Rick Green [00:00:07] This is the intersection of faith and culture. It's the WallBuilders Show taken on the hot topics of the day from a biblical historical and constitutional perspective. You can learn more about us at wallbuilders.com and then also for previous radio programs, wallbuilder. Show, check those out today. Rick Green here with David Barton and Tim Barton. And, we've got George Barna with us today and, man, a study that initially, it's kind of, not, not great news when you realize how few people in America still believe in the God of the Bible. So we're gonna dive into that data and see what we can do about it. So David, of course, George does these in-depth studies, been polling, not just Christians, but the culture in general, but he really does dive into the Christian community to figure out what people actually believe these days. And of course he wrote a book with George a few years ago, U-Turn, about how to get the culture back to the place that we need to get it. 

David Barton [00:01:03] You know, there's a lot of people who don't have biblical worldview, but I'm gonna say this cautiously. That really doesn't matter for getting things right. It's we who have the Bible that ought to be doing that. I don't expect progressives to study the Bible until they first have a relationship with God through Jesus. So we that do have that relationship, if we don't a biblical worldview that's the biggest problem. It's not whether the country does, it's whether those who profess his name do. And it's one of the things that has always been really significant to me and I'm just going to, you know, throw a little piece out here for a minute, but I understand and I know because I studied the Bible that I will answer to God for what I do. I will answer to him for what I think I will answer to him for everything. I mean, he judges all my thoughts. He knows all my thoughts. He knows my thoughts before I think my thoughts, he knows my actions. He knows, my behavior, my beliefs, my everything. And so that's one. biggest things that I have learned to do is judge myself, because scripture says, and first Corinthians 11:31, if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. And I would just as soon have an easier judgment in eternity, which means I'm going to be a little stricter on myself than anybody else I'm going to try to bear down on myself. And, you know, we're also told in second Corinthians 13:5 that we're supposed to examine ourselves to see if we're in the faith. I mean, we need to do a checkup on ourselves periodically. I've always done that health wise. I'm really I believe my body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, so I try to keep my body in shape. And so we've always done a lot of medical checkups just to make sure everything's the way it's supposed to be because that's his temple as well. Not that he needs a physical temple, but that's just what the scripture says. So I've always said that physically, but it's important to do that spiritually. And so if we can get a biblical worldview, that's the biggest thing that's gonna help the country. And I'm sure, as we go through this, the numbers aren't going to be real good. They haven't been good a number of years. Only 4% of Americans have a biblical worldview, but it needs to be different with Christians. And I'm not expecting everybody in Congress to get a biblical world view. I'm expecting those that know the Lord and spend some time in it. So I'm just going to throw out a thought, man. Put out on your social media every once in a while and pick up the Bible and substitute the Bible for social media. And you may not know all the books in the Bible. A few that are just really good to start with because they're so practical and you'll instantly get guidance out of them for, Oh, I can do that. Or I should do that or my relationship. But if you take Philippians, Galatians, James, first John and Proverbs out of the 66 books, if you'll just get into that, that will start changing your thinking and the way we behave. And that's just really important. So George is good on this and I really appreciate all he does so that we know exactly where we are. but man. I hope people don't just listen to it. I hope that they'll take that and say, okay, now I've got to be the one to make the change. I can't just wait for everybody else to do it. And, and it's easy to do if we'll just all make a little bit of effort, 10, 15, 20 minutes a day, put it on social media for at least that long, pick up the Bible. It'll make all the difference in the world. 

Rick Green [00:04:13] George Barna is going to be our guest. We'll be right back. You're listening to The WallBuilders Show. 

Rick Green [00:05:23] Welcome back to The WallBuilders Show. Thanks for staying with us, George Barna. Back with us George. Appreciate you, man. Thanks for taking some time today. 

George Barna [00:05:29] Always good to be with ya! 

Rick Green [00:05:30] Well, when we had you a few weeks ago, we were talking about some of the good news, which is, uh, you know, just the, the dad on kind of the polling of, of where people are seeing the country going, why they voted the way they did all that. And of course we talked about the rot and the culture is real though. So don't, you don't we gotta be careful. We gotta be carefully to see this whole thing, you know, enjoy the good, right. And, and, and press the gas and win some of these, take ground back. But the hard work  of getting rid of the rot underneath the culture and restoring that biblical worldview. That's still got to be done. We can't lose sight of that. And so you've done a new study on that does not have good news at the end of this study, as far as I can tell. But it means the harvest is plenty. We need to go out there and take advantage of the fact that so many are hungry to get some truth. So let's dive in, man. What's the spiritual analysis of where we are as a nation? 

George Barna [00:06:19] You know, for years now, Rick, we've been looking at, what's the incidence of people having a biblical worldview? If not a biblical world view, what do they have? Syncretism. You know? What are some of the elements that we're missing in our faith, in our perspective on life? And so we thought, all right, let's dig into some of areas where we see the numbers shockingly low. The first of those we're looking at here is, do people actually believe that the God of the Bible exists. First of all, is there any kind of supreme being or deity or God? And then which one and, you know, what are we going to do about that? So that's what this series of reports is about. We're going to three or four of these. Then we're going dive deeper into truth because we know that Americans have abandoned the whole idea that there is absolute moral truth, that the Bible conveys truth, that God is the definition of truth. So we're going to dig deeper and say, well, how'd you figure that out? Because you're wrong. So that's where we're going in this first half of the year. 

Rick Green [00:07:22] And that, you know, for people that might think, well, but look at the election results and look at what Donald Trump's doing, da da da, most of what we're getting right now, benefit wise is a direct result of the pain they experienced from bad policies. They're really just reacting to the pain and saying, we got to do something different. They're almost a lash out of there's got to be a better way, but they don't understand why, which is getting to your, your point in your question on truth, they don't really understand what the principles are that prevent that pain from happening. In other words, how do you go back to Deuteronomy and get the blessings instead of the curses? So that's one reason. I just think it's important for people to recognize just because we're getting some good policies doesn't mean all the problems have been solved. The underlying cause of the pain in the first place is what you're drilling down on, which is do people even believe there's a God, that they have to answer for the good or bad that they do? And then, You know, how do we find truth of how we should be living life in the first place? So let's talk about the God factor. I mean, what is the what is the percentage of Americans that still even start with that common ground that there is a Creator, that there is a God, even if they don't believe in the God of the Bible? Do they even believe that there is a God? 

George Barna [00:08:32] Yeah, so what we found is that about 7 out of 10 Americans, 71% would say that there is one or more gods or deities or supreme beings that exist. And so they would say, great, well tell us about those. And what we've found is there are more than two dozen different gods or supernatural beings that people revere as having the power over them in this life or having power to change the things around them in this life. And what we drill down on and say, okay, well, well tell us who those are. What we found is just under six out of ten believe that Jesus Christ is God, 59 percent. Interestingly, fewer than that believe in God the Father, the God of the Bible. Four out of 10 believe that the God of Bible exists and influences lives. And then you've got fewer than that that believe in the Holy Spirit So then when you look at well, what do you make of that? What difference does it make to you that that God of the Bible or Jesus Christ and the Holy spirit exists? Do you worship them? Do you follow them and what we found was that only about half of Americans say that they worship or follow Jesus and again the context here is that you've Got 66% who consider themselves to be Christian. You've got a lot more than that, that half that actually attend churches, Christian churches at some point during the year. So yeah, we're down to 54% who say they worship or follow Jesus Christ. Only 34%, just one out of three, who say, they worship, or follow the God of the Bible. And the other thing for us to remember is at the same time that we've got those numbers. And that does not mean that's the only god or deity or supernatural being that they worship or follow. Because we found that there's a large proportion of those people who say, well, yeah, but I mean, I also follow and then any of these other 15, 16, 17 other gods that are popular out there. So it's really kind of a mix-and-match theology that we've got going on here. And part of why this is important and people have to remember this. Biblical worldview isn't just an ivory tower type of idea. Everybody has a worldview. Your worldview is critical because it's the lens through which you understand and respond to the world. It is your decision-making filter. So every decision that you make every moment of every day flows through your worldview. And if your worldview is saying, well, there's really no God of the Bible There's really no savior who died on the cross that I need to be worried about. That doesn't just affect what you decide to do Sunday mornings. It affects every decision you make, every moment of every day. 

Rick Green [00:11:33] Wow, yeah, I mean if you've got half, roughly half, a little less than half that don't even believe that there's a God of the Bible, obviously their decision making on whether or not there's a right or wrong, whether or no there's the right way to form society or that certain things should be legal or illegal is going to be totally skewed and different than what ours would be. But also, even those half roughly that do believe that there is a God of the bible that exists, but then there's these other gods or these other things that would influence them. So even in the half that we would identify as quote unquote fellow believers, even the meaning of that is going to be very different because if they do think there's, oh, there's other ways to do things that are just as good, they're not going to before, you know, the kind of policies that we would say would, would make a good society. So we've got work to do within our own ranks of those. We would call quote unquote believers to strengthen an increased biblical worldview. And then of course, you know, being evangelical and, and hopefully having revival and some of those that don't believe in God yet come into that side. So it sounds like a lot of work to do. Let's go to the half that are supposed to be our team, right? That are supposed be our fellow believers. What, what kind of work do we have to do there? If, if less than half of them. Well, actually let's break it down. So there's roughly half that believe in the God of the Bible. So now break that down for us. Where do we target in that group with some, you know, ways to move them into the right category? 

George Barna [00:12:58] Yeah, it's actually four out of ten who would say that they believe in the God of the Bible. 

Rick Green [00:13:03] Wow, so 40 percent. 

George Barna [00:13:04] I mean, it's a minority at this point, which is shocking, because if I go back historically in my data, I mean we're coming from at one point more than nine out of 10 Americans saying that they believed in the God or the Bible. And now we've dropped all this way. And, you know, the fastest growing group, by the way, are those who say, well, there's no spiritual authority. The whole spiritual domain is just whack. I mean you can't trust any of it. It doesn't really exist. It's all in your head. So that's growing quickly. Where is that growing? Well, it's not just younger people, although it's growing quickly there. It's also growing in middle-aged and older people. So how do we deal with this? Well the people who say they do believe in that God of the Bible, you've got only about four out of ten, a little less than four out ten of the four out 10, who would say that God is the most important element of their life. So to me, that's an interesting starting place. It's like, well, wait a minute, he created you. He rules all things. He's the definition of truth. He's all knowing he's all powerful, but for you, he's not the most important element in your life.  Maybe we should start there and try to think about, well. Just what is the most important thing. And what we find with many of them is, well it's me because he may have created me, but he's actually no longer concerned about me concerned about my life. He doesn't get involved in the details. He's not really watching everything that's going on. So really it's all up to me. And that's how then we start backing into these ideas of, so therefore I'm the only one who can know what truth is for my life. God's turned sideways, he's not looking. He's left it up to me. I'm incredibly important, and therefore I need to figure it all out. 

Rick Green [00:14:54] So I just, or he just wants me to be happy, George. He just wants to be to be happy. So I should do whatever feels good. God would want that for me. That's another one of the lies out there. 

George Barna [00:15:04] It is. And when we talk with Americans, that is the highest purpose in life for most Americans. So again, another of the lies that we've been manipulated into believing, and we're buying into it deeper and deeper every day, culturally speaking. So yeah, we've got to address that. There's another thing we found that only about three quarters of the people who believe in the God of the Bible would say that God's involved in every moment of life. But then there's, again, a gradation there of, well, how involved is He? You know, for the most part, again the feeling is, He's kind of trusting me here. It's like we're co-god, you know, and he may have created me, he may have all the power, but he's given a bunch of it to me and he's trusting me to do what's right. That would certainly indicate he's not all-knowing and all-powerful. But we've got that, and then we look at, do you have a close spiritual relationship with that God. And again, we find enormous numbers of people who believe in the God of the Bible and His existence and His potential influence in lives would say, no, they don't have that deeper relationship. There's about one out of five who believe the God in the Bible who say they have an intimate and interactive spiritual relationship with Him. That's great. That is where you want to be. 

Rick Green [00:16:28] That's one at one out of five of the four out of 10, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we got, so that's really your core. That's your Gideon 300. It would that be your, like, these are the ones you can start with to strengthen their, well, I guess, actually, I'm wondering if you drill down even further from that, then do you, do they take that and influence the culture around them one out five that are the of the 4 out of ten, right. 

George Barna [00:16:55] Yeah, you can even go sideways on that one and say, okay, so you believe in the God of the Bible and you say you have an intimate relationship with him. You know, let's look at, Hey, is he Lord, Lord and the savior, you know, is Jesus Christ? Yeah, that's fine. You lose some of those people there. You look at do you believe the Bible contains truth that's relevant and reliable for your life? Well, you lose a whole bunch there. You know so as you keep drilling down into these core parts of your philosophy of life, your world view, they're dropping out like flies that are just tired from flying on their own. 

Rick Green [00:17:30] Okay, so let me go back to my Gideon analogy then so maybe the one out of five of the four out of ten That's the ten thousand that Gideons took down to the water And so out of that is there three percent, right? The 300 is there 3% of the one-out-of-five of the 4 out of 10 that are your warriors, right your your yes I haven't I believe in God of the Bible. Yes. I have an intimate relationship with him and it affects everything in my life He's truly Lord over my life therefore I'll follow the biblical commands on how to treat my neighbor. Give me some hope man. Is there is there that? 

George Barna [00:18:05] Yeah, yeah, we do have that. And it is 4%. Those are the 4% who have a biblical worldview. The group we call Integrated Disciples, why do we call them that? Because they've integrated God's truth into every dimension of their life and said, this is what needs to rule my decision-making. 

Rick Green [00:18:23] Now that's 4% of the one out of five or that's four percent of the country. 

George Barna [00:18:27] of the country. 

Rick Green [00:18:28] Oh, that's really hopeful! Yeah, yeah. That's really hopeful, yeah! 

George Barna [00:18:32] So, you know, if you're looking at 256 million adults in America, that's more than 10 million people that we've got throughout the country who get it. Now, I will say I'm doing a big research project right now on discipleship in America. And one of the things that we're finding is that pretty much all the people who would qualify as disciples have a biblical worldview. Well, it makes sense because what does the disciple do? They follow the master. So how do you follow the Master? first you got to think like the master so that you can then behave like the master. Because you do what you believe. So you got to think it first, then you'll do it because you believe it. And so we've got actually four percent who have a biblical worldview, two to three percent adults who are actual disciples of Jesus, going back to the six factors that Jesus gave us in the scriptures of what makes somebody a disciple. So I mean it's all true. You know, everything that Jesus said we can see it's and true. And how does he transform a culture? You look through the Old Testament when he would go in and he'd wipe out a culture and start over again. What did he use? What he calls a remnant, and that's what these integrated disciples are. They are the remnant. Do we have the remnant to make it happen? We absolutely do. 

Rick Green [00:19:48] Okay, so let me ask you about that two or 3% of those adults there, those integrated disciples, then do we know if they have the specific, do they understand how then culturally to make a difference or are they, they're willing, but they still need the equipping and the training of the specific things they can do in their community and their, and their country. Does that make sense? the question I'm asking is 

George Barna [00:20:14] I'm asking it does absolutely. That's one of the reasons I'm doing the research is to answer that very question. How did we get down to such small numbers? I know God doesn't need a majority to transform a culture, but couldn't we give him a bigger hand, you know? And so yeah, I think what it comes down to are two things the two M's here one is motivation they need to be motivated to say, you know what, I don't care if I lose everything. I'm gonna do this because that's what I've been called to. And then secondly, it's modeling. Part of the reason they're not doing it is because they haven't seen anybody do it. They look around and they don't see people doing it. And so they don t know how to do it, so yeah, I mean, one of the truths that I'm finding in the current research is the only people who can make disciples are disciples. Because it turns out you reproduce who you are. You can't give people something you don't have, right? So you're going to give them who you are, what you are, what you know, what you do. So you are going to reproduce yourself. And so in the end, then you've got to be modeling the Christian life for other people because they're going to observe that as, Oh, okay. I see it. We've got to see it, it's not just about hearing sermons. It's not just about reading the Bible. It's about going and doing it, but how do you know what that looks like? How do you how to do it? And having that mentor who's going to take you by the hand and say, look, this is where we're going. This is why we're there. This is how we're gonna get there. That's a critical part of this discipleship journey. That's what's not happening in the church. 

Rick Green [00:21:57] Oh, George, so good, man. That, that is what you just said. I mean, that's gold. That that is the whole reason we do what we do at wall builders. That's why we're building the Patriot Academy campus and doing the things we're doing there. We bring these kids in for a year at a time to model that, to motivate them to live this out. Oh, you just gave, I thought this was going to be a depressing interview. I was, I was so, I looked at these numbers. I looked to these stats. I was like, Oh, it's so bad out there. The rotten, the culture is so real, but you just gave me hope because that remnant is there. It's the numbers that God loves to work with. And, and now we just got to go to those two to 3% of those adults that are, that are in that category, get them motivated, get, give them the modeling. And then for those kids coming up, also do the same thing. Channel them in, you know, this is so good, George. Thank you. Thank you for sharing with us today. This is really good stuff. Oh, the publication of this. So how can we, um, send people to, do you have a white paper coming out or is it already out? 

George Barna [00:22:47] It's out, it's out. They can find it at georgebarna.com or they can find it at culturalresearchcenter.com. It's in both places. It's free. So take it, use it, read it, get on with it. 

Rick Green [00:23:00] George, you're such a good brother, man. God bless you, thank you for coming on today. 

George Barna [00:23:04] Oh, my privilege, thanks for having me. 

Rick Green [00:23:07] Stay with us folks, we'll be right back with David Barton and George is going to get to go see his grandkids. Thanks for listening, we will be right, you're listening to The WalBuilders Show. 

Rick Green [00:24:20] Welcome back to the WallBuilders show. That was George Barna joining us and I'm back with David Barton now. And, uh, David, I love how we ended on it. A positive there. I mean, I guess nothing, you know, nothing new under the sun, right? 3% essentially that percentage that makes a difference. And you know it's, it's actually what we do at wall builders is, is do that kind of motivation, if you will, of getting people to realize that they can make a difference, that the principles do work and then that modeling of showing this is how. You disciple and then you live out that discipleship in the culture. So sounds like we're on track. Once we got to that final part, I was actually really encouraged early on. I was like, wait a minute, man. That means we're doing really bad overall, but when it comes down to that 3% really good, and that's the number we need to really push the culture the right direction. 

David Barton [00:25:04] Yeah, it is, and that's something that, you know, and you just said something that triggers something else that's really important, is one of the best ways to learn anything is to teach it to somebody else. And that doesn't matter whether you're a basketball coach or a baseball coach or anything else, once you start teaching somebody else, you'll start mastering a lot better yourself. And that really is a good thing for us to share with others. Take the knowledge that we have, whether that's big or little or a lot or not much, and share that with somebody else And when you start sharing that with somebody else, it'll help you to increase. It will certainly help them to increase, but that 3%, man, we don't need to be content with that. I'm glad that's enough to do it, but we need a whole lot more than 3%. And that's something that every one of us can do and every one should do because I mean, God put us here to please Him, not please ourselves. And so we need to do those things that will please Him. And then part of it is having that biblical worldview. 

Rick Green [00:25:57] Well, and I was, I was super encouraged just by the fact that, you know, if we start with ourselves, we did, we get discipled really well. We find people that can mentor us and disciple us, and then we become those force multipliers and get out there and, uh, and share with others. 

David Barton [00:26:13] Exactly right and such a good program to be reminded of that is just and we appreciate george and all that he does He's been a good friend and good ally But he's really good on helping us recognize the truth and be able to adapt to it and do it.

Rick Green [00:26:25]  Well there you go folks really nothing's changed you got to get saturated in God's word you got a build community to get disciples and disciple others and then go tend the garden same thing we've been talking about for a long time but some good encouragement to get out there and get it done. Thanks to George Barna for joining us thank you for listening you've been listening to The WallBuilders Show.