Rick. Like I said, stumping Rick is no big deal. But, all right. So David, I hear Cardor's closing. You and Chad are back on the road and you were telling us earlier, you're in Ohio. Now, is this tour just this week or you guys are doing any more before the end of the year? What else do y'all have planned for Faith wins? 

David Barton [00:21:02] Man, I know the states this week, but we're on the road next week and week after, and I don't know those states. So just don't ask me the states. I can tell you where we are the next day or two. And that's as far ahead as I look. 

Tim Barton [00:21:13] I-I- 

Rick Green [00:21:14] You just make sure you check into the right of the right airline and go to the right, you know get on the right plane. Is that what happens? They just let you know. This is where you're going today. 

Tim Barton [00:21:22] Well, I can tell you that beside him in that vehicle is my mom and she has the calendar and she will be - he'll lean over and say hey Cheryl where are we going now and she'll say oh David let me put up on the calendar. And so like unquestionably and we can all appreciate this at some level because we travel a lot but most people have not traveled the extent that any of us have and we have all had moments where we've woken up in a strange room right a hotel room and we're like, "I don't know where I am right now." I don't know where the bathroom is in this place. Like I, I'm so lost right now, unfortunately at times that is a little bit of our life, but dad, I do know that you do have some more faith wins trips. In fact, Chad's in the car. If you want to ask him in a second, he can look it up and probably tell us where, but there are going to be some more faith wins events coming up this year, uh and then certainly there's going to be a lot next year. I have also talked and texted with Chad some about joining on some of these as well. So I do know there's more coming, but could not tell you where. 

Rick Green [00:22:31] Yeah, it's like that old, uh, was it a credit card commercial or one of those commercials where they, you know, the rock band or whatever's up on stage and they say, hello, Cleveland or whatever. And they're in, you know, like Boston or something like that. That's, that's how I feel. Sometimes I cannot remember where it was yesterday or what the event is that I'm doing now, but the fruit is incredible. We talked about that yesterday. Just the fruit of, of all of these stops that you guys are making. And, you know, David, I learned about George Whitfield from you and the 18,000 sermons and just, you hitting it and going to all these different stops because, you know, there's a, he had a sense of urgency and understood the seeds that he were planting were going to bear fruit. And I think you and Chad are doing the same thing. And of course, Tim and I doing the same thing out there on the road, but nothing like what you and chad do. So thank y'all for being willing to do the planes, trains and automobiles. And thank you, Cheryl, for getting them to the right place at the right time. 

David Barton [00:23:23] Yeah, it is a good season, I mean, what's happening, the culture is as bad as it's ever been, but the counter-insurgency, if you wanna call it that, average people are starting to stand up and say, no, this is way too far, this crazy. So we're seeing real good stuff, we're seein' good folks run for office, we're sein' more folks get involved, more folks wanna be involved, more pastors at the pastors meetings on engagement, so there's a lot there, and you know. Just like we covered with the news of the Supreme Court today, there's still a lot going on in the culture. Trump, bless his heart, he's got more lawsuits filed against him now for trying to stop crime in cities. And so you got this big constitutional debate over the 1807 insurrection act, which he's using, or the much later Posse Comitatus Act. And so it is just a time of conflict. I mean, we're so polarized as a nation. That to actually go in and try to lower the crime rate. And by the way, Pam Bondi came out with the new stats from Memphis, where they have sent in help from Memphis and how many criminals have been taken off the street, how many illegal guns have taken off street. She just updated Washington DC. And I'm just amazed at all these governors who are saying, absolutely not. You can't come here to our city and lower the prime rate. You can stop the violent crime. We're not gonna have that. And I'm just absolutely amazed that anybody would turn down help on lowering crime and protecting citizens. This is a really wild time. It's a wild time to be running for office as well. 

Tim Barton [00:24:58] Well, and I think that's what led to Pam Bondi's comment that if, if you loved your people as much as you hated Trump, right, there wouldn't be these problems. And that's exactly what we're seeing is in some of these cities, not that, not that every one of these Democrat leaders is hard hearted and super manipulative and divisive and, you know, it's calculating they want there to be crime and they want their to be blah, blah, I'm not, I'm not willing to go as far as say every one of them. But it has to make you wonder a little bit when you see so many of these major cities that are Democrat cities, that are, they're running the same playbook. They're banning guns, and yet there's an increase in violent crime. They're a sanctuary city for these illegal immigrants. I mean, you go down the list of what they're doing. They're running this same play book, and they're shocked that it's not working well. And then when President Trump says, because we care about the people in Memphis, because we're care about people in Chicago, we want to help. And then when the police chief in Chicago tells the police to stand down and don't help protect these federal facilities, don't help defend ICE, et cetera. It really is astounding, but it does show the political division and that they do seem to hate Trump more than they do care about love and want to help their own city and their own people. 

Rick Green [00:26:21] All right. So we will probably have, I don't know, maybe have David back in studio for our Foundations of Freedom Thursday this week and Good News Friday. We'll see if not back from the road. We can still knock it out, but you don't want to miss those. We got a lot of questions coming in from the audience. If you want to be a part of that program and send in a question, you can send it to radio@wallbuilders.com. Radio@wallbuilders.com. Thanks so much for listening today. You've been listening to the WallBuilder show.