Rick Green [00:00:07] Welcome to the intersection of faith and culture. Thanks for joining us today on the WallBuilders show, taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical and constitutional perspective. It's the day after Memorial day. Just once again, I want to say how much we appreciate all those who paid the ultimate price so that we can even be free to speak our minds on the show today, hope everyone had a wonderful Memorial day and that you had a good conversation with your family about the sacrifice it took to make this freedom possible and then our duty to have an increased devotion to the cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion. Of course, that's what we talk about a lot here on WallBuilders is the things we can do to increase our devotion and to do a better job of preserving that freedom and passing it to the next generation, David and Tim Barton here. I'm Rick Green, David, Tim, and we got, we got a great topic today for exactly that increase in our devotion, making sure that we are protecting parental rights. One of the fundamental things that those who fought and died for our country believed in and was always a strong American value that the parents should be the one making those big decisions. Actually, I shouldn't say it that way, all those decisions for the children. 

David Barton [00:01:10] Well, you know, parental rights has been a deal since the very beginning. It goes back to the laws of nature, nature's God. You don't need the Constitution. You don't need a Bible to show that. All you need is to see what the declaration referred to as the laws of nature and so the laws in nature, you see that that parental right, the, the way that, that animals have the authority over their children. And they can sometimes have that in groups. You know, you have cattle and herds, whatever, but there's still one mama, one daddy, and they're the ones that, they that have that say. And so that's part of the laws of nature. Now it's also something that's biblical as well, very clearly biblical. And the Judeo-Christian understanding of what is the response of a parent is really different from many other religions. I wouldn't say that they're all the same on this. I mean, if you look even in other religions like where we've seen child brides, five, six years old, and that's a parent's right, that doesn't fit the biblical definition of parent's rights. Or we see where the young people are trained to deliver bombs under three, four, five, whether that was in the Vietnam War or whether that wasn't in some of the wars in the Middle East. We wouldn't say from a biblical standpoint that that's part of parental rights. So we have a very westernized and a very Judeo-Christian view of what parental rights are. And we've actually won a lot of cases on that in recent years, whether it was about vaccines or covid stuff or whether it was about parental rights over what parents want their kids to read in school or be exposed to or not exposed to. And we've had a series of that over the last 15, 20 years as America, you keep having the secular left push their agenda. And for people of faith, that just doesn't fit what we believe God wants us to do with our kids. So there've been a lot of suits and we've really won most of those. What we've got now is one of those suits has finally reached the US Supreme Court. And it's at the Supreme Court, but it's at the supreme court with a couple of options for the court. You can look at the court and say, well, this is really a religious liberty issue because you parents believe that genders are fixed and there's only two genders and you don't want your kids exposed to teachings in school that promotes something other than what your beliefs are. So that's religious liberty. But it also goes past that. It also is, hey, we think that we have the right to raise our kids the way we want to raise them. And we don't think the government has the right to indoctrinate our kids. And so that's the bigger issue. Now, a lot of times at the Supreme Court, they dodge the bigger issue, which becomes much more controversial, especially if the thing is going to shift the landscape significantly. And they go for the lesser issue, which they can do here, but we've already seen from this Supreme Court that they didn't dodge bigger issues like religious liberty. They didn't just whittle away at the lemon test. They just knocked that sucker down and gave us religious liberty that we haven't had in 60 to 70 years. So there's a really big case working its way to the Supreme Court, and we got friends that filed amicus briefs on this, and one of them is Mike Pence. Mike Pence is a good friend before he became part of the Trump administration, all the way back to... When he was in Indiana before he became governor, just a radio guy. And then he was a governor and own own into Congress, et cetera. And he has an organization that has done an excellent job of weighing in on briefs in really important Supreme Court cases, urging the court to live beyond just what the surface issue is. And think about some other things as well. And so that's kind of where we're headed today. But this thing of parental rights. I don't know, it looks to me like it's starting to gain steam even from people over on the left that they're not liking where all this is headed with the sector of progressive and education. 

Rick Green [00:05:08] Yeah, folks at home that are listening, all that noise you hear, we're actually on the road today. So Tim's in the studio, but David and I both on the roads today. So you hear a little rain where David is and you hear big diesel truck where I am. And trust me, David's way more of a cowboy than I am, but I got the big diesel truck going today. So anyway, so Tim, you know, this is actually one that cuts across political lines. You know, parents that, they care about their kids. They want what's best for their kids and I guess there are a lot of people out there that trust government to make those decisions for them, but you don't have to be a Republican or Democrat, conservative or liberal. To say, you know, hey, I know better for my child than some bureaucrat does for most people. 

Tim Barton [00:05:44] Yeah, and this is what we would consider one of those 80, 20 issues that president Trump has taken, that the American people overwhelmingly are on the side of parents should have a say in their kids and their kids' privacy and their kid's education. I mean, you can kind of go down their list and the idea now that we are at a place that you have people in government, whether it be education, government funded, government run education where they're saying, well, really we know better than parents and we're going to kind of control what kids are going to be indoctrinated with and we'll not let parents say that your, your kid has the opportunity or option to opt out of this.  I mean, it's, utterly insane, but again, this is where president Trump has done so brilliant and is 80, 20 issues. He's taken the side that the majority of people agree on and it just makes the other side look even crazier than most people have recognized them to be. Now, of course, we... Have been identifying how crazy some of them have been for years or decades. Because when you, when you march down this Marxist progressive road and, and ultimately your goal is the destruction and the overthrow of things like the nuclear family, of things like Christianity, and ultimately, maybe even the constitution, we could recognize the extremism in that. But most Americans have not been fully exposed to how crazy and woke this radical Marxist, progressive left has been. And now it is becoming more apparent to many that there is a far deeper agenda behind some of this intentional indoctrination of the rising generation as an example, and this is something that Rick, as you point out, it is actually a rather unifying thing in many ways for many Americans because the vast majority of parents and grandparents do not want their kids to be exposed to some of this radical ideology. And then, when you have teachers or principals or superintendents that are telling parents, we're not going to give your family the option to opt out from your student, whether it be kindergarten on up, to opt-out of some of this really sexually explicit material, sex education, or whatever it is. This is what's awakening parents in many regards to step in and say that we're going to sit idly by and watch this happen. And this is why Dad, as you mentioned, there's been many groups out there, political groups, conservative groups, Christian groups that have gotten very involved writing, as you mentioned in these amicus briefs, encouraging the Supreme Court to come down on the side of parental rights, ultimately of what we would say are inalienable rights. When the founding fathers identified inalientable rights that God has given us rights. Well, one of the things that's very clear in this law of nature idea is that God gave children to parents, not to government. God gave children to the parents and the parents of the ones that are supposed to be in charge of the upbringing of those children, and hopefully we do have a Supreme Court that will be very favorable in protecting parental rights. But certainly, Rick, as you mentioned, this is a rather unifying issue across the nation. 

Rick Green [00:08:50] Yeah, and as David was saying, Mike Pence has an organization advancing American freedom and Mark Wheat is the general counsel for that organization. They're very involved in this case and Mark's going to be with us when we return. Stay with us. You're listening to The WallBuilders Show

Rick Green [00:11:09] Welcome back to the WallBuilders Thanks for staying with us. We've got Mark Wheat with us, he's general counsel for advancing American freedom with a great article on parental rights, how essential religious liberty is to American freedom, but so our parental rights will one leave out the other Marc, great topic. Thank you for coming on, man. 

Marc Wheat [00:11:26] Rick, thanks very much for having me. Very much appreciate it. 

Rick Green [00:11:29] I actually have in my, in my book on, on rebuilding Liberty 12 steps to recovery. And one of them is restoring parental rights and you hit so many important points in this article. I am so glad you did this. And, and it's, it's a great reminder for us to say, Hey, parental rights applies to everyone, even if they don't share our particular faith or religious beliefs. 

Marc Wheat [00:11:52] You know, this case that is going up before the Supreme Court, we call it the opt-out, fake-out. Because parents were told that there would be potentially objectionable material that their children would be exposed to on the whole gender ideology area, and they were told that they could opt out. Uh, but then that opt out was taken away from them and now the fight is going on as to whether those parents had their first amendment rights to be trampled and we're expecting a Supreme court win on this related Religious liberties, uh, but we think that there's a broader issue here and that is parental rights, um, because there are still a lot of people on sort of the secular left side who might be very reluctant to try to pose a religious liberty objection when they should just be able to object because they're parents and they, they know that they are the ones who most love and most know their children, not some. That's some teacher or bureaucrat at a school. 

Rick Green [00:13:01] It's similar, Mark, and I may be off on this. You correct me if I'm wrong, but I, I saw some of this in the, in some of the COVID litigation as well, where we were able to win some religious liberty cases for individual rights to not have government control, what you were doing. But to me, it was so much broader than that. I was like, you shouldn't have to claim religious rights on this, this is an individual right to your own health, your own body, or your, your business or whatever it might be. It's almost like we default too quickly, I think, maybe because we think it's the best path or the easiest path to victory right now, but we give up some of the broader rights like you're talking, that's what I see in this argument. 

Marc Wheat [00:13:39] You know, and it's like a lot of individual rights cases are determined to be some kind, some form of speech. And we don't, we forget that there are also freedom of association. 

Rick Green [00:13:51] That's right, that's right 

Marc Wheat [00:13:52] And as in a case that to those of us who are who are faith full faith based concerns, yeah, we look at this religious liberty issue, but think about all the people who are captive to bullying from people to their left, who don't really consider themselves to be religious, they consider themselves be largely secular. Well, they have rights too, and I think that we should, as faith-based people, fight for their rights so as to not to be constantly bullied to put up with all kinds of nonsense that the left is pushing on them. 

Rick Green [00:14:35] Yeah. It's a, it's the broader rights of conscience, you know, that, that, you know should apply to everybody. And it comes out with some really practical, like in this parental rights situation, I mean, literally being the one to make the decision. When somebody says who decides, what's your child's, you know, when your child is going to be exposed to sensitive topics, for instance, you know the idea that, that we're going to hand that over to government officials, even whether they're from the public school or from the, from the city hall, you so, should be an easy answer. Should be the parent gets to decide that regardless of religion, right? 

Marc Wheat [00:15:09] Well, and you know, we don't quote Justice Elena Kagan very often. 

Rick Green [00:15:15] I saw that in your article, go ahead, yeah. 

Marc Wheat [00:15:17] This was this was something right home about yeah, he said during during the oral arguments on my mood she said I too was struck by these books on matters concerning sexuality I suspect there are a lot of non-religious parents who weren't all that thrilled about this

Rick Green [00:15:37] Exactly, not exactly. 

Marc Wheat [00:15:38] There is an unusual coalition between conservative Christians, Jews, Muslims, and secular liberals. And we should look at this as an opportunity to expand this area of liberty where we can talk about these things without having to go on some kind of government list as being a religious zealot. 

Rick Green [00:16:02] Right. Yeah. It's the same as, I think it was Minnesota. I can't remember the, the school district, but you know, the, the Muslims in the predominantly Muslim community and they were up in arms over this and they, they, or what was going on in the schools and what was being taught. And I said, you know listen, I'm, I've definitely a Christian conservative constitutionalist and I see Islam as a problem around the world and in America, but I will lock shields with these Muslims in up in Minnesota and I will stand right there next to them in this particular battle. And I think that's the way you have to approach politics anyway. You got to say who are the people that are siding with you on this particular issue and, and stand with them. 

Marc Wheat [00:16:38] You know, ultimately what will be, the foundation of America is to continue to stand for constitutional liberties. And to demonstrate to people who are new to our shores that these are really critical. And it's not just for people who've been here multi-generations, it's for new arrivals too. And that we should not lose those rights as parents that predate the Constitution just because we're being pushed by experts. 

Rick Green [00:17:12] We see it in, you know, in other, I forget it was a couple of years ago. I think it was, I think was Germany. There was a homeschooling family you know, that, that I think ultimately came to America, but you know those types of things, yeah,. 

Marc Wheat [00:17:23] It's illegal in Germany. 

Rick Green [00:17:26] And we, and we see that these other countries, we think that's, that would never happen here, but in reality, those battles get fought here all the time. 

Marc Wheat [00:17:34] Well, I mean, even in the United Kingdom, you know, the, the land of the Magna Carta, they gave us habeas corpus, they gave us the notion of a constitution. They are now arresting people on the street. If it looks like they're praying about something that is not publicly endorsed. So we have people praying across the street from abortion clinics. And if it looks like they're praying, rather than just standing on a sidewalk, they get arrested. So, so these liberties, even though they may be time-worn, every generation has to defend them every generation, otherwise they get lost. 

Rick Green [00:18:17] For everyone right like that was your point earlier that I thought was so poignant is this and listen if we don't stand for the principles and protect them when it's the other person that's being attacked even right even if it's not our particular sect or our particular group or whatever when you see that principle being violated. We have to stand up 

Marc Wheat [00:18:35] Rick, something we need to bear in mind is when you're trying to defend liberty, remember that the First Amendment is not there for popular speech. 

Rick Green [00:18:45] That's right. 

Marc Wheat [00:18:45] If it were popular speech, it would never be challenged. So where the First amendment challenges are is where there may be wide ranges of disagreement. But we know that that is the core of the American experiment, is to be able to share your views, share your... Maybe idiosyncratic views that will not have majority support, but that idea may eventually work its way through people's minds and think, you know what, you were right all along and I apologize. 

Rick Green [00:19:20] I love quoting Patrick Henry and his give me liberty, give me death speech. He started with, you know, basically said, I'll paraphrase, according to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate only in this way can we arrive at the truth and he didn't care about offending. He's I'd rather offend you than offend the great creator of the universe by not speaking up, ah, freedom of freedom of speech, free, you know, all of these things so essential to saving our country. And what a pivotal time. Do you have any idea what this was argued? What a month ago, should we expect a decision on this? Maybe June, July, what do you think? 

Marc Wheat [00:19:54] It's never clear how long it will take for the justices to release a written opinion. I would imagine that this will be toward the end of June or in July, but if it takes longer, that may be that we might end up getting a better decision because there's more negotiating going on among the justice. So, you know, sometimes a rush decision is not a good thing. I think if we allow them to sit back and think this through, maybe instead, you know, a religious liberty issue would be fantastic. It would be even better if it were parental rights. And the reason we say that is there was an Indiana case of all places in the country. Indiana that found that parents were not supportive of a boy wanting to transition their son. And so the child and family life folks intervened and brought the case to court saying that these parents were unworthy parents and that needed to remove this child from their, from their custody. So who wants to be on a list of, religious objections or objector, and maybe that be used as evidence that you're, you're an unfit parents. 

Rick Green [00:21:22] Yeah, I've seen it. 

Marc Wheat [00:21:23] This is why we're looking for we want these to be broader. 

Rick Green [00:21:25] It needs to be broader. It needs to be I've seen the same thing, you know, for years with the, with the vaccine issue, right? Where if you've, if you'd opt it out and chosen either not to do all of them or maybe even none of them that CPS comes in and, and, either takes the kid or creates all kinds of problems for you because you've done the research and made a different, come to a different conclusion for your child's needs than what the state is wanting to do. And, and so it applies to all of these things. It's going to be a really interesting one to watch. We'll certainly be following you for commentary when it comes out. AdvancingAmericanFreedom.com is the website. Mark Wheat, bless you, brother. Thanks for coming on, man. 

Marc Wheat [00:22:01] Appreciate it. 

Rick Green [00:22:03] Stay with us, folks. We'll be right back with David and Tim Barton. 

Rick Green [00:23:12] Welcome back to the WallBuilders Show. Thanks for staying with us. Thanks to Marc Wheat for joining us today and to Mike Pinson's organization for being so involved in this parental rights issue and David and Tim, as he said, making sure that it's, that it is broader than just religious liberty. I mean, clearly we're going to, we're gonna fight for that big time, but we want to make sure that we're not boxing ourselves in that you have to fit that box sort of like what happened in COVID where, where Amy Coney Barrett, she would side with you if it was religious liberty argument, but not if it were other freedoms. That the government was infringing on with regard to COVID. So I think it's really important this thing is getting framed right. Sounds like these guys are right on top of it. 

David Barton [00:23:49] Yeah, it does. And, you know, I'm certainly not a prophet, but I do think the Supreme Court will take the broader issue, not the narrow way out with religious liberty. They've already done too many of those for me to think that they want to do another soul religious liberty, they've done a good record of those in the last five, six years. So I think they're looking at something broader. I think there will go in a favorable direction on this. And I mean, as you guys even mentioned the fact that you have Kagan, Justice Kagan who seems to be sympathetic to parental rights. As a secular and as a liberal on the left indicates, as Tim was saying, it's an 80-20 issue. But I'll tell you, the one thing that concerns me about all of this is that if this comes down as a fundamental absolute right, and there is no application of the founder's intent to have religion and morality as the basis, then you are back to what we talked about at the beginning. You're back to the right of the parents to turn their kids into child brides or child prostitutes or child bombers or. And the only way that works is if you ignore the religious and moral foundations on which that constitution is written. And so if we get it to the point where we become a totally secular nation, then having these type of inalienable laws of nature and nature's God rights, it really doesn't work the way it's supposed to unless you apply that religious or moral foundation that the founders intended this to be. And hopefully the court's gonna do it that way. 

Rick Green [00:25:13] So really, David, you would say it's yes be broader than just religious liberty, but it must be based on the religious liberty aspect or the Christian foundation, the Christian, I guess even definition of parental rights. 

Tim Barton [00:25:25] Well, and I would say, too, Dad, if I can interrupt and maybe answer part of that regard, I would said the reason it has to be a religious liberty foundation is because that's part of the inalienable rights. If there is no God, there are no God-given rights. But the idea that there is a God, that is part of their religious understanding and the underpinnings of the nation. And so, therefore, it is part that religious liberty notion. Even if you are secularists, you have God- given rights. And, so, you know, Rick, as you pointed out in interview where you're seeing people, whether it is Christian or, kind of go down the slate of the Jewish, the Muslim, the secular atheist, whoever it is, we fundamentally believe that everybody has a God given right. And therefore it is the, the religious liberty of every individual, even though not all of them are applying it in a religious concept that is a God given a right that is being applied and should be utilized and should been defended. 

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