Rick Green [00:00:07] Welcome to the intersection of faith and culture. This is the WallBuilder show. Take it on the hot topics of the day from a biblical historical and constitutional perspective, very hot topic today. Of course, the bombing of Iran by American bomber planes. Of course there was a lot of talk about the need for bunker buster bombs, but man, the Pentagon has done a phenomenal job of keeping this under wraps, no leaks. And then it ended up happening and no one knew until our fighters were out of harm. So definitely that is the news of the day. David and Tim, what does this mean? 

Tim Barton [00:00:42] Yeah, there's definitely a lot going on and there's still, I think guys, a lot to be determined. We know some details right now. There's a lot of people forming a lot opinions, some very strong opinions. One of the things that certainly seems to be the reality is a lot people forming opinions definitely don't have all of the information, which could make a significant difference. The people that are opposing it saying he's starting World War 3 and He wanted peace and this is supposed to be the president of peace. And now he's dropping bombs and certainly we all have a lot of thoughts and opinions about this. I think the overarching thoughts, at least in my mind, I think you guys would agree is because president Trump has shown himself so consistently to be a president who has been looking for peace, and knowing that he has Hegseth and JD Vance and Marco Rubio and people that aren't trying to cause more trouble and drama. It certainly gives me more confidence in the decision. He made more trust in that decision and the skepticism makes me think we probably just need to wait see what else is going on before we form really hard opinions 

David Barton [00:01:51] You know, one of the things that jumped out to me, and I may be the only one like this, but I started asking questions like, how'd they do that? I mean, this kind of precision bombing, this kind subterfuge where the, that really kind of nobody saw it was coming, and it caught nearly everybody by surprise to some degree. And so I started looking into even the technology of how they pull this off, which was kind of fun to me. So I'm gonna throw some out and maybe nobody else has got the questions I do, but I asked a bunch of questions and let's go back, you know, we covered several days with what Israel was doing. And one of the things we noted at the time was of those six nuclear facilities that Iran had, Israel was only able to take out three of them. Now, the other three were underground and the other they took out what they could above ground but they didn't take out what was below ground. And so the question was, all right, did what they take out above ground, was that enough to cripple what they were doing underground or are they still doing it we didn't know to what degree Israel had had stopped their program or if we just kind of interfered with it or or whatever and so it appears now from from what happened here and at the time we talked even last week about well you know the the underground stuff is going to take a bunker buster and is that going to be that we give it to Israel or are we going to do something with it and at the time I kind of thought we'd probably give it the Israel and let them do it and it really is kind of a surprise the way this worked out. But there is no question that this was a hand in hand collaboration with us and Israel, even brought out, on Sunday morning when they made it really clear that, that Israel went in with the air force ahead of time to take out the, the above ground tracking facilities that might've been used in our, our stealth bomber. So it was a, it was hand in glove kind of thing between the two nations. 

Tim Barton [00:03:41] Now that I was traveling mostly yesterday, and I have not looked at all the news articles yet, so there's definitely things I know. I've reviewed some constitutional thoughts that when you say that they said they're working together, is that the news media? Is that Israel? Is that some American leader, politician who said that they're working together? 

David Barton [00:04:00] That came out of the Defense Department that Israel had gone in before we got there and taken out some of their tracking facilities above ground to make sure that there was nothing to track us. At least that's a report out of Defense Department. Nobody's repudiated that, so that seems to be that – and Israel fully knew what was going on and appears to have really helped in that for sure. So it looks like it's a two-nation kind of operation to some degree. 

Tim Barton [00:04:28] Well, and even as you say, Israel really knew what was going on. And probably some people in Israel really know what was going on, but knowing how, how well they kept the secret in America. And now having reports come out about how few people it from the Pentagon to Congress actually knew what is going on that there was a report on Sunday about this being one of the really first missions. Where there was some kind of activity like this that it wasn't leaked to some capacity. This was the first operation that was highly Uh, secret contained, you know, highly guarded until the operation actually happened. And one of the, the interesting things about this is there wasn't a, a full briefing to all the members of Congress. Uh, certainly the word, the indication from the news outlets I saw on Sunday were saying that Democrats had no idea what was going on. Maybe there was a couple of Republican congressmen that did. Uh, but again, very few people knew. Which is one of the reasons it was able to have been pulled off very secretively until it happened in the announcement of what was going on so connecting back and probably somebody is real new certainly if there were any kind of israeli planes israel air force involved any level there were definitely some people that knew but this. From what we can gather from what i've been able to gather seems to have a very close garden operation in secret and apparently. And maybe the best way to keep the information from getting out, first of all, don't tell a lot of people, that makes a lot of sense. But then the fact that they didn't tell any Democrats also is very interesting. As if, you know, maybe that's where the league comes from, and not to be totally jaded one sided, because they didn t tell hardly any Republicans from my understanding either. Maybe a couple of Republican congressmen and leaders, but certainly Looking at what they were able to pull off and nobody really knew and in the midst of what President Trump was saying You know come to the table get peace We don't know what we're involved in those negotiations Marco Rubio I really appreciated when he said that part of the challenge they've had in the negotiations He said it's like they're in elementary school and they want to pass notes They want to send somebody to come talk to us and we talk to them and they go back and he said We're not doing that anymore. We're we're not gonna pretend like we're in Elementary school. We'll gonna have proper negotiations. But I think in the midst of that, President Trump has certainly showed that he's not that he is not a a Biden, Bush, Obama, whoever else that they're just going to talk and not do anything. And certainly you would think that maybe somebody would learn that from his first term where the Moab was dropped. And, you know, there were some moments that that give medication to this, but from what. From what we would assess, I would think, and guys correct me if you have a different opinion, it certainly seems like President Trump was trying to get them to come to the place saying that you need to stop doing the development of any kind of nuclear weapons. And from what I've heard from some military guys, I've been trying to pay a lot more attention to some of the former Intel spec-op guys, what they've been saying and a lot of them have been on news outlets, but people that are much more familiar with the military community. That maybe have some more understanding and perspective to give some insight on this. And what they have been able to identify from what was going on is not only is this something that President Trump probably should have done, but based on The information they're getting is, it seems like Iran was speeding up their nuclear program to try to make sure they could get it done before something else happened, which led President Trump to speed up his response. And now he's saying, okay, do you guys want to try this again? Do you want to come back to the negotiating table? Or is there something else we need to resolve a different way? 

David Barton [00:08:25] You know, one of the interesting things about it is Trump has made himself very clear in a pattern he has. He's not like most presidents has done. This is the 43rd time I've told you, and you need to get rid of that nuclear facility. He said, I told you once, that's all I need to tell you. I've said you once. And if this does not send a message to everybody else in the world that when he says something, you pay attention to it, you're not reading the tea leaves on this. And what we know for sure is that Mike Johnson was told about this. I would guess that probably. The Republican head of the Intelligence Committee and the Republican head of the Armed Service Committee might have known about it. But what we do know is that the military didn't even tell their own forces in the Middle East. So the American forces sitting on the ships over there, that got the, you know, defensive posture, ready to go, they didn't even know this was happening until after it happened. So it was great subterfuge. They took that fleet of B2s. They announced that they're flying over the Pacific and some of them turned the other direction. And went hit Iran when everybody was watching the left hand. He's saying, here's my right hand, but I told you. And so he's made it very, very clear on this. And the interesting part to me about this is that once he gets a knowledge of what's going on and what's right, he's very decisive with it. And so some of the stuff that he's done, this is such a clear message. And it's my opinion that I, and I got to say, I love that press conference he did. And that may be one of my favorite press conferences ever for several reasons. One, it was super short to is,  and this is just personal opinion guys, having been through the Jesus movement, everything else, that last part where he started saying, I love God and America loves God. And he broke into that kind of spontaneous thing that was not on script. I, that's what I have seen so many times with new believers when a new believer kind of falls in love with Jesus and they just don't know how to express it and it just kind of bubbles out. You know, the Bible says out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. And that was, that was not on script and it kind of bubbled out and he just kind of left it hanging out there. But back to the press conference, I think the entire press conference was for the purpose of China. I think that was a China press conference more than any other thing. It was not for the middle East. It was, not for Israel is for China. And one of the things that, that is, I, I think really significant, the only nation right now that is propping up Iran is China. There's no other nation propping them up. And so all the oil that Iran is producing, virtually the only nation buying Iranian oil is China. And because they are, they're buying it at a much reduced rate. And so I think it's a warning to China as much as anybody, get your hands off, Iran back away, let these guys fall. 

Tim Barton [00:11:03] Well, guys, one of the things that we often talk about is we try to approach things from a biblical, historic, and a constitutional perspective. And what I'm hearing right now from a lot of people... Uh, is attacks from a biblical perspective, is a tax from a historic perspective and even attacks from constitutional perspective saying this was unconstitutional, he didn't have the right, didn't the authority, this should have run through Congress. I think obviously when you take a break, we're kind of at that midway point, but I think we come back, we, we maybe ought to address some of the constitutional background for this. Was this something that he has the powers to do as president and maybe even if we time get into some of the historic which would give some of the precedent for this. And then certainly even a biblical thought on this. And if we have time getting to all those, but certainly from a constitutional thought, I have seen this a lot over the weekend. And actually sometimes with some pretty outspoken conservative voices, very well known, very well followed individuals that have been very critical of President Trump. So I think we really ought to address that when we come back from the break. 

Rick Green [00:12:06] Yeah guys, let's take a quick break. We'll come back, we'll hit that constitutional issue and historical, right? Because this is going to go all the way back to the Barbary Powers wars. I mean, there's a lot of history here. Nothing new under the sun. So everybody, take a deep breath. We will be right back. You're listening to The WallBuilders Show. 

Rick Green [00:14:27] We're back here on The WallBuilders Show. Thanks for staying with us talking about, of course, the big action over the weekend. And David, just one thing I want to add to what you said earlier, I felt the exact same way about the press conference. Just incredible. And it felt so. Uh, raw is the, it just real and raw whenever he was thanking God and talking about loving God, and then to your other point about this is a warning to China and the rest of the world that was, Karen and I had just landed, we were coming back and on a flight and we just landed and I was trying to catch up on the news and I, and I pulled up the, just caught the, a few of those comments that he made and when he said what he said about no other military in the world could have pulled this off, I thought, wow, he's not talking to Iran, he is not talking America, he talking to China, he was talking to He's talking to the rest of the world. He's basically, you know, laying down the law that, you know, be, be aware that we have this power. We're not afraid to use it to defend our interests. I agree. It is, this was way beyond just the Iran conflict. 

David Barton [00:15:24] Yeah, and one of the things I think is interesting too, and this may be China's collapse. You remember how Reagan brought down the Soviet Union was economically. When he got into that Star Wars stuff and we started building weapons that the Soviets couldn't keep up with, we literally, we outspent them because they could not produce the money they needed to produce the arms to keep up us. And so Reagan really won the Cold War by literally spending more than they could. But on the other hand, China... They're propped up right now. They have real serious economic problems. And one of the things is keeping them alive is the fact that they are buying oil at such a reduced price from Iran because of the boycotts. They're really the only one that's buying Iranian oil, busting the boycott. They're not part of the Boycott and they're telling Iran what they're going to pay and they are paying such a sub market price. So if oil gets shut down, coming out of Iran, if there's a regime change or something else and they stop selling to China and China has to start at market prices. We may see China follow the Soviet Union and not being able to keep up with what's happening in the Western world. 

Tim Barton [00:16:30] Well, and dad, to that point, I don't know that even Iran would shut down or would want to, or I don't think we would even encourage them to shut down their oil. But if they, if they change their deal with China, cause you're saying if they shut down the China or made China pay the right price, I, I don't think if they stop exporting to China, but if China has to do what everybody else does, and of course everybody, every nation can negotiate that they can navigate that. But if, if China is put in a different situation and, and I want to say, I saw over the weekend some kind of data, some kind of stat on this, that 50% of the export coming out of Iran, their oil was going to China. So China is by far the biggest consumer of oil. And that came from a post from one of the noted conservative guys out there, just identifying the impact it could have. But also because the oil has been under control of a very extremist terrorist regime, the people have also not benefited from the The natural resources of the nation and if there's a regime change, which president Trump was kind of called for over the weekend saying, Hey, that probably makes a lot of sense. That for the interest of the Iranian people that you have a regime changed. And this is a very important thought because the Iranian people are definitely not the enemy of America. They're, they're not the enemies of Israel. They're not. The enemy of the middle East, but there are extremists in Iran that are terrorists that have been funding terrorism. And those extremists have been able to direct what i ran has been doing and the people been subject to that and so. This is something that not only is in the benefit of the destroying of the nuclear capability facilities that's only beneficial to america or even just to israel it's beneficial. Do all of the nations in the middle east who don't want a crazy person have a nuclear weapons. But also it could be something that's incredibly beneficial for the Iranian people, especially if they have a regime change and if they do and they enter into more of a free market kind of concept where they are then able to sell their oil at much more fair market prices, it would benefit their nation in incredible ways and it could hinder and limit part of what China's capabilities are at getting it at such a reduced price to your point. But dad, let me, let me toss you this question first. We've talked about this off air. But this is something that there's a lot of voices out there saying President Trump did not have the constitutional power and authority that he violated Congress. And interestingly enough, we've seen Democrats and Republicans praise President Trump for what he did. But we've seeing Republicans and Democrats criticize President Trump. And there's some big conservative voices saying that the president should have gone to Congress, that this is an act of war. He didn't have the power of the authority. Again, we talked about this a lot off air. There's a lot of there's a lot of history, context, background, and even federal constitutional law on this. But what is the answer ultimately? Is it constitutional for President Trump to do what he did? 

David Barton [00:19:28] Well, and Tim, you're right. We've seen this go across the board on parties in the sense that you have Federman, Senator Federman is backing this. And this is a good move, a great move. But then you have Massey from Kentucky and Marjorie Taylor Greene from Georgia saying, this is really bad stuff. So you're having Republican voices criticized and you're have Democrat voices support and that's not representative of both sides. That's just some crossover. But the significance, I think that goes with what's happening here. When people say it's not constitutional, my question to them would be why is it not constitutional? Well, Congress didn't declare war. Show me in the Constitution where that's required because the guys who wrote that document, who put it together, did all sorts of wars where there was no congressional declaration. I mean, if you want to take the Barbary Powers War, which, Rick, you mentioned, we have 32 years of war without a declared war at all. There were several phases of that war. It happened under George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, all of whom were founding fathers. Nobody declared war. We had the same thing with the Quasar war with John Adams. A full out war with France that was never declared, but it was a full out war. So why do you say it's unconstitutional when the founding fathers did that? Clearly, that's not what it means. 

Rick Green [00:20:39] But David, I mean, you know, who are those guys? I mean we need to look to guys that actually knew something about the constitution and the declaration, maybe had something to do with it. Oh, wait, wait. You said Adams? You said Jefferson? You said this... 

David Barton [00:20:51] Guy? But see Rick that only matters if you follow original intent. If you don't care what original intent is, if you believe it's a living Constitution, then let's just make it what we conservatives think it ought to be today or we liberals or we progressives. But we are talking about historical precedent here for sure. 

Tim Barton [00:21:08] Well, but guys, it's also worth noting there is nuance in this because there are declarations of war and declarations of war do come from Congress. So what is the limitation of what presidents can do without a declaration of war? And add to your point that there's so much historic precedent, even from the founding fathers, when they were responding to immediate threats to the homeland, to the American people and they responded often with the approval of Congress, but without the declaration of war. And this is in very important because also you can look at presidential powers act, you can go to the 1970s, where the president can respond to an immediate act. And he doesn't have to get congressional approval. In fact, all he has to do is let Congress know what he did within 48 hours of him doing it. Well, guess what, when the nuclear facilities were destroyed, I don't think you had to alert congress I think the news media alerted the entire world at that point but again I do think it's worth acknowledging that there is some nuance in this because there are declarations of war. World War 2 America declared war after after pro harbor when Japan declared war against America we said okay we are declaring war against you and see you but then dad back up to your point. There's definitely time even from the founding fathers the guys who wrote the document. That they responded to immediate threats that were oftentimes in war-like settings and conditions without officially declaring war. So where is the nuanced distinction and difference in this and what is the guiding maybe thought or principle to say a president is right or wrong or when do you need a declaration of war.

David Barton [00:22:45] Yeah, what you see historically on this is if the war is going to take all of the attention and all the focus of the nation for an extended period of time, this is the only thing you're thinking about, like World War I or World War II or the Civil War, declaration of war. But if this is something that's not going to shut down the nation and it's not going to require the full attention of Congress and it has not taken the whole budget and it is not taking all of our resources, then essentially this is where throughout history, counting the founding fathers, have stepped in and said, hey, let's go take care of this problem, listen. And even if it's 32 years of war against the Muslim Barbary pirates, it was not 32 continual years that that's the only thing we did every year, all year. We had all of our domestic stuff still running. There was a two-year period of time where Jefferson really focused on it. Two-year-period of time where Madison really focused it. The other time was kind of attrition. It was kind terrorist attacks. But when it turns to this has got the full attention of the nation. And this is the number one problem we all have to address right now, then you're looking at declarations of war historically. That's the way it's run. So that's where I would draw the distinction.

Rick Green [00:23:54]  Yeah, this is not something that, you know, is clearly laid out in the Constitution there's a little bit of a dance here and I think what you just described is correct because you're really balancing the article 1 section 8 power of Congress to declare war but then the president's power under article 2 section 2 to be the commander-in-chief and of course logic tells us that the president has to be able to respond quickly, you certainly don't want even Congress to be over to run over to the Pentagon and say hey you guys have to do this or that even if they declare war it's still the president is going to execute that anyway and I think your description makes, makes perfect sense. And all those examples that you gave show us that historical precedent. So we're talking about going all the way back to the founders. About Reagan and Granada. We're talk about even Obama and Libya, and he even went past the 60 days that you're supposed to be limited to under that, War Powers Act or presidential powers act that you were mentioning to him. So yeah, I think there's a little bit of a dance here. Like, like Tim saying, there's some nuance here, but no question that president Trump is so far this side of that line. That could be crossed where you could question whether or not he has the power to do it. 

Tim Barton [00:24:53] Well, and dad, I know now where I'm going to rabbit trail on purpose, but it's because when this happened and we were hearing details about it, I called you. Was it, Saturday night, maybe we were talking and I said, hey, have you seen Top Gun Maverick and you hadn't, I said you got to see it because. When President Trump talked about nobody, no other, you know, Air Force in the world could have pulled this off. I was like, this is Top Gun Maverick. I know it's dumb, people listening, I get it. But then I know on Sunday you watched Top Gun Maverik, what were your thoughts? Did you feel like, man, I love America even more now. Our Air Force is awesome. What were your thought? 

David Barton [00:25:33] My thought was that Trump three years ago knew exactly what was going to happen. So he got Tom Cruise to do a movie to prepare the way for what he was going to do. That's what I thought is it was perfect. 

Rick Green [00:25:45] That's great. Well, you know guys I thought I saw a tweet from our friend Steve Days who said he said that when he landed on I think it was a Southwest flight I can't remember but when they landed the the pilot put Top gun music on over the speaker for everybody It was kind of like a you know, just a statement there So amazing absolutely amazing. Well, listen guys obviously a lot more to cover on this and and you know I'm gonna go back to what Tim said at the beginning of the program President Trump has earned our trust here in being the guy that can decide, you know, wisely how far to go, how far, to push how far pull. He's not going to want to keep us in a long war, anything like that. And he's not gonna want to do any more than we have to do. So I think he's absolutely earned our trust on that and giving him the benefit of the doubt here, knowing the intelligence that he's aware of and just knowing when to do what so we'll keep a great an eye on this. Obviously, folks will be talking about it. I'm sure throughout the week. Thank you so much for listening today, David and Tim. Thank you for that wise commentary. We're out of here folks, have a great evening. You've been listening to The Wallbuilders Show.