Rick Green [00:00:07] Welcome to the intersection of faith and culture. It's the WallBuilders show. Appreciate you joining us today. Visit our two websites, wallbuilders.show. If you want to catch up on some of the radio programs, wallbuilders.com, if you want get some really cool swag and some good information and sign up for one of our programs coming up later in the summer or in the fall, we've got a lot of cool stuff coming up. So check all of that out at wallbuilders.com. And that's also the place you can make that one time or monthly contribution. I'm Rick Green here with David Barton and Tim Barton. And later in programs, Tony Perkins will be with us from family research Counci. David and Tim, we had, we have Tim Clary on yesterday, Institute for Creation Research. And before we were going live with the program, David, you were talking about, he had mentioned that they do this thing on the hundredth anniversary of the Scopes trial and you remembered some things about that, that, actual law that was challenged at the time. 

David Barton [00:00:55] Yeah, it was really interesting because most people who hear about the Scopes trial they often call the Scops monkey trial, they take it as a loss that the creation side lost. It wasn't that way. The creation side won, the evolutionists lost. Now it has appeared to be a loss for our side, those who believe that God made the heaven and the earth. And a lot of that is because the media picked it up and made so much fun, so derision, so much mockery of these backwoods people in Tennessee. Who don't believe in evolution. And it's the same kind of mockery we had with stuff like COVID. It's the the same kinda mockery we've had with how many genders there are. It's a same kinda of mocker we've been able to change your gender and everything. So what happens is they lost this thing legally, but they keep making noise like they want it. And I've gotta say, I did not find a record back then of any churches stepping up and saying, hey, this is an attack on scripture, this is attack on constitution. I just want to read to you. Part of what the law in Tennessee was, and this is part of why they wanted, but listen 

Rick Green [00:02:00] You're talking David. This is the law that was challenged in court. 

David Barton [00:02:04] This is law that was challenged and there was a progressive teacher, John Scopes, who said, Oh, I'm not teaching that I'm teaching Darwin full, full on with nothing else. The law in Tennessee said that you do not have a right to teach in public schools, a denial of the existence recognized by our constitution of the creator of all mankind. So what they did said, look, the declaration says that there's a creator, the constitution recognizes the creator. Our whole foundation of government is built on the concept of a creator who gave us rights, and you don't have a right to come in and say that that's not what we are. So it literally was a defense of the constitution and the declaration and said, from the very beginning we've known there was a creator and you can't come in, and just dump that and leave it out. And so here came secular progressives and said no, no, we don't want to mention our creator. We're our own God. We'll decide stuff. And so, to this day, most people... Think that that's a scandalous kind of thing that happened and they never read the case. They don't know what it's about. They don't the law that was at stake. They know the fact that the progressive, the secular progressive guy lost that case. The state of Tennessee won in court and it's all just twisted. So the fact that, you know, Clary was talking yesterday about going to Tennessee and covering that Scopes trial, it's really something that would help kind of reeducate a whole lot of people. But it really was a law trying to preserve original intent of the founding fathers and make sure we were teaching that government is not God, that God is God and government has to recognize God. So that's, that's the part of the trial that just rarely comes out that I think is really a crucial part that everybody needs to keep in mind when you're thinking about a creator. It's not a scientific evolution debate. That's not what it is. It's a debate over whether man is the authority or whether there's authority higher than man who has the right to give you rights that government has to respect. And that's really what the debate comes down to. 

Rick Green [00:03:57] Well, and guys, we talked about yesterday just with the, you know, you got to get the creation argument right for a lot of the policy and things downstream from that. We've always had that conversation with Ken Ham as well. Um, it's just a, it' just a critical part. If you don't get the Creation part right, you don't get that. There's a God part, right? So even the declaration that we keep talking about for the two fiftieth, we're endowed by our creator. If there is no creator, if it's all just from a big bang, well, then the whole declaration falls apart and the American system falls apart. So this is a really important subject. For us to cover, and of course, that's what part of what Tony Perkins and Family Research Council's always working on, teaching truth, teaching these basic foundational not only belief systems, but then how they affect public policy. And of course the Scopes Trial, I guess never actually went up the chain on appeal, but there's been a lot of cases over the last few weeks that have been decided all the way up the train to the Supreme Court. And Tony Perkin's is going to talk about one of those that had to do with the protecting children from Transgender Experimental Procedure. 

David Barton [00:04:53] Let me chime in on that. This case did not go up the case of the Supreme Court because that's back in the day when we still read the Constitution and knew that every issue didn't belong to the federal government and every issue did not belong in the federal courts. Good point. And that everything President Trump does is not to be reviewed by the federal judiciary. I mean, this is back when we understood that you have state courts and you have local courts and they have jurisdictions. And when they make a ruling, it doesn't go to the Supreme court. That's not their business. So you're actually talking about something back in the day when we still taught civics and actually knew what the judiciary was supposed to be doing. So sorry, that's a commentary. 

Rick Green [00:05:30] No, that's a great point and think about it. It was it was a hundred years ago So you did this was way before? The court micromanaged everything and we ended up with the 1960s and rejecting God and all those things coming from the court literally making policy for the for the whole nation instead of deciding the facts for the parties right before them and Applying the law to those particular parties really really good point We did get these the Supreme Court decisions the last couple weeks. Some of them we haven't even had time to talk about our cover. Tony Perkins will be with us to talk some of those. Gotta take a quick break. We'll be right back. You're listening to The WallBuilders Show. 

Rick Green [00:07:08] Welcome back to The WallBuilders Show. Thanks for staying with us. tony Perkins back with us from Family Research Council. Hey Tony, always good to have you, man. Thanks for coming on. 

Tony Perkins [00:07:15] Thanks Rick, always good to be with you. 

Rick Green [00:07:17] Well, you were talking about this Supreme Court case that is not just a victory in the culture war to get parents backs, you know, authority on some of this crazy stuff and stop mutilating children. But but really that it's a sign for potentially a turning point in the cultural for coming back to truth and getting out of some of these deception. 

Tony Perkins [00:07:38] It is, and it's a good story on many fronts, Rick, because what it represents is a turning. Because if you go back, and I tie all this back, and this is what I think folks fail to connect the dots to, at least the left does not want us to connect these dots, is that this all began with the redefinition of marriage. And so the onslaught of whether it was men in women's sports or, you know. Invasion of privacy in in spaces like changing rooms and bathrooms and showers or the the radical indoctrination of our children in our schools over this transgender stuff and redefinition of human sexuality goes back to the redefiniton of marriage by the court and you're back in 2018 or so we we saw this coming so we began to work with some other allied organizations to draw kind of a red line where we felt like we could bring enough of the society together where they would be bold enough to take a stand against the cancel culture. It was over the transgender experimental drugs and surgeries for minors. Because as you pointed out, kids are being, there's mutilation that's taking place of our kids. All, you know, experimental. We don't know what's going to happen with the use of these drugs. They're not made for this type of stuff. So we began in Arkansas. Arkansas Representative Lundstrom became the first, Robin Lundstrum. And then from there, we ended up with a total of 27 states. The last one, they're obviously in Tennessee where that court case, they prevailed in saying that the states have a right to protect children. But as you pointed out, Rick, I think it's much bigger than just this particular case. It shows what can happen when people are willing to say the emperor has no clothes and not shrink back out of fear of the cancel culture. So it's a culmination of many things, but in part, it's brave parents that showed up to school board meetings that questioned these policies, ran for school board meeting. But the encouraging thing, I Think Rick, is that. We can keep this momentum going as we have the opportunity to repair the spiritual foundations of our nation and use this as a teaching moment of how did we get here? 

Rick Green [00:10:09] Yeah, it really opens the door for a lot of people that we might not have been able to have that conversation with them 10 years ago, but they're kind of the Joe Rogan's of the world that are saying, this is crazy. We have gone way too far and they're beginning to ask what is truth? What is, what is, you know, what are there actually moral absolutes after all, and are there things that shouldn't, uh, you know, they don't change over time. And then they shouldn't be. Perverted in this way and so it's got it's gotta hold other crowd willing to pay attention so the opportunity for that you turn you're talking about it just seems to be staring us in the face how do we take advantage of it what's the best way to really lean into this. 

Tony Perkins [00:10:47] Well, number one, I think we have to go back to the fact that there is objective truth, there is transcendent truth, and the idea, and again I think the teaching moment is what I just did a moment ago, taking this back, how did we get here? Well, it started with the redefinition of marriage. Now we can go beyond that, back to no fault of divorce and how we began to redefine God's institution of marriage, but the further we get away from the revealed truth in God's Word and the moral law of God, which is written on the hearts of men, the further we get away from that, that's how we get into this crazy stuff. So this is a, this could be a rest stop or it could be an U-turn. 

Rick Green [00:11:32] And that depends on how we respond to it, right? And it depends on the, on the church, stepping up and season the moment. 

Tony Perkins [00:11:38] Exactly. And that's kind of what I think the Trump administration has given us as well. I mean, this is all kind of one thing. Either the Trump administration and the good policies we see coming out of this administration is a rest stop from radicalism, or it's a U-turn back to moral truth and to repairing the spiritual foundations of our nation for future generations. 

Rick Green [00:12:04] Have you been surprised by how blatantly strong the gospel message out of the White House has been. I mean the Easter message was death, burial, resurrection, solid stuff. The faith highlights or the highlight on faith moments as we do the 250th over the next year, you know, they've been willing to, we've given them all kinds of dates of faith stuff happening, they're highlighting it. I mean, I've never seen this much of an embrace of truth and and and telling those stories there's been such a rejection of it over the last few years maybe it's just the contrast is standing out to me but what are your thoughts you've been right in the middle of it right there in DC so 

Tony Perkins [00:12:40] Well, Rick, that's a really good point, is that, you know, a puddle looks like a pond when you've been in the desert. 

Rick Green [00:12:48] Yeah, that's right. 

Tony Perkins [00:12:50] But not to take away from what we're seeing, it is encouraging, but what we have to make sure is that it is not a mirage or it's not passing, but that there is staying power to And how do we do that? Well, number one, I think we have realize the role of the church. The role of church is to be a prophetic voice. I really appreciate a statement or it was actually in a sermon that Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. preached, it was called A Knock at Midnight, and he said, you know, we need to really, I'm going to paraphrase it a bit, but he said the church should not be the, it's not the master or the servant of the state, it is the critic, it is the moral conscience of the State. If we ever lose our prophetic zeal, we'll become nothing more than a relevant social club. And so the church has to be not what I would call in the current terms of never Trumpers. I mean, that's useless. This administration is doing a lot of things right, and we need to be there to applaud them and to praise them and to encourage them, but we also have to correct them when they're wrong. I mean I think you look at, there's some things happening that are not, for instance, I'll be very, one that's front and center is the Biden era policy regarding the abortion pill which comprises 63% of all abortions in the United States. That could be changed in a heartbeat by this administration changing the FDA policy. They've not done that. They could. But one thing the president is fearful of the abortion issue because of the 2020 midterm election, the 2022 midterm election. Good things, but we've got to lay the moral foundation while the policies of this administration is giving us the opportunity to do that.

Tony Perkins [00:14:50]  It's really interesting you say that I was just in California speaking at a church out there I've been to 15 years in a row and and that was our conversation at lunch afterwards what because this church it was so cool this church had had like three different American flags you know around the church and I said you guys aren't running from these people that say if you have the flag now you're worshiping America instead of God you're tripling down and showing them we're worshiped God first and we're thankful for America because we have that freedom to worship but that's where our conversation led was if we do this right we don't put Trump on a pedestal. We don't put an administration or America on a pedestal, we're salt and light no matter what. And we, and we, you know, like you said, we encourage and are thankful when they'd get it right, but we cannot be afraid to be salt and light when they get it wrong. 

Tony Perkins [00:15:33] And that's a challenge not just in our relationship with government, it's just a general challenge we have as believers to know that speaking truth is actually one of the greatest expressions of love that is possible. And so by speaking, and now of course it goes back to the heart motive, as Paul rights in Ephesians 4 that were to speak the truth and love. Are we criticizing an administration, and it could be any administration, are we doing it because we want to make them look bad, or are we speaking that truth because we them to be successful? And this will be the ladder, no matter who's in the office, because we've been called to pray for those in authority. So that we might live peaceable lives. And so we want them to succeed in doing what is right so that we may live lives that are peaceful and in an environment where we can share the gospel and the work of the kingdom. 

Rick Green [00:16:35] Oh, good, brother. You would love my pastor Jimmy Peru because he always says we speak the truth in love but we speak the truth because of love so if it's if we're speaking the truth because of love and I just embraced that when he said it I was like that explains what you just described. The heart part of why we're being salt and light. It's not just to, you know, put the salt in so it burns. It's actually have the chemical reaction of preserving the culture. So good, Tony. Thank you for everything, FRC is doing. A best way for people to get your government course, to get signed up and get their church involved in what you're doing, FRC.org, just go to the website. 

Tony Perkins [00:17:12] Hey, go to FRC.org, or the best way is to go to the Standfirm app. Then go to App Store, download our Standfarm app and all of our resources right there on the StandFirm app 

Rick Green [00:17:24] Look at you guys getting all, you know, technologically savvy and, uh... 

Tony Perkins [00:17:29] Cutting edge. We want to make those smartphones even smarter. We want make them sanctified. 

Rick Green [00:17:34] That's great. Tony Birkins, family research cat, so appreciate you, man. Thanks for coming on WallBuilders. 

Tony Perkins [00:17:38] All right, Rick. Always great to be with you. 

Rick Green [00:17:40] Stay with us, folks. We'll be right back with David and Tim Barton. 

Rick Green [00:18:50] Welcome back to the WallBuilders Show. Thanks for staying with us. Thanks to Tony Perkins and family research council for all the good stuff they're doing as well.  David, Tim, we, we had talked about this before we even had Tony on is just the fact that there's a special inflection point in time here. There's a, there's really neat attitude out there where people are more open to conversation. A lot of our libertarian, more libertarian minded folks are beginning to realize that that road leads to tyranny and craziness. And so they're starting to say there's gotta be more. So when even Joe Rogan says I'd rather have Jesus in the big bang. Then, then, you know, we've got people willing to have these conversations. So it could be a really good harvest time for America. 

David Barton [00:19:28] Yeah. And this, I think could be a real key decision because in this, you have a parental right involved in one area. But I think you're going to see from this that the court is willing to recognize parental rights in a whole lot of areas. And there's a lot of cases coming up the chain where parents are saying, Hey, I don't want my kids being indoctrinated with this at school or that at school, or whether it's genders or whether its bathrooms or whether it's porn in the libraries. And I think, you're gonna see a lot a parental rights start coming down from the court on this. So I think you're gonna see a lot more parental rights start coming down from the court. I think this is a good starting place for what's about to come. 

Tim Barton [00:20:01] Well, I think it's also interesting as Tony. Pointed out that this could go two directions. This could be the rest stop from the craziness to radicalism, or it could be an actual you turn back toward moral truths. And I think right now people are having their eyes open and go, this is crazy, but there's two options. You can stop going the direction of crazy town, or you can turn and you can go back a more moral direction. And this is where I think there's such an opportunity for believers. And one of the things that I see being more and more true all the time, Dad and Rick, y'all have lived longer than I have. And so this might be a very different perspective thing for you guys where you can be like, you know what, we've seen this several times in our lifetime. But for me, I'm looking around going, I don't know that in my comprehending adult life hood, I have been to a place where it seemed like more on point where Jesus said that truly the harvest is plentiful, the workers are few, right? He said, look out the field. It's white. It's ripe. It's ready for harvest. Let's go do something. And this is where I feel what we're seeing in culture around us, there are more and more people whose eyes are being opened, who are ready to have someone engage them with truth. And if we would be the good stewards, if we were to go and make disciples, this could be the moment that we see a culture, our nation turn, and start going in a more moral direction, recognizing what the founding fathers understood is our entire premise of a nation is built on the idea that there's a God, and our rights come from God. And by the way, the first paragraph of the declaration, where they openly acknowledge that that same God has revealed truth to us through the laws of nature, through His Creation, and through His divine word, the revealed word of God. And so God's already told us the right and wrongs, and we can look there and recognizing because He's real, and in our rights come from Him, and the role of If- If we can just restore a few of those basic things in culture, I think it's very possible we see the revival, the reformation and the restoration that we've been praying and hoping for. But I do think it is an interesting point that just because people are recognizing crazy doesn't mean that they're necessarily ready to go the opposite direction. It does seem to indicate they don't want to keep going the same direction, but is this a pause or is this going to be something we turn around? 

David Barton [00:22:35] I look at this and I think this is an opportunity, I'll tell you what I think, I've been talking about this a lot in the last couple of weeks, just to myself and others I'm talking with. But if you go back to the Scopes Trial, we started talking about that. And that Scopes trial, we won the case. It was a win at the court, but we lost the war. And at the middle, that case happened in the middle of all the Billy Sunday revivals where people were coming to Christ by the thousands and the tens of thousands. We had massive revivals going on. There had been the Azusa Street Revival, there's the Billy Sunday Crusades going everywhere, and it didn't make a difference in the culture because you had people coming to Christ, but there wasn't anybody dealing with the culture. The churches didn't step up and say anything about it, and we're at that point now where we're winning court cases, but if somebody doesn't take and start discipling with it, and I think that's the real key, a revival does not change a nation. Awakening changes the nation and awakening is when a revival becomes very practical and you start dealing with specific things and address specific things. And I was, I was listening to what Tony said about the emperor has no clothes. Hey, we've been saying that for several years, but now they're listening and that's the difference. So while the time is ripe, now you have to be able to address this. And I just reminded 2Timothy 4:2, it says, you have to be willing to rebuke and reprove and exhort with all long suffering doctrine. You got to be able to step up and say, guys, this is wrong. Let me explain it to you. That's the discipleship that has to happen. We're having converts now, but we got to get them into an awakening. This thing's going to last. 

Tim Barton [00:24:10] Well, and I think that's part of what Tony pointed out, too, that a church has to start speaking the truth and love. But part of speaking the truth, you know, one of the things that you have been talking about, I'd say, I mean, really, I've heard you say this a lot, but you've said it certainly over the last couple of months, talking and challenging pastors. One of the things we have lost in our culture, and we've talked about this big picture for years, I think at wall builders. The church has done a really good job of making converts, but not making disciples. And one of the things we miss when, when Peter in Acts chapter 2 gets up and, and he's trying to share the gospel, right? Tell these people about Jesus because they've seen these people and they think they're drunk, right. They're speaking other tongues and they're like, what's going on? And Peter stands up and he told him about Jesus, but he says that this is this Jesus is savior and Lord. And one One of the things that I think... The church has to get back to doing, especially for those inside the church, for Christians in the church is the goal isn't just to make Jesus your savior. That's important. He should be your savior, but he also should be Lord. And when he's a Lord of your life, that that is more encompassing in a biblical worldview and the way you live and the behavior and the interactions and too often the church focuses on making Jesus the savior, but not necessarily the Lord. And he should be the both of those. In every believer's life and I think that's part of what it means for the church to speak the truth and love we're showing This is how we live when he's the lord of our life. This is How we behave this is how we interact this is what our relationships look like that dynamics how we raise our families and what human sexuality looks like when he is the lord of your life. Here's the way your life should look and if the church gets back to that we can see I think not just the the pause of going toward crazy town But the redirect the 180 and the u-turn going back the other direction where we can restore morality and truth back in culture 

Rick Green [00:26:10] We got to take home message for me from from what you're saying is the opportunity is there and and of course we have the truth and people are willing to listen but like you said to him that doesn't mean they've they've chosen a new path so we've got to be good at apologetics we've gotta be good at talking about the gospel good at discipling and the church has got to find its voice and be able to speak that truth and love and if we do that then yes absolutely we can take advantage of this amazing opportunity but that means hey folks you gotta what goes to freedom of speech if you're not speaking what goes freedom of religion if you're not living it out let's all do our part. Thanks to Tony Perkins for joining us today. Thank you for listening. You've been listening to The WallBuilders Show.