Rick Green [00:00:07] Welcome to the intersection of faith and culture. It's the WallBuilder show on a Thursday, which means it's foundations of freedom. Thursday. We love our Thursdays and love your questions. So if you haven't sent one in yet, and you've got one on your mind about the constitution or some of the policies that are happening right now in Washington, DC, or even in your local community, send those to us radio@wallbuilders.com. That's radio@wellbuilders.com I'm Rick green, and I'm here with David Barton and Tim Barton, and foundations of Freedom Thursday is meant to dive deeper into some of those topics that are of interest to the audience. So that's why we let you guys drive the discussion with your questions. So thanks so much for sending those in. By the way, while we're answering those questions today, if you'd like some deeper answers, even beyond that, then go to our website, wallbuilders.com. Lots of great articles and materials, and then even full-blown courses that you can get right off of that website at wallbuilders.com, and then if you're just catching up on radio programs, you might've missed some earlier this week with our interviews or last week and. You can get those at wallbuilders.show. So wallbuilder.show and wallbuilders.com. And let's dive in guys. We got some great questions. Melinda's got the first one and it's on dual citizenship. She said, hey, wallbuilders team, first, thanks for all you do. Well, Melinda, thank you for thanking us. She said I enjoy listening to the program and the encouragement you offer as we are seeing God work in our country. My questions about citizenship. When I was young, I remember hearing that the United States does not recognize dual citizenship, now it seems that I'm hearing this term used frequently. Was I misinformed as a child? Does the US actually allow dual citizenship? If so, how does this work in regard to voting rights and the census, et cetera? Thanks so much for the opportunity to ask questions about our government and for helping average Americans understand the blessings we have as citizens of our, and then she said this in all caps, guys, CONSTITUTIONA REPUBLIC. So thank you, Melinda, first of all, for knowing we're not a democracy and that we're a constitutional republic. And thanks for a great question, guys. This is part of why I love Foundations of Freedom Thursday because I learn every week and I don't know that I've ever considered this question. I don't know that have ever heard this question, I'm like her. I, I don't remember anybody ever saying we don't recognize it, but I definitely feel like there's been a ramp up in the number of people I've heard, you know, be, you know, talk about being dual citizens. In fact, I remember even Ted Cruz when he ran for president, um, apparently has Canadian citizenship and American citizenship or something to that effect. So great question, Melinda. I'm tossing it to David and Tim, go for it guys.

David Barton [00:02:30]  Yeah, this is something that is not specifically addressed in the constitution per se, but it's addressed by a lot of statutes after that. And it's something that at least in the current era, it's become very popular to have multiple citizenships, dual citizenship. I was just got back from Armenia and I was with guys on that trip that had three citizenships and three countries. And there's a lot in Europe that really do this, they have an EU citizenship, their own country. And it allows them to move from place to place. If they think it gets real tumultuous in some area. So between Italy and Spain, for example, there are a lot of people who'll dual citizenship between those two countries. If one goes crazy, they want to move to the other. The same thing, there's a lot of people that have American citizenships. They don't live in America, but if it gets crazy in their country, they want be able to come to America. So what has happened is in the current era, and by the way, This appears to be a thing a whole lot growing, the trend shows to be that in the younger generations of Americans, they want dual citizenship and they're getting in multiple countries. The, the practice before that had been, no, you only get one citizenship if you're in America and that is America. We don't want people that are split with their loyalty between America and somewhere else. And so in, and by the way, even in immigration ceremonies to this day, you have to renounce all other citizenships to be to technically be an American citizen. But the Supreme court back in the sixties said, well, no, that's unconstitutional to be able to do that. Now it's still part of the oath. It's still a part of what you take is still part of the mentality and thinking. But because the Supreme Court said you can't enforce that, that's why you've seen a real growth in this. And so what happens is, you know, the American mentality was, look, we Bible says, a double-minded man's unstable in all of his ways. If you have a love for two countries. You're not going to have a real loyalty to one over the other. It's going to be whatever serves you best, not the country best. And so this has been something that really was not dealt with in previous generations because they never thought that you would want to be anything other than American. Everybody wants to come to America. And now you've got this, this movement of people who want to have all this, freedom to have lots of choices. And so just, I looked up and just some legal stuff on it. I'm going to read you a little paragraph on it. What it says here says dual citizenship had previously been banned in the United States. But in 1967, the U.S. Supreme Court struck down most laws forbidding dual citizenship. However, the US government remained disdainful of dual citizenship for some time. To this day, candidates for US citizenship through naturalization are forced, at least hypothetically, to renounce their previous citizenship at the US naturalization ceremony. The renouncing of one's previous citizenship is part of the oath that new citizens must make and failing to honor that oath could result in the loss of citizenship in the United States. Some cases that have been brought before the Department of State in the past involved people who became naturalized U.S. Citizens but maintained a residency and a life in their country of previous citizenship. While most countries recognize the oath of allegiance to the United States to a binding contract regarding one citizenship. Other countries have stated that the oath has no effect on their own citizenship laws. The US government used to aggressively pursue these cases to get the dual citizens to renounce their citizenship, but this is no longer the case. So what Melinda is talking about was she used to hear this thing about no dual citizenship. She's exactly right. That's the way it used to be. That's not the way this now and it looks like nobody has really challenged this in in decades since that 67 decision. Even though there are still efforts by immigration naturalization to renounce. And that is part of the oath to renounced the citizenships. And I did not look into see why in the world, the Supreme court said that you can't forbid dual citizenships have no clue, but I do see that as a 67 and that's in the midst of the biggest epic of judicial activism we've ever had in the United States when they were striking everything down simply because it was traditional and had been there for a while. Including religious liberty. So that's a really bad time to look at for judicial precedent because they were making up their own stuff on a regular basis. So that is kind of what I found on it and looking back at it and it is an interesting thing now that at least with the younger generations and with those who come in from outside, they want lots and lots of options rather than pledging loyalty or fidelity to one country or one place. 

Tim Barton [00:07:10] And at this point too, I think it's worth mentioning that  it would be very hard to put the genie back in that bottle, you know, this is the idea of, of looking at a, a court that was very much and to judicial activism back in the sixties, dad, as you mentioned, I mean, you know you can kind of go from when they said no more Bible, no more prayer in schools or the idea that burning a flag was free speech. You can look in the 60s and seventies and see a lot of crazy decisions they held, but at this point, because there are so many American citizens that have dual citizenship. It seems like it'd be very hard to reverse that but certainly to your point that was not the original intent of It kind of the citizenship status and test of becoming an American and again to confirm your point The idea that you wanted to be an American in something else has certainly changed in the last several decades It used to be that no, I'm an American that this is it. That's all I need to be in the last many decades where there's been so much anti-Americanism in education and other places, it has led people to have maybe a different perspective than they used to on some of this dual citizenship versus just proud to be an American. 

David Barton [00:08:23] You know, part of the thing I think here, too, is the mentality that goes with it is if you have a way of easy escape, then you're not likely to make as much sacrifice for something else. And so if America was your soul, love and allegiance, then it's I'm just make the example of a marriage. You know you have marriage, you get married to your wife. But just in case that doesn't work out, I'm going to keep a mistress on the side so that if marriage gets a little tough for me, I've got somebody I can run off to and be with. And that was kind of the the belief with no dual citizenship is look you can't have divided loves if you love the country You need to defend it and be able to fight for and do its right but if tough times get tough and you run off somewhere else you can maintain a nation with a Basis on if you're not willing to make some sacrifices when needed and that was a whole lot of the thinking which is why I don't think that they really ever did anything Constitutionally because it was just that was like That's like saying there's no force of gravity. I mean, that was ridiculous to even think about that. We wouldn't have even thought about that, and so it's, it's like, you know, marriage back then, it took an act of the legislature to get a divorce. That was a really big deal. And now it's so easy to do no fault. And so it was that mentality. And I think that that, that is not a healthy mentality for America. And that Tim, as you pointed out, that wasn't crazy judicial activism in the sixties and seventies, flag burning, everything else. Flag burning is not free speech, speaking is free speech. Doing something where you burn a flag is actions. Actions are regulatable. Speech is something completely different. And so the court just started making all this stuff up and it and the result of that was since the sixties and seventies is greatly undermined the foundations of America. And I think like you that this is another one of those policies that undermines fidelity to and loyalty to and therefore stability of the nation and it's it's not a good deal even though it's not necessarily unconstitutional this point i'm just curious yourself 

Rick Green [00:10:22] So before we go to the next question on whether or not this is, as you were saying, you know, this next generation wanting more choices, is that driven also by just the shrinking of the globe, basically, whether it's the social media connecting people around the world, or, you know, the technology, which I agree with you that that's not good for the patriotism and the fidelity to the nation where you are kind of leads to that whole kind of one world thing i don't mean that as a conspiracy thing but just almost a natural inclination and the travel is easier and so people you know this these young people go around the world more are those factors in this as well 

David Barton [00:11:03] Well, I think that's probably part of it just by when you look at even like the marriage numbers that exist today, particularly in younger generation, that the same level of commitment is not there. And so there's a lot more back doors, a lot of more escape hatches and so many things. And you see that even with the military, the military can't get people to stay in because the love of country necessarily. So we offer you a lot, more programs, a little more education, a whole lot more to get you involved. And so rather than the fidelity that used to be there for the nation, which is how we had been raised, it's got to take a lot more incentives now. And the trouble is that's good when things are going well, but what happens if you get in a period of time where you really need help and you need to defend the nation or something else is your allegiance there at that point in time. And I think that's, so this is something that we have seen over recent decades. Where that kind of deep rooted fidelity is not there to the institutions, whether it be marriage or family or children born in or out of wedlock or anything else. It's just a restructuring much, much more looser than it used to be. 

Rick Green [00:12:10] All right, guys. Well, next question is coming in from Kathy. She said, I listen to your program regularly, really appreciate all you do. Several times in the past few weeks, you've mentioned that the big, beautiful bill defunded Planned Parenthood for 10 years. When I looked at the bill, it says Planned Parenthoood is defunding for only one year, which is correct? Thank you so much. Kathy, I will be honest. I have not read the, how many pages is that bill guys? Because it is big. It was like 2,500 pages. Wasn't it? Is that, is that what I remember? Yeah, yeah, I tried, but I kept falling asleep around page two. No, I'm kidding, I didn't even try, I'll be honest. So what is the, have you guys had a chance to look closer at the Planned Parenthood thing? 

David Barton [00:12:49] Yeah, that question from Kathy is a great question. And it goes back to something I know I've said a couple of times over the program and Kathy alluded to is talked about how that big, beautiful bill defunded Planned Parenthood for 10 years. As it turns out, that's the way it was passed by the House. That's the where the Senate agreed to pass it. And that's where the parliamentarian of the Senate stepped in and said, no, you can't do it for 10 years, you get only for one year. So that was the parliamentarians change. That was not a change by legislators and the way that bill got voted out at the end from the Senate and then signed by the president, the parliamentarian would not let it be for 10 years. She took it down to one year. And so the problem is, and I was not aware, I knew the problem with the parliamentarians. I did not know that she had taken the 10 years down to one year, and that's part of why you need a new parliamentarian. They were talking about it even at that point. And that just reemphasized it. So the answer is yes, it is only one year it was designed to be 10 years The parliamentarian took it down to one year and unfortunately that's where it ends up and that's where it is right now. So that's what it is for the time being. 

Rick Green [00:13:57] Yeah. That was one of the talking points afterwards that people were really disagreeing on whether or not it you know the parliamentarians should have that kind of power and then whether or have to vote for the bill and all of those things hey guys quick break we got we got a lot more questions to get to but we need to take a break we'll be right back folks David and Tim Barton answering your questions on foundations of freedom Thursday stay with us you're listening to the WallBuilders Show 

Rick Green [00:15:23] Welcome back to The WallBuilders Show. Thanks for staying with us. Rick Green here with David and Tim Barton taking your questions. You can send them in to radio@wallbuilders.com radio@wallbuilder.com. Allright Caleb's up next. He said, my brother and I have been in deep conversation about the founding fathers and the foundation of the USA government. I'll just stop right there. Caleb. Awesome. Man, the fact that you're having deep conversations about the founding fathers with your brother tells me a lot about your parents as well. Anyway, we have found that some founding fathers, Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, Payne, Madison, write as deists and reject Jesus as Messiah. They acknowledge him as the greatest teacher, but reject him and the Holy Spirit. Is this true? Also, I have heard we were founded on biblical morals my whole life, but I am being told now it's more complex than that and we cannot say that because the founding fathers philosophy also came from Confucius and many other teachers that did not believe in Jesus as messiah. So can we then... Say that the USA was founded on 100% Biblical morals, or is it more complex? So guys, listen, I, before you even answer this, I just got to say, I don't know Caleb, I know his brother, I don't know what caused them to first have, you know, believe these things and then be questioning them in the way that they are, but it sure sounds like they've been off to college somewhere, because it sounds like you're saying not that they found this in the writing so much as somebody is probably giving them this perspective. It sounds like some of the you know, even suppose that conservative colleges, like a lot of the Hillsdale professors, tend to teach this type of thing, or certainly a lot of the quote unquote Christian colleges, tend to this perspective that we're hearing from Caleb. So, man, we could spend multiple programs on this. I'll let you guys try to summarize a response to this. 

David Barton [00:17:04] A few things I would point out first in framing the argument, if you will, to frame the answer. I'd say, okay, and I am really, really glad you guys asked about this. So Caleb, your brother, thank you. Thank you for asking. Yes, this is the right thing to do. See if you can get the whole story. You've got one side of the story. See if there is a different side. And then Proverbs 18, 17. One side sounds good to hear the other. Then after you hear both, you weigh evidence. You weigh facts and you see what the truth is and you go in that direction so this is a great great great great thing you're doing by asking so I would reframe part of it this way say okay the as you said we found that some founding fathers were deus and reject jesus and messiah and you list Jefferson Franklin Adams Paine and Madison. Paine doesn't rise to the category of the others the others were legislators who were elected by the people they held office of some kind some position, Paine did not hold that office. Paine was a writer. He was a pamphletier. He wrote some great stuff that motivated people, but he was not elected to any place and held no place in any of the documents. He helped shape thinking and that's great, but he's still not at the same level as the others. So let's just kind of put Paine to the side because he's gonna be the one that's the most hostile of everything. He is the guy who is most openly against Jesus and to put him in the same category with the others is not really even, it's kind of apples and oranges to some degree. Then the next thing I say is, okay, that's five names. And there's roughly about 250 founding fathers. So if we're talking at five out of 250, what you're looking at is you're right in that one and a half to 2% range. So you've examined maybe one and half to two percent of the founding fathers, and these are the founding father's that you will find some questionable statements from them at some point in their life. Jefferson orthodox most of his life. After his wife died, he went into a real emotional crisis, just shut down, wouldn't talk to people literally for weeks. He became in some ways kind of catatonic and he started questioning how can you have a loving God that lets my wife die kind of stuff. And that's where you'll find him writing some questions. Most of the life you won't find that, but you can find those questions with Jefferson. So even in looking at whether they rejected Jesus as Messiah, that's not even a phrase that I know of them using. They didn't talk about Jesus as Messiah. That's a Jewish, more Jewish phrase, more evangelical phrase that's used with Jews. But I don't even know of writings that deal with Jesus as a Messiah at that point in time. So for any of them to address that, not likely, but even pointing out that this is five out of the 250, you know, let's jump into somebody like a Benjamin Rush who starts Bible societies, who, who does tracks on how you need to keep the Bible and public schools across America, who does so many the same with Reverend Dr. John Witherspoon, who we're told from historians that he's the man most responsible for the economic clauses of the Constitution, but he is the president of a seminary and he is very open. He has books of sermons about Jesus and we can go through all these other founding fathers, you know, whether it's Francis Hopkinson or whether it is so many other founding fathers. Thomas McKean who is a he's a Supreme Court justice head of the Supreme Court, and he's the signer of the declaration, but head of Supreme Court in Delaware and Pennsylvania. And in his court, when a guy was convicted to a sentence of death for his treason, he stops in the court and gives an altar call in the courtroom, tells this guy about Jesus and you're about to die and you need to know Jesus. I mean, we can go through folks like that. We can go to Richard Stockton, one of the signers of the Declaration, and how he laid out for his kids as he was dying, how you need know Jesus, and you need to know the major doctrines of the scriptures, etc. So to be fair about this, if we're going to say the founding fathers rejected this, let's at least get a majority of those guys. And there's about 250. So five is a starting place. And these are the ones that nearly every critic will point to the point to these five and leave the others out of it. And if you're just going to look at five out of the two 50, it's easy to come to conclusions that will not reflect the overall validity of what those guys believed.

Tim Barton [00:21:13] Well, Caleb, I would actually ask some different questions in addition to that. So, for example, you know, wasn't it more nuanced than just they were influenced by the Bible or that America was built on the Bible? Cause what about Confucius? Okay. So here's the question who was quoted Confucian and where did those writings appear in any of our founding documents? Because if you want to see some research is done on this, there's a book called Origins of American Constitutionalism. There was a professor from the University of Houston, his name is Professor Lutz or Donald Lutz, and it took him about 10 years to go through, and this was done back in the 1970s, the 1980s, and he went back through approximately 15,000 representative writings was their projected goal to see what really influenced the founding fathers. And what he discovered was that the top cited individuals were people like Charles Montesquieu, 8.3% of the quotes they found in the founders writings came from Charles Montasque. William Blackstone was the second most cited individual. 7.9% of the quotes from the founders writing came from William Blackston. The third most cited was John Locke, 2.9% of the quotes came from John Loccke. Now this was looking at a 50-year period. It was that the goal was to go through 15,000 representative writings to get a really good feel for what influence the founding fathers, what were they thinking that led up to the American Revolution, that led to the Constitutional Convention, led to the Constitution, led the Bill of Rights, it led to forming and foundational things, the early years of our republic. What really influenced these guys? And so they said those are the top three most cited individuals, but the number one most cited source was more those individuals. It was the Bible, 34% of all the quotes they found in the founders writings came from the Bible. Now, the reason I bring that up is because if you want to go look on the list that he identified the quotes in their writings, go look for Confucius. And see how often confucius was quoted by the founding fathers and what you will discover is confucian was not very quoted by the founding father's the bible was the most quoted the most cited thing by the founding fathers and we can go through a very long list of the influence of the bible influence Christianity but again I would have some additional questions because you you mentioned five people that were all deists. I would ask the question, how do we know they were deists? Because of those five, Benjamin Franklin has an example. At one point, he identified as a deist, but I would pass the question. Where did he identify as a Deist? And the answer is in his autobiography. And I would say, okay, well, what did he write in his auto biography? And what you will discover, he said when he was 15 years old, he was reading some debates between deists and some Christian pastors. And what he discovered, was that the debates of the deists made way more sense to him than the arguments of the pastors. So he determined he would be a deist. And then you go down, like the next paragraph he said, but he realized that as he embraced this idea of deism that it led to so much conflict with him and his friends. And he saw people were treating other people so poorly that this belief system didn't have very good values and it wasn't very useful. And so he determined to go a different direction. Now, the reason it matters, this is the only founding father, you're at critical founding father that self identified as a deist. He did it when he was 15 years old. He found it's not be very useful. And he left it behind. This is the same Benjamin Franklin at the Constitutional Convention when he wasn't older man as the constitutional convention was falling apart. He's the one that suggested. That all the founding fathers should take time and pray for God to intervene to help resolve all of their problems. That's not what a deist does, and here's the point, is that even though those founding fathers you mentioned, they questioned the divinity of Jesus, none of them at any point in their life questioned God's involvement in creation. In fact, you can go look at the Pennsylvania constitution of 1776. When we separate from Great Britain, all the early colonies had to write their own constitution to Benjamin Franklin, help write the Pennsylvania state constitution and go look to see the oath people had to take before they were elected to office. Benjamin Franklin is the one credited with writing that oath and it required that before someone hold office had to believe there was one God, the creator of the universe, the rewarder of the good, the punisher of the wicked, that there was an afterlife where they would be rewarded for their behavior here on earth. And I say all of this because if he's acknowledging there's a God and God rewards and punishes people on this earth and in the afterlife, that's not what clarify. I'm not suggesting that Benjamin Franklin maybe was a Christian. I am suggesting he's not a deist, and those are different things and different thoughts. However, the vast majority of the founding fathers were Christians, and the number one influence on the founding fathers was the Bible. 

David Barton [00:26:00] And I would recommend you go to website wallbuilders.com. We have a lot of articles there documenting the Christian faith that founding fathers, if you want to book, get the Founder's Bible or get the American story, they're loaded up with actual documented quotes, the founding fathers on their faith. 

Rick Green [00:26:16] Yeah, David, you predicted my final question for you guys. What would be the best tool for people to get to dive deeper into this? Cause there's so many examples. You guys are just scratching the surface and it's such an important topic to cover. So once again, I want to say to Caleb, fantastic question. So glad you and your brother are having these conversations. So glad that you're diving deep and getting information from all sides. And share that information with others as you find it. Thanks so much for listening today, folks. You've been listening to The WallBuilders Show on Foundations of Freedom Thursday.