Rick Green [00:00:07] Welcome to the Intersection of Faith and Culture. It's The WallBuilders Show, taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective. Rick Green here with David Barton and Tim Barton. Visit our websites at wallbuilders.show. If you have missed any radio programs over the last few weeks, you can find those there at wallbuilders.show and share them with your friends and family. And then wallbuilder.com for all of our other information, all of programming, all kinds of great materials you can check out there. And that's the place you can make that one-timer monthly contribution. We appreciate all of you. They do that on a regular basis. And if you've never done that before, tell me you're not getting good programming. Where else do you get this kind of commentary? Where else you get these interviews, the good news Fridays, the foundations of freedom Thursdays, all that good stuff. Make that one-timer monthly contribution at wallbuilders.com David and Tim, Kelly Shackleford with us a little later in the program. Of course, First Liberty always lots of great work that they're doing. But now it looks like a victory at the Supreme court that wasn't actually their case, but they got a very similar case to it. And of course, they're winning at the Supreme Court all the time anyway. But we'll get Kelly on to catch up about this crazy gender ideology problems. 

David Barton [00:01:10] Yeah, it is a great win, and it does help Kelly and they're one in a bunch of cases anyway, we can talk about that later, but one of the things that I see turning right now that I've been looking for for 10 years is dealing with parental rights over things like gender and whether you really can't object to the whole craziness of gender stuff that, you know, we got a professor site that says 81 different genders here in America. I think there's 137 they identify in Europe, but this website in America. Said 81 from this group of professors and it's kind of like the craziness has been out there. And if you object to the craziness, then you're vilified and you're attacked and you, you're the one that's demeaned and that's starting to turn in a good degree and they're starting to actually say, no, no parents, if they object to this, we're going to stand with the parents and not with the crazies. And literally I was looking just before we went on air and I went back and 10 years ago, I started doing a presentation based out of Genesis 19 and judges 19 that was on the cases that were going back then. And they're pretty much the same thing. And, and, and both of those Bible stories, there's the account of what we could call LGBTQIA plus, but it's homosexuality and other stuff. And they just wouldn't leave the straight people alone. It's like you're going to endorse this. You're going come out and participate with this. We're not going to let you just live and let live. That's just not acceptable. And they've really done that for a number of years and they've gone after guys like Jack Phillips who said, hey, here's a bunch of people who are happy to bake you a cake, but I just can't do it. No, you're going to do it and the folks up in New York that had a wedding facilities and said, hey, here are a bunch other wedding facilities that will do homosexual weddings, but we're not going to know you're gonna do it, and it's like they had all these services available, but they wouldn't take them. They wanted someone to do them who didn't want to do. And so that's now starting to change with some of these court decisions. Where it looks like we're getting back to having the rights of conscience and that the two, three, four, 10, 12%, whatever it is, is not running the rest of the country and so Kelly's benefiting from that, but they're having some of these cases also, and it's just really good to see some of this stuff start turning in a sound direction and a logical direction and quite frankly, in a constitutional direction. 

Tim Barton [00:03:28] I think there's a lot of people that bought into the narrative that we should allow people to exist. They should have the freedom to live their life the way they want to. And let's all just be in our own bubble. And what we've discovered is that there's lot of that people that initially said they just wanted to exist and they wanted us to be tolerant of their existence. That now that they're not content with existing, they're compelling the forced participation. And if parents, for example, with their kids in school, or whatever the case might be, if people are reticent to want to participate in some of these sayings, the Bible clearly identifies as sexually inappropriate because the bounds of sexuality, according to the Bible, is between one man and one woman in the monogamous, lifelong union of marriage. That's the way that God designed and intended all sexual things to be. And so anything outside of that, whether it's a pornographic book that kids are reading in school or. The dynamic of different relationships where there is lots of those kinds of sexuality things. Again, when we were initially told they just want to exist, we have come so far in the last 10 years or so, and it really is great that so many people are waking up to some of this now. The reality and the political culture that we live in, there's a lot of people that are doubling down on both sides, with some people saying that this is crazy we shouldn't do it and then On the other side, there are people saying, no, we're going to make sure we do this even harder. We're going do it even more. And we really do see a reflection that not only is there a constitutional battle, certainly there's a moral battle, but also there's a spiritual battle in the midst of this. As people have faced, we recognize what Ephesians tells us that we don't wrestle merely against flesh and blood, that there's, there's spiritual components to this as well. And this is something that has been needed to be restored in the nation back to the Biblical moral foundation, back to a place where we, once again, can maybe follow some of the Ronald Reagan adage that we need to be a nation that honors God, and it does look like at least on some level, the U.S. Supreme Court is acknowledging that some of this anti-Christian hostility that's come out blatantly against parents and against believers in general is clearly unconstitutional. It seems crazy that we even had to wait for the Supreme Court to make that acknowledgement, but it does seem like we are hearing that more and more and more from the Supreme court, and that's really good news. 

Rick Green [00:06:05] Yeah, you know, we talked just, what was it Wednesday? Maybe it was yesterday. I don't know, guys, all the shows run together, but we were talking about how. You know, we've done better and better at going into each of these different mountains, areas of the culture, whatever terminology you want to use and had leaders going into these areas. We're talking about creationism yesterday and just defending science and that sort of thing in the legal area. We, we actually were kind of ahead of the game. That was the first era, one of the first areas that we started getting, you know allies defending freedom, first liberty, you know, Matt Stever and Liberty Council, all these different organizations, and now we're getting a lot of the fruit from going into that arena and actually doing a good job leading in that arena and having people like Kelly fighting at the Supreme court. And then of course, this particular case, as you said, Tim, I mean, this is just restoring one of those basic liberties. We talk about it in the rebuilding Liberty course, the need to restore parental rights. So these are fantastic, fantastic areas to be getting victories in. Let's take a quick break. Kelly Shackelford, we'll be talking about that victory when we return. You're listening to the WallBuilder show. 

Rick Green [00:08:08] Welcome back to the WallBuilders Show, thanks for staying with us. Kelly Shackelford back with us, man. Thank you for First Liberty and all the good work you guys are doing. Not only winning cases at the Supreme Court, but getting the Ten Commandments back up all over the country. You guys are just, I mean, it's miracle after miracle, man, thank you. Appreciate you, appreciate you coming on today. 

Kelly Shakleford [00:08:24] Absolutely, you know, and I don't know if you know the newest news, but the Supreme Court just granted one of our cases. So we got another one we'll be arguing this next term, and it's the first one on the right to share the gospel in a public park in maybe 40 years, so it's gonna be great. 

Rick Green [00:08:38] So that you you argue that sometime in the fall I guess and next summer we'd see a decision on it 

Kelly Shakleford [00:08:43] We're not sure the date yet, they hadn't said it, but we think it probably will be maybe around the end of the year, maybe around December, maybe even January. But it's a case that it's even hard to believe. So it's, it's guy that all he wanted to do is share his faith and they didn't like him doing that. So they actually passed a law to say, you can only, you can speak in this little area of the park and. 

Rick Green [00:09:06] When did you guys start practicing law in the Soviet Union? I didn't realize how we're doing cases in Russia, Kelly. That's interesting, man. What part of Russia was this in? It was in Mississippi. Does that surprise you? 

Kelly Shakleford [00:09:18] What? You're talking the Bible Belt here. I'm telling you. No kidding. And then it got, it got crazier because what they said is they said, look, you can't bring your lawsuit until you're done with your criminal to challenge the constitutionality. So he, he said, all right, I'll just pay my $300 fine. I'll say no look and tendery. And now I can challenge it. And they said well, there's a Supreme Court case that says that once you're convicted of a crime and you're in jail, you're not allowed to challenge the constitution of the statute. And he's like, no, wait a second. I couldn't sue before, I couldn't sue after. So we go all the way up to the Federal Court of Appeals, the Fifth Circuit, en banc, 17 judges sitting at once, nine to eight, they say, yep, nope, he never has the right to bring his lawsuit, and all of his first amendment rights are washed away. The Fifth Circuit said that, man. And so we're, hey, we're about to reverse them, because the Supreme Court took this case, and it'll be a great opportunity for really two things. Number one is obviously free speech, free exercise of religion, but the other thing is the right of every citizen to get their day in court to protect their Constitutional rights. 

Rick Green [00:10:21]  Hey, man, due process huge. We obviously under attack big time in the last few years. Remind everybody how rare this is that to for cert to be granted. I mean, this is you guys are what do this be like your sixth case before the Supreme Court seventh? 

Kelly Shakleford [00:10:35] Yeah, we've actually got, we had nine wins in the last six years and our record is nine and zero. Only the Lord amazing only the Lord. 

Rick Green [00:10:46] Well, the Lord placed you there brother for such a time as this I mean even all those years ago you essentially started this from scratch with a little list from Richard Ford and and and I mean all these years you guys have been in the trenches fighting these battles Sometimes you had cases that went nine ten eleven years from coach Kennedy to the crosses and so thank you for having the persistence to do this and the vision to realize you don't win these things overnight. Right now it feels like you're an overnight success, but it's a 30 year overnight success right? 

Kelly Shakleford [00:11:15] Amen, and hey, I tell you, the thing is, we just get to stand next to heroes. People all over the country here are standing for their faith, they're not backing down. Coach Kennedy went through seven and a half years. I mean, think of Erin and Melissa Klein. That case is still going 13 years. 

Rick Green [00:11:32] That's the cake case, right? 

Kelly Shakleford [00:11:34] Yeah, where they were told that she was fined for not doing a gay wedding cake, and we've been up to the Supreme Court twice and back down. We've had victories both times, but the Oregon still will not stop. And they've even left the state. They're now in Montana, and people went there to persecute them there as they opened up their new place. So I say that because, man. 

Rick Green [00:11:57] But Kelly, it's all about tolerance, man. You know, it just, it all about... No, I'm sorry, man, you were about to say something. I'm so sorry. 

Kelly Shakleford [00:12:02] No, it's just, these people we stand next to are great Americans, and I know that's who you're speaking to too, with all you guys do. It's the people that are learning the Constitution, that are in their own communities and they're standing their ground, and that's how we get our country back. 

Rick Green [00:12:19] You know what's cool right now is for so many years, people that they would cheer you on or cheer us on at WallBuilders or whatever, but they felt like, what can I do? What can I and now we're in this season where because of the victories that you had at the court, now it's opened the door for them to do things at the local level. So I think it's gonna be a really fun couple of years to take ground back in local communities. But let's go back to the Supreme Court. So you'll have that one in the fall. You just had another victory, this one on parental rights and. Imagine this, that a parent would decide whether or not certain information, sensitive topics or sometimes crazy topics would be taught to their child and they would have the right to opt out. How did this case come about and what part of the country did it come from? 

Kelly Shakleford [00:13:00] Well, it ended up mirroring the Supreme Court case, the Mahmoud case, but our case that we filed was in California. And it was, what they did is, they had a program and they literally in the training told the teachers, do not tell the parents what you're doing. And then part of the program they had as a requirement, the fifth graders were required to read a book to their kindergarten buddies. Asking their kindergarten buddies to question their gender. 

Rick Green [00:13:30] Oh my goodness. 

Kelly Shakleford [00:13:32] And some of these kids went home to their parents and they just said, I don't feel good about this. I can't do this to my kindergarten buddy. I just don't think this is what I learn at church. And dad help me. 

Rick Green [00:13:44] Good for them. 

Kelly Shakleford [00:13:45] So the parents went to the school and they said, what are you doing? You know, number one, you should be notifying us if you're going to do something like this with young children. And number two, our kids have religious objections, so we don't want to ever force anybody to violate their faith or their so we'll need a religious exemption from this. If you're going to continue this. And their answer from the school was, you don't have a right to notice, and we're providing no exemptions. 

Rick Green [00:14:10] Wow. 

Kelly Shakleford [00:14:10] In other words, our children, they're not your children, they're our children. 

Rick Green [00:14:15] That's their mentality. 

Kelly Shakleford [00:14:16] Yeah, children of the state, you know? And we had to come in and say, these aren't children of state. That's not the way American work. Their children are their parents. The parents are the one with the fundamental right to direct the upbringing and the education. Of their children, not even the most well-intentioned bureaucrat can overthrow a parent. But we're in California, right? We're in federal court with a Democrat judge, liberal judge. That judge ruled right. They said, this does violate parental rights. This does violate rights by not notifying them that you're doing this with their kids. And number two, certainly they have a religious exemption under federal law in the Constitution. So you'd think, hey, awesome, right? We won the Supreme Court case, real similar to ours. Mahmoud was the same issue. They won. You'd think it's over, right. They've just appealed. They've appealed to the federal court of appeals. 

Rick Green [00:15:14] First of all, just the fact that you did win at the district court level, Kelly, a lot of people, you know, they tell us we're wasting time when we go to California or Massachusetts or Oregon or whatever, and you continue to fight these battles. You know, David and I and Tim keep going out there and speaking and doing, we probably got more constitution coaches in California than we do in any other state. It just proves our friends Jack Hibbs and Rob McCoy and the others are right. You've got to keep fighting there and you can win. So is it the school district then that's appealing? 

Kelly Shakleford [00:15:38] Yes, the school districts is appealing. They figure, hey, they're going to the ninth circuit. They figure they got a decent shot. The problem with that is, you know, again, the Supreme Court had a case, the Mahmoud case, where it was the same kind of thing. They had Jewish parents, Muslim parents, and Christian parents all saying, hey, you shouldn't be grooming our kids like, you know these little kids. And they complained and they allowed them to opt out. Unlike the school that we were dealing with, they said, we will allow you to opt-out. It got to be so many parents, you know, that they said, well, we can't, this is just too many people to opt out. Maybe they should have figured that maybe there was something they were doing that was wrong. Get a clue, right? 

Rick Green [00:16:22] Like actually pay read the room. Yeah, how do you get them to read the ring? So this is so walk us through real quick how so you guys will do the appeal at the ninth circut. I'm assuming then argue the Supreme Court case and you'll just say hey you guys if you don't grant this we're just gonna head back and the Supreme Courts gonna say that's right. Look at what we just said in the Mahmoud case I mean, I think that's what's gonna happen 

Rick Green [00:16:42] Yeah, it should be. What's going to happen at the Ninth Circuit is we're going to be citing not only older Supreme Court cases, which we had, but now a brand new one that's just right on point. Rick, I always thought I've been focused on this issue for probably 37 years because I knew it's just such a crucial issue that divides our country from others. You know, these totalitarian countries need the children to be children of the state. And so these intermediary institutions like churches and parents, they get in the way of that control. And so parental rights has been a key and we got the Yoder case going back to the 1970s. We got the cases even going back to the 1920s that talks about the authority of parents. But we always knew there would be this battle eventually within the public schools because all the old cases were about your right to like not be forced. Into the public schools. You have a right to go to a Christian school. This was different. 

Rick Green [00:17:43] This was in the public schools once you've chosen the public school Or if you didn't have a choice to get out of the public if you're there you're ours now we get to do and there was 

Rick Green [00:17:50] And there was two sides to this thing, and I always said, look, we're going to win on the religious rights of parents to protect their own children. If there's something that violates their faith, they're going be able to protect their children. But what's a lot harder is you can't go in and say that one parent can change the curriculum for everybody else, right? And so I thought the idea of them, you know, getting notice or being notified when this kind of really sensitive stuff was going to happen would maybe be a tough field of climb. You know, look, I mean, we won in front of a California judge and the Supreme Court just issued a landmark decision that says you do have to notify the parents if you're going to do this kind of thing. So that is a huge, huge victory for every parent in the country because we all know, I mean we've done this for years, Rick, the stuff they push in through the schools and never tell the parents. That's now going to be 

Rick Green [00:18:45] Medical stuff, right? I mean, they'll do the pill, they will do all kinds of stuff without the parents even knowing. Whether it's the little kids and vaccines, or it's older kids and abortion and everything else. I mean they really do think the answer to the question who decides for that child is the school, the state, instead of the parent. This could end up actually affecting a lot of those other issues that aren't even just the gender politics thing. It's medical. Philosophy, it's all these things, especially 

Rick Green [00:19:15] Especially when you got younger kids like this, when you've got elementary school kids and the idea that you're doing stuff that really is not their age level, you know, it's not reading and writing, it's really propaganda and it's, really, you have an agenda with their kids and you think you're going to get away with it because their parents aren't around. That's what the court was saying, no, you've gotta notify parents. The parents are the authority here, not you, over their children. 

Rick Green [00:19:41] Kelly, it's an honor, man. You're a warrior. We appreciate you. Another victory. We'll be praying for this new one before the Supreme Court and get you back here in a while to talk about some of the other cases. I know you got a lot going on, man, you guys are just doing amazing work. FirstLiberty.org, folks, FirstLiberty.org. Lots of ways to help. In fact, you've got some things right now with helping to vet judges. You know, this administration, obviously the best administration we've had maybe in my lifetime on these things. And you're serving on that religious liberty commission. So there's a lot of ways right now. To gain ground and get big victories, you know, that will last for a generation. So websites, the best place to stay up to speed on all those things. 

Kelly Shakleford [00:20:17] Absolutely. Yeah, it seems like there's a new case every couple of days too. Right. We just got this big pronoun case where this one was fired from manager from Bath and Body Works because she used the wrong pronoun. She wouldn't lie about somebody's sex. So they're happening every day. And the good news is we're winning. So people need to have the courage to stand. If they do, we can win and we can create more precedent, protect more people. Good Stuff

Tim Barton [00:22:24] Nine and oh in the last six years, which is also astounding. It's, it's not like their lifetime record is nine and oh, no, this is the last six years they've won nine cases, the Supreme court, they've now had another case picked up. It really is remarkable. The, the favor God has given them, but also it does further indicate. Probably i would argue a lot of the history and heritage of the nation being rooted on so much of the moral grounds of religious freedom with a first member clearly lays out the free expression of religion. And that the whole point with the founding fathers are setting up at the beginning that the religious section of the first and most make sure the government could never come in and stop. People of faith from having an expression of faith so long as it was it. Violating someone else's rights in the form of human sacrifice whatever I be well clearly that's how Christians are doing and it's amazing that As Kelly has fought this fight for me and probably 30 years now over at first Liberty And of course, there's lots of great organizations that have been out there doing this, but we've known Kelly for Nearly all the time he's been there and to see the favor that God has given him and the open doors and now more and more victories. Incredible. But again, it, it always to me makes me go back and think, well, this is the way it was always supposed to be. Look at the foundation, the nation, that the religion of morality, the faith aspects and brick, as you mentioned with rebuilding Liberty, this is one of those fundamental things that has to be rebuilt if the nation is going to succeed going forward. 

David Barton [00:23:58] And you know, that, that nine zero record, hey, get to get into the Supreme court, it's kind of like getting to the super bowl. So a nine zero, record at the super ball. Now that's an incomplete comparison because there's more than one Supreme court case in the year. But nonetheless, it was like going to the playoffs and winning nine games in the playoffs. I mean, this is tough stuff they're doing when they get to that level. And it is absolutely amazing. And I go back to probably the first case they won six years ago out of those nine cases. That Bladensburg case where the court just did a whole paradigm shift and said, look, if it's historical and traditional, we're going to assume it's constitutional. And when you start applying that to things like religion and morality, then the whole table turns in a different direction. We're back to what we had been for 200 years before the radicals really turned it. I mean, I don't know that I've seen a Supreme Court case in my lifetime that has shifted the landscape so quickly and so healthily. Or in a healthy direction, maybe healthily isn't a word, but in a healthy direction is what we saw with that history and tradition test that the court came out with six years ago in that first of their nine wins. I mean, it has changed everything in America. 

Tim Barton [00:25:09] Well, that's speaking of history and tradition, if we go back. Before Webster's 1828 dictionary. If we go back before his, was it 1782, blueback speller, you were free to make up words and spell them the way you wanted to, so I support, I support. I don't know how to spell the word you said, but I support your decision to use that language because I understood that you communicated well. I'm with you. But it really is, it's fun to see the victory successes and now the standards. That have changed from what has been the last several decades, not changed from what's constitutional, but changing back to what actually was intended from the constitution as opposed to the way it's been for really most of our lifetime. 

Kelly Shakleford [00:25:51] Well, Tim, I know you had to deal with it your whole life, but you know, I've only been with your dad for 25 years and he still keeps testing me on those words that you're talking about, like loquacious. I still don't know what it means, but he would make me try to spell it on TV and it'd always be really embarrassing. So I still can't spell as good as a fifth grader, third grader. What was it, third graders? David, those tests you would give me all the time? 

Tim Barton [00:26:13] Those were elementary spelling words. Elementary, yeah. 

David Barton [00:26:16] Yeah, they didn't have grades. There were no grades, but it was elementary. So it was basic brick. It's easy. I know what my 

Kelly Shakleford [00:26:22] grade would have been zero. A big fat zero. Anyway, great job Kelly Shackelford. Blessing man. Appreciate First Liberty and all that they do. FirstLiberty.org folks. Go get signed up over there and keep supporting those guys in everything that they're doing. Let's keep having some good victories but we got to sow the seed. We got to water those seeds if we want to keep having that fruit in the future as well. Thanks so much for listening today. You've been listening to The WallBuilders Show.