Rick Green [00:00:07] Welcome to the intersection of faith and culture. Thanks for joining us today on the WallBuilders Show. Father Frank Pavone will be with us a little later in the program. I'm Rick Green here with David Barton and Tim Barton. You can learn more about us at our two websites, wallbuilders.show for catching up on any of the radio programs you might've missed over the last few weeks and months, or you can go to our main website, wallbuilds.com now that's the site where you'll find the resources. You'll find out all the upcoming events in 2025. The summer is packed and, and the fall, frankly, we got pastor's briefings coming up. We got teachers trainings. We got all kinds of great opportunities. For you to get involved or to send someone to one of those programs. So check all of that out at wallbuilders.com. David and Tim, Father Frank back with us. Been a while since we had him on, but to of course, work with Father Frank- I think the first time I met him was at one of those pastor's briefings, probably, it might've been 20 years ago, guys. Maybe at least 15 anyway. It was a long time ago. So y'all, well, David, you've known Frank for many, many years. And then Tim and I, of course so much younger. Maybe Tim's so much. I'm not that much younger, but anyways, Father Frank

David Barton [00:01:10] Yeah, Father Frank is a great guy. He headed Priests For Life. I actually kind of started and got it going really caused it to grow into something significant because there were a number of priests number Catholics in America that were not pro-life as we've seen with Biden and Pelosi and others and so he was really trying to move that church back toward Christian beliefs and teachings and in the American side and did a really good job. And so so much so that this last Pope was much more liberal than and popes. Actually defrocked him and said hey you can't be a Catholic priest anymore so Father Frank still very very familiar with Catholic practices but no not an active Catholic priest at the moment. 

Tim Barton [00:01:49] Well, and dad, you probably remember more of this. I'm trying to recall it's because we talked to Father Frank while this was happening and it seemed like he was being told you're being too political.  You're calling out people's names for not being pro-life and that's not appropriate, which I mean is totally inconsistent with Christian faith and theology where Paul even talks about, right? If there's people in your midst, in the body of Christ that are openly practicing sin, that you should call them out! I mean, literally, the New Testament talks about this as part of the, not just Christian faith and tradition, like the Catholic faith and traditions, and I'm not trying to separate them from being Christian. I'm just pointing out that no matter if you're saying, well, it's Christian tradition or Catholic tradition, it is both. And he was told, no, you can't say such vocal things being pro-life because that's political. And then especially when you're calling people out for not being pro life. So, literally, he's being told... Stop speaking up for life, or you will lose your position. And he said, I'm not going to stop. And he lost his position. That's what happened. Not like where some of these situations where you see some of these pastors having these moral failings. No, no. Father Frank had moral backbone and that's why he was removed. Not for having a moral failing, but for actually standing up for truth, for biblical principles. And, and then even calling out people for having wrong positions. They said, that's not appropriate. Instead of saying, father, great job. We need more people like you. This has just been some of the reality of what we've seen from some of this church movement and some of The Catholic movement, they have not always had leaders that have been as vocally courageous as at other times. And Father Frank is one of the casualties of a leader who was not as courageous or principled as Father Frank. 

David Barton [00:03:45] You know, the thing that got me thinking about Father Frank for this particular program was, I saw an article that really astounded me recently. Knowing France, France I think is the most atheistic country in all of Europe. Last I knew, I think there were only two or 3% that believed in God. I think it's like 97% were atheists or at least ambivalent atheists, maybe not aggressive, but only about two to 3% believe in God and I saw this article that this last Easter, so we just had Easter. On Easter Sunday in France, they baptized over 10,000 into the Catholic church in France. Now that's a huge amount on one given Sunday in what is probably the most atheistic country in Europe, maybe even more so than the Soviet Union, which, you know, it used to be 100% atheists, they claimed, but I thought, all right, let's see what's happening in Europe. What is going on? Tim, you've talked about how... Young men are starting to come to the church in America. Maybe that's going in France, maybe it's a global phenomenon, but thought for sure Father Frank would be a good perspective to look at and tell us what's happening with the church over in France. 

Rick Green [00:04:55] Father Frank Pavone, our special guest when we return. You're listening to The WallBuilders Show. 

Rick Green [00:06:05] Welcome back to The WallBuilder Show. Thanks for staying with us. Father Frank Pavone back with us, Father, always good to have you, man. Thanks for joining us here on WallBuilders again. 

Father Frank Pavone [00:06:12] It's a pleasure. God bless you, Rick, and all you guys at Wall Builders. 

Rick Green [00:06:16] It just seems like there's good news everywhere. We turn young men interested in the word of God more than ever baptisms on college campuses, but not just here in the U.S. good stuff happening in France as well. 

Father Frank Pavone [00:06:28] Yes, in France, in the UK, in various places in Europe, there's been over these last few years a real upsurge. And I think in the last several years, it's been like doubled in France over the last decade in adult baptism. So what we're seeing is a return to the waters of life, right, that Christ has offered us. And, you know, many people speculate, of course, what's the reason for this? What's really going on? Something I've always said, and I noticed that a number of the articles on this pick up on the same theme is that, you could say this is true of young people, it's also true of adults, that we need meaning. We need meaning in life just as much as we need food and water and oxygen. And we're living in a world, and you and I deal with these conflicts all the time, that has explicitly rejected truth. If you reject truth, you reject meaning. And you know, you look at a woke culture that says there is no such thing as truth. We can redefine reality. A man could become a woman, a woman can become a man. A baby in the womb isn't really a baby unless you say that it is. It's all upside down, inside out. And after a while, the human spirit gets tired of that because it places on the human Spirit too much of a burden. We're not meant to bear the burden of being the creators of truth. God never intended that for us. And so people want to say, look, I want to rely on a truth that's bigger than me. I want rely on meaning that I didn't have to create all by myself, as if life were just one big creative writing exercise. No, I want, I wanna see what God has put into the universe. And Rick, I think that's behind what we're seeing here. People just clinging to and trying to find the source of truth and meaning. 

Rick Green [00:08:26] That is so good because you're right. I mean, that statement where there is no truth, there is no meaning, regardless of whether you're a young person, you know, you're in that 18, 19, 20, trying to figure out what's life about, why am I here? Or even if you're 50 or 60 and you've spent your life doing what you thought was, you know good for you or your family or whatever, and you're contemplating, well, if there is not truth and there is no meaning I've spent the last 30 or 40 years for no reason. And what happens after I die? I mean it becomes a very, you just be desperate, depressed. You're, you're looking, as you said, literally for meaning. So the lack of truth means the lack of meaning and so people are searching. And thankfully the harvest right now is just off the charts that's searching and now the freedom to speak, to, to share the gospel. There's just this real resurgence right now. 

Father Frank Pavone [00:09:14] When you look at the freedom of speech being so well defended, especially right here in America, what we do, of course, is affecting the whole world. You look at X as a platform, right? And just the backlash, the beautiful backlash that American voters have put in place against the cancel culture and the woke culture and the weaponization of government, censorship, whether on campuses or on social media or anywhere, or even in churches, it's a... You know, it puts a burden, doesn't it, on the clergy and the pastors. You and I both work with pastors, we try to light the fire in their hearts, right? And it's like, given everything we're saying, given the, I think of it as Ezekiel preaching to the dry bones, right, they got the dry bone there. And God says, preach to the bones. I say to clergy in my pastor's seminars, I said, well guys, if you've ever felt like your congregation wasn't listening to you, just look at the field of dry bones. You know, Ezekiel was in it. And the bones came to life. What I'm saying is now pastors should be more motivated than ever for a clear, full-throated proclamation of the gospel, in season, out of season, convenient or inconvenient, because when the Lord said that the harvest is ripe, that has perhaps never been more true than right now. 

Rick Green [00:10:35] Amen. Amen. And, and maybe even, you know, do a little bit of a, not a little bit, a lot of a burden and responsibility to say these people are hungry. They're looking for answers. Now is the time to speak truth and not miss this opportunity. Not, not just strike the arrows three times, but as many as possible. So that we can actually, you know, uh, reap that harvest and answer those questions that they, that they have, you know, father, I want to ask you about the, even though, cause you mentioned backlash and the weaponization of government. I mean all of the prosecutions of the pro-lifers and and all the things that happened over the last few years, it seems like that because the left went so far that almost it helped to bring about this harvest. I think it woke up a lot of people to go, wait a minute, I was okay with live and let live, but this is not live and live. And do you think that has anything to do with it? It kind of opening people's eyes. 

Father Frank Pavone [00:11:23] I think that had a lot to do with it. You know, there's a pendulum in politics where things have to get bad enough for people to say, no, no no no, this is not what I, like take for example, the issue I deal with all the time, abortion, right? So in the pro-life movement, it was the extremism of the Democrats on abortion that got a lot of pro-choice people to say, No, no this is for me. When they insist on abortion in the seventh, eighth, ninth month of pregnancy, when they set up an abortion van outside the Democrat National Convention, pro-choice people, I mean, most of the people who take that label, right, I mean, we don't acknowledge that any abortion is acceptable. But people who take a pro-choice label are usually... Simply saying that, well, you know, in the case of a necessity, there should be a little bit of wiggle room. It should be available in certain instances. But these are not people who are like the Democrat party or apostles of abortion. And this is where the backlash to, and I think this goes back to our original question, part of the reason we see that there's a surge in baptisms and a surge and in church attendance and what's going on here. I see it reflected in my work in the pro-life arena. In what I call, Rick, the dead end rule. And that is, if you go down a dead end road and you ignore the signs that say it's a dead-end, you will soon learn by personal experience that it's dead end. And it's like people can ignore the, the signs being the word of God, the teachings of the Christian faith over the centuries that yeah, hey, abortion is wrong. It's harmful. It's bad. And people can, you know, they can ignore those signs. Well, they're going to learn and they are learning by personal experience how devastating it is. And I think especially a lot of the younger people, you know, not only is it that their first pictures of themselves are when they were in the womb, but it's also the tears that they see on the faces of friends and relatives who have been through abortion and it's devastated their lives, then only devastate their babies, devastated them. And our young people are seeing this. And they're saying, wait a minute, this can't be a good thing. Look at how it's destroying my friends and my relatives who've been through it. This is part of what's happening. And this is gonna happen, and I think at an accelerated pace, with the whole gay and transgender agenda. Aren't we seeing it already? How people are tempted to suicide or their life just goes out of control. They can't have meaningful relationships anymore. And it's like, this is the dead end rule. And when you hit that dead end, you know one thing. That all of us need to know and remind ourselves of each day. You come to the conclusion, I need a savior. 

Rick Green [00:14:11] Amen. 

Father Frank Pavone [00:14:12] And if the clergy are preaching, we've got a savior, then what are you gonna see? You're gonna see more crowds coming to those waters of baptism. 

Rick Green [00:14:21] Ah, so good. That's so good I was thinking as you were telling that story, I was thinking about, you know, Joe Rogan and Elon Musk and all these people that. you know, three years ago called themselves leftist and they were totally for the agenda that said, just let everybody do whatever they want. And of course, Elon and his own personal life with his son and the transition thing and, literally says he lost his son,  you know, Joe Rogan with the wake up of, wow, this whole libertarian idea of let everybody, do whatever, they want has now led us to men and women sports and all this that getting to the dead end. And they're seeing that. So they're, they're not quite to Christ yet, but the path is there. And if the church is, as you said, I mean, if we're, if we're preaching the gospel and we're telling people this here is the answer as they get to that dead end, they are going to be looking for the U-turn, they'll be looking for how to get to the good stuff. So what a wonderful, wonderful time to be alive and to have the truth to share with so many, so many people, I can't, you know, and of course, as we said, you with the baptisms in France, the growth all across the country is just incredible. I can't let you go without, you know, we scheduled this interview,  obviously not knowing that the Pope would pass. What do you see for the, for the Catholic church, in this next season? I mean, I was,  I think you and I are close enough friends that that we can be blunt. I was pretty blunt on a program last night. I was like, you listen, this Pope was not good for, the church or for policy in my opinion. And you know to, to tell America we're being un Christian, you know, and, and to embrace the LGBTQ stuff and all that. And I think, you definitely had your differences. What do you think happens now with the church? Will there be a shift or I guess it does it all? How does this work? Does it all come down to who they choose in terms of where those policies will go? Or do you there's an awakening in the church. 

Father Frank Pavone [00:16:04] Well, both. The people in the pews have a lot to say, you know, in the Catholic structure, as you know. It's very hierarchical. The people don't vote for their, neither for their Pope nor for their local pastor for that matter. But that doesn't mean they don't have a voice and they should be raising their voices. And I think a lot of them are raising their voices. And I think part of the good news is the same people who went into the voting booths and gave us such a great victory November 5th. Many of those same people are sitting in the pews in the churches. And just like they rejected the woke agenda in the voting booth, they want to reject the woke agendas in their churches. Now, it boils down to these 135 or so cardinals that'll be voting in a couple of weeks on who the new pope will be. A lot of it depends on that. And my guarded optimistic, cautiously optimistic opinion is that they will choose somebody who's going to make a course correction, because this pope, I agree with what you said, he's been bad for the church. He's said so many things that, not just Catholics, but all of us in the body of Christ have been scratching our heads and saying, what is this guy trying to do? And I think the cardinals see that too. And even if, I mean, most of these men were appointed cardinals by Pope Francis, but that doesn't mean they think the same way that he did. Or that they would govern the church the same way that he did. I think they're going to realize there's got to be, there's confusion that's got to be cleared up. And frankly, there are some wounds in the church and division that has been caused that has to be healed. I believe, I don't think we'll see, you know, them go as far as another John Paul the second, although that would be a, that would be a blessing. He was beloved. 

Rick Green [00:17:51] I was thinking I was actually thinking that I was like imagine if Trump had a job both second like Ronald Reagan did right? 

Father Frank Pavone [00:18:00] But I don't think it'll be another Francis either. I think we're gonna get to some course correction and praise God for that and I think we'll see, look at that, 2025. We got a new president in the US, we got a New Pope for the Catholic Church and hopefully they'll be very much on the same page. 

Rick Green [00:18:18] Amen. Amen. Well, we'll have to get you back soon when all that's said and done and see what you think. But Father Frank, just so appreciate your work, man. We love working with you and knocking shields with you and teaming up on what's going on in the culture right now and just excited about the victories that are happening and the harvest that's there. And I know you're the same way we are. It's like press the gas, press the gass, this is no time to slow down. Let's go get let's go gain that ground back, right? 

Father Frank Pavone [00:18:42] Yes, amen. We love working with you guys too. Thank you so very much and looking forward to a lot more good things to come. 

Rick Green [00:18:49] Well, thanks for coming on. Good to see you. Stay with us, folks. We'll be right back with David and Tim Barton

Rick Green [00:20:01] Welcome back to The WallBuilders Show. Thanks for staying with us. So good to have Father Frank Pavone back with us on the program. And, David, of course, you know, I think I can't remember when you sent this article over and we set up the interview, but obviously it was before the Pope passed and, and, uh. So what perfect timing to be able to get Father Frank on this week, to be able, to comment not only on, uh all those baptisms in France and just the revival that's happening across the planet, uh but also what's going to happen with the Catholic church. And, and we need them to be a good partner. You talked about the life issue and Tim, you were talking about He had to battle within the Catholic Church. So it's no different than evangelicals and any other denomination out there. There is definitely a battle within the church at every level for these cultural issues. And it's gonna be really interesting to see what happens at the top for the Catholic church. 

David Barton [00:20:47] I thought what you guys brought out about the connection between Pope John Paul and Ronald Reagan was really significant, because now you got Trump and an opening for a new pope. Will it be that same kind? Because Pope John, Paul, absolutely phenomenal in what he did with world liberty and Christian principles and the backbone he had and the courage he had. And this is an opportunity for Catholic Church to step back into that mold and we'll see. And I've got to admit, as a Protestant, I'm friendly to Catholics, I'm friendly to Christians, I'm friendling anybody who'll carry the water on the Bible. I'm great with that. Within that framework, I don't know how the process works on choosing a pope. That's not my tradition background. And so I started looking, how's this gonna work? And how long is it gonna take? And how do we know who it's gonna be? And kind of a shout-out here to the Epoch Times, because they did a really good job at and then I got into it and fallen through. So let me kind of lay out because I'm not sure that most American Christians know what's about to happen and how influential that is for Catholics across the world. So it's a three-step process. Number one what they're doing right now is Pope Francis personal funeral arrangements. What happens with his body? What happens with his apartment that he lived in? What are they gonna move into for for the public side? And that's the second part is the public side. And so that'll be a multi-day funeral processions, kind of like when the president lays in state at the U.S. Capitol, this is the public side. So for several days, he'll be there in the chapel at the Vatican, and people all over the world be coming by and visiting him. And then third, about nine, 10 days after the public viewing stops, the College of Cardinals will get together and they're gonna choose the next pope. Now, the College of Cardinal's, interestingly enough, what happens with that? And it's interesting the College of Cardinals this time is actually going to have some changes from last time and this is because of Pope Francis's decisions he said there needs to be some changes how we choose the next next pope and it's interesting that what he did is he said we need to focus more on Jesus than on the Pope And so I'm gonna I'm going to lie and stay less days I don't want people coming to make a big deal over me It needs to me who's the leader of the Christian Church in the Catholic community, so to his credit, he did that well, and he did some things I would really agree with that took the attention off the pope and put it more back on Jesus. So within that, what they're gonna have is the funeral, a public funeral will start within four to six days, and then they'll get to the state of choosing the cardinal college and choosing the pope. So here's kinda how that works. Some 15 to 20 days after the pope's death, all the cardinals will get together. Now, here's the deal. The college of cardinals has been choosing the Pope since 1150. So we're basically a thousand years. The way it's working now is the way it has been working a thousand years. They started electing the Pope back in 1059, but the College of Cardinals started doing it in about 1150, and so what you have is in the College Of Cardinals about 120 Cardinals. Ten of them are out of the United States for the global Catholic Church. The current Pope, Pope Francis, actually added some Cardinals to it, so I think it may be up to 135 now. They will assemble. They are all allowed to have one vote, but only those 80 and under can vote. And you can't choose someone for Pope who's 80 or older. So you can vote unless you're a Cardinal 80 or under and unless the Pope you choose has gotta be 80 or Under. So that's what they look at and they have not elected anyone who is not a Cardinals in the last 500 years. Any Catholic can be chosen as Pope, but in the 500 years that the Pope has always come out of the College of Cardinals. What happens is the first day they start voting, they will have one vote that day. And you have to have two thirds of the college of Cardinals choose that person to be Pope. So as be two thirds majority, if they don't get that, then they will take that person out and move on to the next votes and every day thereafter, they will have four votes every day until they finally get one person where the two thirds up and can agree on that. And it may start with the nomination process and you'll have 30 people in there and they'll eliminate one or two or three or whatever. But it's got to work its way down to only one left standing. 

Tim Barton [00:25:00] Holy smoke. 

David Barton [00:25:02] Uh, yeah, that's the deal. 

Tim Barton [00:25:03] You got my joke? Did we get it? 

David Barton [00:25:05] I caught your joke. I don't know if everybody did, I did.

Tim Barton [00:25:10] Every time you said there's well, there's only one left that that's holy smoke. Holy smoke 

Rick Green [00:25:13] You missed the Batman part. You're supposed to play Holy Smoke Bat- 

Tim Barton [00:25:17] Well, I thought about it. 

David Barton [00:25:19] The other part is maybe the, do we call the other unholy smoke? Because every time one of these guys gets voted or it gets, does not become card, every time, one of those guys is not Pope, they will, they will show black smoke. So only when they get to the two thirds majority is it white smoke. 

Tim Barton [00:25:36] Yeah, and I would say it's not when one doesn't get it, it's when the vote is not decisive. Because it could be- Well said. Right, the person they're voting on might not win that time, but they might win two votes later or whatever it looks like. But, and by the way, not to derail too far, because I would love to, we're almost out of time, I'd love to point out, one of the things Father Frank talked about is ultimately what we are, beyond just who the next pope is, there's a battle for truth. And when there is no truth, there's not hope, there's no purpose. People are wandering and we are now at a place where more and more people are are searching for truth which brings hope which gives purpose and value and meaning and in the midst of a What is being considered a mental health crisis? No, it's not as much a mental-health crisis We're dealing with a nation as it is the absence of truth And when there is no truth the people perishes what the Bible tells us And so what Father Frank pointed out is we have to restore truth such a good thought 

Rick Green [00:26:34] Well, such great timing to have Father Frank with us today. It's going to be really interesting to watch. And of course, we'll continue to report on it here on the WallBuilders program. Thanks so much for listening. You've been listening to the WallBuilder show.