Rick Green [00:00:07] Welcome to the Intersection of Faith and Culture. It's the WallBuilders Show, taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective. Audrea Decker will be with us in just a few minutes. She's gonna give us an update on some of the legislation around the country. Rick Green here with David and Tim Barton. Guys, today's topic, of course, not a new topic for us, education. We talk a lot about how to improve it, how to basically move it away from the Marxist and get kids into an environment where they can get taught good values. And Texas is finally, it looks like, gonna have a school choice bill pass. And so there's concerns among some of our audience. You know, we all come from all three of us involved in the homeschool movement quite a bit. Tim and I both homeschooled, my kids homeschool. And so a lot of our homeschool friends are concerned about this as well. So Audrea is gonna catch us up on this particular piece of legislation in Texas, but I guess there's probably 10 or 12 states considering it right now and dozens that have already done something on it. So great topic for us to cover today. 

David Barton [00:01:04] You know, guys, one of the things that we've seen with legislation is a lot of it has really common themes, but there may be some different distinctions in it. Like, you know, Tim and I have been in a lot states this year on 10 commandments bills, and they're not all the same. They don't have the same wording. There's some differences from state to state, but they're all 98% favorable. I mean, we might want to comment here or something that we haven't seen anything that would cause us to kill that bill because the principle is so good. And it's been that way with school choice in a lot of ways. There's so many good things, and people will get caught on a clause here or clause there. Not that clauses aren't important, but just keep in mind what the big thing is and how much momentum shift you're doing. And quite frankly, a lot this is being done by the guys that this is their passion. Rick, you and me and Tim would all do school choice measures. We'd introduce that in a heartbeat if we were still in the legislature. And there were always gonna be people who didn't like exactly the way we said it. But the principle is so good, the principle of competition, the principle getting the government out of running, micromanaging education, letting parents have control over their kids, it's probably not gonna be ever 100% what people want, but maybe it's gonna be 99%. We just gotta remember to focus on the 99% more than the 1%. 

Tim Barton [00:02:20] And, you know, guys, too, I would add that one of the concerns that I hear the most, in fact, I've done some homeschool events this year, and this was a major concern for people there is if we take government dollars or strings attached, and I think ultimately the fear of some of what's happening right in Illinois right now, where you have the government coming and telling homeschoolers what they're gonna do and how they're going to do it and the curriculum they're are going to use, and even to the extent like they're threatening that you have to be vaccinated as a homeschooler in our state, et cetera. I mean, it's crazy stuff they're proposing in Illinois. And this is the major concern that we hear the most is if you take government dollars, there's always strings attached and you know, Rick one of the things that you've pointed out before is there's, it's a little bit of a straw man to some extent, because if you're afraid of the government coming against you, they don't need school choice to come against you. Right? If they wanted to try to control homeschooling, you mentioned in the legislature, there can be a challenge with legislators. And if you are afraid of bad legislation, then the solution is to get better legislators in this scenario. And so the problem as I see it is not school choice fundamentally, but it is a valid concern, the overreach of government. But as we can talk with Audrea and get some clarity on what we're seeing in states right now is there is some pretty good clarity of what students and parents have for their rights and what the very limited role of the government is in some of the situations. So even having Audria break this down a little bit for us in various states and what's going on, I think it would be very helpful for people to get a better understanding of some of this school choice that these ESAs, et cetera, are going on in some of the states. 

Rick Green [00:04:10] Audrea Decker, one of our team members, runs the Pro Family Legislative Network. She'll be with us when we come back on the break. Stay with us. You're listening to The WallBuilders Show. 

Rick Green [00:05:22] Welcome back to The WallBuilders Show. Thanks for staying with us. Audrea Decker back with us from the Pro Family Legislative Network. Audrea, always good to have you. Thanks for coming on. 

Audrea Decker [00:05:30] Thanks for having me. 

Rick Green [00:05:31] Well, we had a listener question. We normally do the listener questions on Thursday for Foundations of Freedom Thursday, but David said, man, let's get Audrea on. She's talking to legislators all over the country. And of course, there's a lot of school choice legislation out there. I like to call it parental empowerment legislation, but shows my bias on the issue anyway. So let me read you the question and then let's dive in. This is from a listener about the text, specifically the Texas bill. But this is, of course, debated in states all over the country. OK, so anyway, the listener said, what's your stance on Texas SB2 about school choice? My understanding was the voucher system would be good because it would allow school choice. However, I also heard it could negatively impact homeschoolers by limiting the curriculum they can use and increasing or adding yearly testing and other things. While I think school choice is important, I do not want it at the expense of homeschools. How do you feel this law would affect those areas and would it be good for the state. So I don't have the name on the, whoever set the question in, but great question. And definitely, you know, a legit question, right? I mean, we should think about these questions in any piece of legislation because it makes us consider the unintended consequences that could come from what seems like a good thing. And so, you now, thinking through these things, Audrea, what are you hearing from folks you talk to? And we could get really specific on SB2, but let's start generally speaking on the school choice question. Does it automatically, regulate, give more regulation to homeschoolers or limit their choices. That was kind of the way the question was worded. 

Audrea Decker [00:06:58] Yeah, and it is a really good question, and like you said, it's one that we're not just hearing here in Texas, but we are hearing all across the country just to give the listeners some perspective. Some 30 plus states have some school choice type programs in place. This legislative session, we've seen a couple of states take really big strides on school choice. Wyoming passed a universal school choice program $7,000 per student. Idaho passed a good step in the right direction, $50 million toward the school choice program. They had nothing before this legislative session. Tennessee passed something this session. So those are the three states this session that are moving. And then we know Texas, Kansas, New Hampshire, Ohio, South Carolina have bills that are still at play right now. So her question is a great one because we're hearing this, that same concern. Will this... Hinder homeschoolers, will this limit curriculum, not just here in Texas, but in other states? So the Texas bill specifically to answer her question about SB2 here in Texas, that bill has passed the Senate. The house has their own version, which differs slightly, but the Senate version that is passed here in Texas, passed one chamber, would essentially, it's a billion dollar package. would equate to about 100,000 student scholarships, which is a pretty small percentage when you look at the state of Texas, we have over five million students in K through 12, closer to six million actually. So we're only talking about 100 thousand students here. 80% of those, so 80,000 of those students, the scholarships will go to students who are already in public school. So it'll go to the students who are in public school and they can take that money and they can either homeschool, private school whatever their parent chooses, and they're prioritizing those with disabilities, special needs, and those with low income. So the first thing I would say right off the bat is this bill does not apply to everybody. It's a very small percentage, but I will say for the people that this does apply to, the way the bill works is it's an ESA, so you can use the money that the state is giving you up to $10,000 per student in the state of Texas. It's a little bit higher if your student has disabilities. And you can use that for educational related expenses. And so you can basically choose from the list of certified either providers, whether it be tutors or whatnot or curriculum. So yes, does it limit what you can use state dollars to purchase on curriculum in Texas? If you're one of the lucky few that get this scholarship, it does. But it's important to note, it does not prohibit the use of other curriculum. So if you're a homeschool mom in Texas and you win this scholarship, which not very many people will, but you get this scholarship. You can purchase curriculum that the state provides and paid for by the state. And if you wanna also purchase curriculum on your own that's not reimbursed for the state, you can still do that. So, you know, we say it all the time at WallBuilders and the pro-family legislative network, this really is a step in the right direction of restoring the free market principle of choice. And right now in our education system, a lot of people don't have choice. And so this bill in Texas in particular is really looking to help that most disadvantaged group in the state. 

Rick Green [00:10:28] Let me drill down a little bit on, or maybe I'm zooming out. I don't know which way I'm going here, but the on the question of, so if the question specifically, what I've heard you say based on the question specifically does this limit curriculum choice for homeschoolers? What I heard you, say is it actually expands curriculum choice for homescoolers because right now they have the choice of going out and spending their own money on any curriculum they want to buy. But that is limited by how much money they have to spend on that curriculum. And this opens up a category of an ESA where you would have those tax dollars to be able to use on what might be more expensive curriculum. And then from just a market forces perspective, throwing that money out there in the marketplace is going to create curriculums. So there's going to be more options for whether you use the tax dollars or not. There's just going to more market options for curriculum. So it seems like it expands and does not in any way put a restriction on those choices that homeschoolers already have. In other words, whether you're using the tax dollars or not, you could still use your own money for any curriculum you want. And if you choose not to participate, I think that's a really important point too, is hey, if you're worried about strings, if you worried about the objections that people bring up on this, hey, don't participate. And you're not affected at all by this bill. Is that an accurate interpretation of the bill? 

Audrea Decker [00:11:51] That's exactly right. So we're talking about a super small percentage of students at all who would get this, maybe around 100,000. But yes, you're right, you don't have to participate. So nobody is forced. 

Rick Green [00:12:01] It's opt-in, it's opt in, not forced in. 

Audrea Decker [00:12:04] Yeah, that's right. It's opt in. And to your point, yes, this just expands a parent's choice because now they have the ability to maybe have part of their curriculum or all of it depending on how much they want to utilize off the list covered. And if your particular history or Bible curriculum isn't on the list, maybe you're still paying for that out of pocket, but it's still going to be a savings for those parents. You know, it's interesting, Rick, as I talk to people and this is maybe a bold statement, but I think it's true. I've talked to a lot of people when they're concerned about this bill, I find it interesting that most of them had a choice. And I'm speaking, right, as a homeschool student and myself, I grew up a homescooler, so my parents had a choice and I'm super blessed that they did. But a lot of parents don't have that choice. And so a lot of the concern that's coming is actually from people that do have a choice, they're either already homeschooling, they already have their kids in private school or they make enough money that they afford to live in a good zip code which wins their child an opportunity at a good education. But if you're a single mom or you're somebody who can't afford to live in a good zip code and you can't to homeschool, you can afford not to work and to stay home with your kids, or you can't afford a private school tuition, which is really expensive nowadays, then you don't have an option. And it's interesting when I talk to those people and I say, are you for school choice? They are, because they don't choice. And so it makes me think of Luke 6.31, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, the golden rule, right? 

Rick Green [00:13:33] That's good. 

Audrea Decker [00:13:34] We have a choice as if you're a current homeschool family, current private school family, you live in a good school with a good public school, you have a choice. I'd say simply, this bill isn't for you. This is for the people that don't have a choice right now. 

Rick Green [00:13:48] I love that Audrea that's so well put and it's so important for us to think of others in that way. I remember that movie was it called Waiting for Superman or something about Superman and it was about essentially a family that didn't have that choice and I remember the scene where they're in there waiting for the draw with the ping pong balls right and just the angst on these mamas and on the kids and just the literally you could feel the fact that they didn't' have a choice. This was their only out. This was the only way to get their kid out of a school that's fighting, they're fighting guns and gangs. They're not learning how to read, write into arithmetic or learning civics. They're literally trying to survive the abuse in these, these horrible schools and give that kid a chance to go somewhere else. And you could feel the pain and just the angst. And then if the name didn't get drawn, you knew your kid was stuck in that, that school. If your name, their name did get drawn. You knew that meant a different trajectory for your child's entire life. I mean, I love the way they, they captured that. And I think you just described that. And I would even argue For those parents that do have the gen, I'm in the same boat. We, you know, I was homeschooled as a kid. We homeschool all four of our children. We paid twice, right? We paid a tremendous amount of tax dollars to our local school district. Two tuition, yeah. And then paid for schooling and all that. But I think even for the families that have choice, this bill affects them from the standpoint of the reason we have education is to have an informed citizenry. And so the more kids that get into a good school and get a good education the better our society's gonna be, the better are neighborhoods and our overall population in our state's gonna, so it's actually a net plus even to those parents that aren't gonna participate at all. It just improves education and you've watched this in all these other states. Everywhere this is done, it's no different than your candy bars or restaurants or cars or anything else. When you have competition, the product gets better and we've seen that improvement in education everywhere you get any kind of additional choice. Like you said, this is limited. but you add any amount of market forces, you get a better product. 

Audrea Decker [00:15:47] Yeah, that's exactly right. And Edchoice is a great resource on just the studies that have been done on school choice. Because it's been done in enough states now, we actually have studies to know how does this do. And we see consistently that we have higher testing rates. And one thing I thought was interesting is there were 11 studies that were conducted on civic values and practices, and they showed a positive increase in students' ability to understand civic values, practices, including students' tolerance for the rights of others, general civic knowledge increased, civic participation, volunteerism, voter registration, voter turnout, patriotism. These are just some of the things that were tracked across 11 studies and they saw a 55% increase in that. And so I just think it's Interesting. To your point, yes, the free market works, and when parents have a choice and they're empowered to make the best choice for their student, we see that the good schools thrive and the bad schools either are forced with two options. They either have to improve or they close their doors and that is what's best for students. So we have a socialistic system, education system in that students are assigned to a school based off of their economic standing and then they're forced to stay in that school, whether or not the school is is good or not. Whether or not students can read at grade level or not, we don't have a choice for them unless you're lucky enough to win the lottery of these few spots where those parents get choice. So this is a huge step in the right direction for Texas to be thinking about a school choice program. And like I said, it's not just Texas. We're seeing a dozen plus states worked on legislation related to this this year and Huge shout out to Wyoming for the great bill that they passed. So really good progress. And thanks to Trump too for his leadership on speaking about this from a federal level of wanting to see school choice enacted across the country. 

Rick Green [00:17:52] Yeah, and here in Texas, by the way, as you were saying that I was trying to find that movie and there is a there's a documentary waiting for Superman. The movie I was thinking of that captured the scene so well was that Maggie Gyllenhaal movie won't back down. And it's a similar kind of deal. But it's much more dramatized, you know, Hollywood kind of kind of version. But they have that scene where they're waiting to draw. Anyway, all of that to say what you're seeing is so spot on. And of course, Audrea, we've seen the political fight in Texas over this. This was the issue in the primaries last year. I think there were something like 10 or 12 incumbent Republicans that had fought school choice all these years were against it, they got defeated in the, in the primary. And so the vote's going to be really, really close over on the house side, but it looks like we're going to have the majority. So this isn't just theory. I mean, this is likely going to go into, into practice and either this fall or the other following fall. And I mean I was in the legislature 25 years ago, and it was one of my two main reasons for running school choice and ending property taxes. And, uh, we just couldn't get it. We couldn't, get anywhere. And now we're on the cusp of getting this done. And for those kids that are trapped, this is just huge, man. This is hope for their futures. And it's a whole generation later that we're finally gonna get it. But praise God we're almost there. And so like you said, I mean, we acknowledge, we understand the concerns of homeschoolers. We understand the concern of private schoolers. I don't want regulation either. I used to tell people the best way to, the legislature can regulate you tomorrow. And so the best to stop that is you get good legislators in the legislature and you let your voice be heard. I would love your thoughts on just the fact that this actually, in my opinion, makes it more likely to stop regulation in the future because we're increasing the base of people that are homeschooled or private schooled. So in other words, we're increase in our lobby. Whereas right now, you've got so many people that homeschool or private-school, if you open that up and competition happens, we could double or triple or quadruple the number of people that are in the homeschooling or private schooling bucket, which means now, your lobby at the legislature to stop regulation increases. Does that make sense? I mean, am I extrapolating too much there? 

Audrea Decker [00:19:50] No, that's exactly right. I mean, just the pure premise of school choice, right? You're taking students who are in government-run schools, and you're giving the ability to go into the free market. And so even some of the questions around, well, curriculum or testing, isn't that government regulation? I'm thinking, well, the alternative is a completely government- run school. So really, to your point, yes, we are broadening the base. We are ensuring that students have choice and opportunity. and all of that, so it's huge. And I will say about the Texas bill, even though it's only 100,000 students, it's a billion dollars. So it's Texas-sized bill. I think it'll be the largest school choice bill in the country, just from a pure financial standpoint of the amount of money that Texas is allowing. So yes, that is money that is moving out of the government system that can flow into the private sphere, and that's powerful. 

Rick Green [00:20:48] I was thinking about when you're saying that just the it's like there's this huge massive pool of money and I'm talking, you know, what is it probably more than a trillion every year when you add up all the states and the federal government money and everything that is essentially controlled by the Marxists. I know that to some people that's gonna sound like an exaggeration, but it's the teacher unions. It's the bureaucracy. These are people that all came through these indoctrination schools and they think like Marxists. And so that's why the schools have gotten so bad. And you're literally just cutting off a sliver of that, right? We're just taking as little, you know, some of that and redirecting it to schools and parents that are not going to teach Marxist ideology, not going to teach DEI and CRT and all those things. So you're, you're trying to redirect the dollars, put it in the hands of the parents, let the parent be the one to decide where that money flows, let them money follow the kid. Doesn't matter what the building says. I mean, those are all the reasons why this is such a monumental thing. Audrea, thank you for following all these bills. I know you, I don't know how you keep up with all of it because there's, you know, I think it's what five or 10,000 just in Texas there in one session and you've got to keep up With all 50 states. So I don' know how you do it, but thank you. 

Audrea Decker [00:21:51] we have a great team, we have great team. I'll add one last thing, we've heard it said before, so as WallBuilders just for all school choice bills, you're just gonna blanket accept them. And my answer is always the same, we're to remain vigilant with all legislation, whether it be school choice or other things. And so I would just encourage anyone that's listening, read the bill and participate in the legislative process. These bills get strengthened over time with amendments and all those things. And so to those who may be concerned about, you know, fear of what could come down the road, well, that's why we stay vigilant to make sure that over-regulation doesn't happen, to make that maximum freedom is preserved and choice is preserved, all those thing. And so... There's not one bill that's going to forever ensure that for everyone. We have to stay vigilant, engaged in the process. So it's an honor to work with these legislators through the pro-family legislative network all across the country who are courageously fighting for constitutional and biblical values. 

Rick Green [00:22:58] Such a good way to close this out because that is, you know, no matter what happens in the election, no matter what happens in a legislative session, you stay vigilant. I mean, that's consent of the governed out of the declaration. That's our part. That's doing our job. So no matter. What bill passes, we're going to be right back in the election, paying attention. We're going be right. Back in the next legislative session. Paying attention. So good. Audrea Decker, pro family legislative network. Thank you so much for coming on. 

Audrea Decker [00:23:19] Thank you. 

Rick Green [00:23:20] Stay with us folks, we'll be right back with David and TimBarton

Rick Green [00:24:30] Welcome back to The WallBlower Show. Thanks for staying with us. Thanks to Audrea Decker for joining us once again. And guys, of course, Audrea is looking at this not just for Texas, but all over the country and sees all these different bills. And as we said in the interview, legit concerns. Tim, you said it early at the top of the program. Hey, we understand why people would be concerned. We want to think about those unintended consequences. But David, you've said it as well. The pros are huge here. The cons are possible. The negatives are possible, but the way we're looking at the bill right now- They're very small and well worth the big principle that could be passed here. 

David Barton [00:25:04] Yeah, and one of the big principles, one of big biblical principles, as well as constitutional principles, is free market competition. You want that. The more competition you have, the more freedom you're going to have. And that's in businesses, that is in education, that is every area. And that is the overriding principle here, is break up the monopoly, break up secular monopoly, and start having competition. And that what School of Choice does. 

Tim Barton [00:25:28] Well, and as Audrea pointed out, this is something that's not mandatory either. So if there are homeschool families, like this bill that in Texas she spent a lot of time talking about, if there're families that are concerned, well, I wouldn't wanna take those dollars because, well, you don't have to, as she even pointed out. There's very limited scholarships available based on the sheer number of students and the money that was allocated and set aside. And 80% of it's going to parents whose kids are already in public school, but 20% could be open to homeschool and Christian school families. And if there is a valid concern, and by the way, I think some concerns could be valid, if you have a what you think is a value concern, then you don't need to be the one taking the money. But we wouldn't want to stop people that are trapped in some of these bad school districts and don't really have another way out to being able to have an opportunity to give their kids a choice. 

Rick Green [00:26:20] All right, folks, we'll definitely cover this topic more, both from the Texas point of view and also some of the other states that are dealing with it. If you want an extended conversation on this, we've got a free episode of The Tavern available at PatriotU.com. And I walk through all the pros and cons on School Choice if you want to dig a little deeper on that one today. And don't miss tomorrow, we got Foundations of Freedom Thursday where we'll be taking your questions. Send those into us at RadioWallvillers.com Thanks so much for listening to The WallBuilders Show