Rick Green [00:00:07] Welcome to the intersection of faith and culture. It's The WallBuilders Show, taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical and constitutional perspective. And you've got to do the same thing. You've got to take on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical and constitutional perspective. That's one reason to listen to wobblers every day of the week so that you're getting equipped and you can get engaged with the with the intellectual ammunition that you need to be engaged at the local level. But all of us, we got to have that biblical perspective. That means diving into God's word. We're going to talk more about that today and how important it is for our seminaries especially to have that. But are we in a revival? That's the big question today. Rick Green here with David and Tim Barton. And David, you used to have a cassette tape on this I mentioned a couple of weeks ago and that ages me there by saying cassette tape. But you talked about the difference between revival and reformation and what you see in the culture years later. If you really did have a revival. 

David Barton [00:00:55] I think most people who pray for revival don't have a clue what they're praying for. They're praying for a lot more work, a lot more messy stuff to take care of, because if you're going to have a revival, you got to get the bad stuff to the surface and deal with it. And that's the only way you're going to have a reformation is to get that bad stuff out. And so that had to be done with slavery. It had to be done, you know, all these other issues that we've had to deal with. And so people are praying. And I know churches all over the country are praying for revival, and they'll mention that and Sunday service with the prayers. Lord send a revival question is when it comes, are you prepared for it? What are you willing to do? How much work are you willing to put in? Because a revival is not God just sweeping all the garbage out of the house and we don't have to worry about anymore. There's a lot that goes with the revival. 

Tim Barton [00:01:39] Well, and you know, to that point that you've talked about this a long time, Rick and I have grown up hearing you talk about it. We now talk about it. But it's it's so much more. And this is maybe even where the words revival and reformation are are very similar and yet very different in a lot of people's minds with revival, a lot of people think of this emotional move and this emotional appeal. But unfortunately, in a lot of some of the revivals that we have seen or I think that people often think about it, it excludes a level of discipleship. It is almost like there was the parable that Jesus talked about, that the father had two sons and went to one and said, Hey, I'm what you do this sounds like, yeah, I totally am going to do that. And then didn't do it. And then once I was like, I don't want to do that and finally did it. I think sometimes there's this emotional appeal where we feel it in the moment, but if there's not the follow through, then what people might perceive from the outside is a revival. Because look, all these people felt, Jesus, all these people loved God in that moment. If there's not a follow through of actions, if there's a transformation, which is part of that discipleship process, then it really is a lot more hollow. And I think that to your point, there's a lot of people that don't have the depth of understanding historically to see what revivals are, and revivals are much closer to what we would know is like a reformation because of the length of time of which they last and how it transforms not just the lives, the people involved in it, but ultimately transforms the culture where it's happening. 

David Barton [00:03:12] Let me take revival and liken it to something in sporting like fishing. Let's say you're a fisherman like Peter and you have an account like John 21:11 and Jesus blesses you by saying, Hey, throw your net out here and you're going to have a whole bunch of. And so Peter pulled in 153 fish now for hand fishing, that's a massive amount on Sea of Galilee. And so, man, look, look what God did for. Okay, What did Peter have to do? He had to clean 153 fish. That was a big problem. Well, I can't say. Problem is probably a big blessing, but there's a lot of work that went with cleaning 153 fish. And then how do you salt all those fish down and preserve them and keep them for more? I mean, he suddenly had a whole new set of issues to deal with. Jesus really blessed. It did a miracle for him. And then look at all the stuff Peter had to do on the other end to kind of clean up after that. And that's that's kind of Reformation revival in the same way revival brings some things then that need to happen. But man, there's a lot of work on the other end of taking care of all the stuff that starts to happen when you do have a revival and if you plan on setting out the Reformation was the revival began, you will not have a true reformation. It'll it'll end right there. And like all those fish spoiling that Peter caught, it's going to end right there. And that's not what we want to happen. 

Rick Green [00:04:33] Well, Judge Phill Ginn is going to be with us when we come back. He's the president of Southern Evangelical Seminary. And David, he's got a great article on this, honestly saying a lot of the things that you said in that in that recording years ago and that we've talked about here on the on the program, he's boots on the ground actually helping to make this happen with pastors and teach them the difference as well. Here's a guy that served on the court for what, 30 years or something like that before he took over this seminary. And this is one of those few places that you could call a college or seminary, whichever term you want to use. That stayed true and and still, you know, adhering to biblical tuth instead of going into all the woke ideology. So we're excited to have him with us. And I also would encourage you to visit his website, but we'll give that out when we get him on the program. Stay with us. We'll be right back on the bubble issue. 

Rick Green [00:06:23] Welcome back to The WallBuilders Show. Thanks for staying with us. I start to say, Professor, Judge, President, you got all these titles that I don't know which one to call you, but Phil Ginn is with us. Thank you so much for coming on. 

Phil Ginn [00:06:35] It's always my pleasure to be with you. 

Rick Green [00:06:36] Well, all those years on the bench and now president of a seminary. And yet here we are at the greatest opportunity to apply everything you learned over those decades. I always tell David Barton is like, for such a time as this, it took all those years to get us ready. We finally convinced the king to let us go rebuild the walls. The king being we the people. And so now it's time to go lay some bricks. And and you've got such a great foundation for that. But your article about revival is why we asked you to be on the program. But for sure, let's talk about seminary before we're done, Judge. Are we potentially in a revival that could lead to real change in our country? 

Phil Ginn [00:07:13] Well, I don't know that we're in the revival itself. We've been offered the greatest opportunity that I've seen in my lifetime for revival. I do see the spirit moving, and I think there's some evidence of that. And I watched the national championship of the college football between Notre Dame and Ohio State in and watched pregame and some of the post-game. And there's no telling how many times the name of Jesus was mentioned during that period of time. And faith was mentioned by the broadcasters, by the players, by the coaches. And I just you and have seen that a few years ago. That's right. And I note that another evidence was that the beginning of the of the school year at Ohio State, there was a revival on that campus that was led by the football team. That's right. You see other evidence of that? The University of Georgia, Clemson University, you go down the list of of several places where where there's been a movement on college campuses. In my own home, Appalachian State University is one of ours. We started a just what we thought would be a relatively small college ministry. We've got a church that's got probably 400 people attend regularly and all of a sudden we started this ministry, put some money behind it and put some food in and some bellies. And now we've got 200 college kids coming every Wednesday night and hungry, hungry for the gospel and hungry to know more about their faith and so I sense that even in those people who are not literally searching for Christ. They're searching for something they may not know what it is that they're searching for, but they're longing for something more than what they have Rick and it's time for us to to offer that alternative to them that we know that is true and that is the gospel of Jesus Christ. 

Rick Green [00:09:14] Amen. There's so many things in your article in The Washington Times. We'll have a link at our website today to get over there to it that that our just just absolutely said amen to as I was I was reading and even the way you describe this window of opportunity you said it's a window of opportunity that's at least slightly opening it up and saying we have a window of opportunity. It's cracked open. That's what I've been saying for for a month and a half now. And it's and it's our job to shove it open. Right. And drive through and what the door. 

Phil Ginn [00:09:37] We've got to walk through it Rick. 

Rick Green [00:09:38] Amen. Amen. Yeah. And so that's yeah, and I guess that's the big question. You know, you look at, as you mentioned in the article, the increase in, in, you know, purchases of Bibles, especially young men and all these different things are great signs. So what do we do with like, what would you say to the listener right now is a way for them to seize that opportunity? How do they shove that window open and go through? 

Phil Ginn [00:10:00] Well, Rick, the first thing let me say that there's one impediment that I see. That we can certainly do something about. But my fear is that the church is not prepared. To carry the revival to the mass. Where we've been busy for years and years and years creating church members. And assimilating them into into something. I work some with senior adults who've been in church all their life, and many of these people have no biblical basis for them. 

Rick Green [00:10:36] They're not ready. They're not ready to give an answer. 

Phil Ginn [00:10:38] They're not ready to. 

Rick Green [00:10:39] Idea that are hungry come and they've got questions and we're not ready to answer. 

Phil Ginn [00:10:43] Yeah, we're not ready to give the answer. And the churches, as I said, we're we're really busy. I've said this about Baptist before. We're really busy about getting people wet, but we don't know much about drying them off. And so, you know, we. 

Rick Green [00:11:00] Get them, we get them to walk the aisle. But we're we're not discipling them. We're not we're not showing them how to go out. Yeah. Yeah. 

Phil Ginn [00:11:06] That's the issue. And and, you know, even the great commission doesn't say go and evangelize the world. 

Rick Green [00:11:11] That's right. 

Phil Ginn [00:11:12] The great commission says go and make disciples to all nations. 

Rick Green [00:11:16] Everything. No way. Didn't it say teaching them only those things that aren't politically controversial. 

Phil Ginn [00:11:20] Don't have that. 

Rick Green [00:11:22] That might not be the right. Yeah. 

Phil Ginn [00:11:24] Well, that's. And that's in Mr. Biden's version I guess. I don't know. 

Rick Green [00:11:29] Yeah. Everything he no, you're right. We haven't done that. And as you just pointed out, we're not ready to do that. So how do we get like, what is a we have a lot of pastors that listen, what is the best way for them to prepare their church to move into that space? 

Phil Ginn [00:11:43] Let me let me tell you one more thing before I before I change that. Barna's studies will show that less than 5% of the churches in America actually have an effective discipleship program. 5%? So that's what's got to change, right? Yeah. And and what we are doing here at Southern Evangelical Seminary and I'm so proud of us, we have decided that we're going to be the champion of the church in America. And by that I mean we're not only going to support the churches and building them up, we're going to provide for them materials and opportunities to develop these discipling programs, these outreach programs, so that they can do this even utilizing the Internet. And what we're trying to do is to model what Jesus did. Take a handful of folks and and, you know, the discipline programs that we have, we meet once a week, have a have a ham biscuit or sausage biscuit. And if it's a guy, you know, you say, well, are you are you studying your Bible pretty well? You're reading it every day or are you having any impure thoughts or are you staying away from pornography? Good. I'll see you next week. 

Rick Green [00:12:59] Right? That's about it. 

Phil Ginn [00:13:00] Yeah. You know, and. And there's nothing there. We're starting back. You. 

Rick Green [00:13:04] You forgot the gravy, though. You said salt. Yeah, but you got here. I've got. Yeah. Yeah. 

Phil Ginn [00:13:07] And but we're starting back with simple things. How do you study a Bible? 

Rick Green [00:13:12] Yeah. 

Phil Ginn [00:13:13] You know, let's take. Let's take some folks and we're, we're even doing things like some of our students. We have evangelism courses here where we'll drop students off at to Barnes and Noble and they'll take a see somebody reading a book on art or looking at a book on art. And they'll take that book on art and began to proclaim the gospel to them. Yeah, and from that art. But now we're built on the foundation of the inerrancy of scripture here. We're, we're solid on that. Yeah. But so many people don't even know that they need to be looking into scripture. They don't know what they're looking for. Just like the Ethiopian eunuch. Yeah. You know, he's reading the Bible. He doesn't. He. He says to Philip, Tell me what I'm reading now. 

Rick Green [00:14:02] But he's going to tell me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Phil Ginn [00:14:04] And, and so that's what we're going to we're going to be helping churches do that. 

Rick Green [00:14:09] So you're not just, you know, typically we think of a seminary only as, okay, that's where you go. If you're in your toes and you want to be a preacher, what you're saying is we're going to actually do the great commission. This seminary is now going to help churches disciple people in their church. I'm like you. I am fired up about our church and what our our pastor is doing right now on Wednesday night with with total discipleship. I mean, it's Sunday mornings, too. But I mean, we're walking through on Wednesday night what it means to be a believer in obey everything that he commanded in our in every area, entertainment, politics, all of it. We're not leaving anything off the table because he's the lord of everything. And what you're saying is that as a seminary, you guys are reaching out to that. The 95% of churches that aren't doing that and saying, let us help you, let us come alongside you. 

Phil Ginn [00:14:55] Absolutely. And and because we are on line, we have the ability a first class online services. You can you know, with this training we have different levels of training we got training for. We will have training for laypeople, for ministers and for pastors. Ministers may be somebody like you or me who are not pastoring a church, but who who are steeped in in the faith and in you know, we may not need the same training that a normal layperson just starting out might need. So we've got three different levels of training. And when we turn you loose, you'll be able to make disciples by utilizing the Internet. You could be you could actually be defiling somebody in another country. Or across the world. And and it's a wonderful thing. We've got already two states that. In about 80 churches that are lined up with this already. 

Rick Green [00:15:54] No kidding. Well, and by the way, while we're talking about this, just in case we lose somebody that's listening today, Cisco, Edu. So that's that's the evangelical seminary. Yes. Dot Edu is the website to go learn more about this. And the first thing that popped out to me, I love this. The tomb was empty. Your mind shouldn't be. I'm feeling that, brother. I'm going to you. I'll give you credit the first two times after that I'm I'm just going to say I made it up. That is so again, that is such an indictment of the church today. It's so true. Man. So fill in our getting our minds not empty and studying these things and using these tools absolutely essential. And that's really what you're saying. If if the window of opportunity is there, it's now time to move out of the emotional and kind of the celebration that that we have this opportunity and get to the hard work, actually start doing the steps. 

Phil Ginn [00:16:43] Franklin Graham is a is a dear friend of mine and I and I love what he does. I love what Samaritan's Purse does. I love what Bgea does. I just Franklin and I were in school together and we don't. But by common agreement, we don't talk about everything that we used to do when we were in school. But at any rate, you know, Franklin, it's not only the church that have it, it's Franklin. When they come in, Samaritan's Purse comes in to a a an area where there's great destruction and they come to aid people and and they bring people in and they literally when people to the Lord while they're there. And then at some point in time they pick up and leave and and there's a gap because there's nobody there to pick these folks up. And so why not provide that methodology for them? Yeah. In and you know he does one of his festivals and 2 or 3000 people come forward and then Begay leaves town and where where is that gap going to be filled if it's not by the local church? By the local. 

Rick Green [00:17:48] Church? 

Phil Ginn [00:17:48] That's right. And so that's what we're going to be about. We're we're coming in. We're not. Please do not misunderstand. I am for evangelism. Not sure. I don't think that we do enough of it. But but it is a personal relationship, one on one that helps that person grow in the faith. And without that there, without, you know, proper farming techniques, your seed is not going to grow and give you a good crop. And so that's what we need to be about. 

Rick Green [00:18:19] And you're not going to know how to yeah, you're not going to know how to tend the garden. Yeah. I mean, we've been planted here and given this incredible stewardship of a free nation and the ability to choose our leaders, the ability to run our communities and our neighbor has the ability to raise our families as we are. You know, in the nurture now of initiative order, We got to know how to do that and to know how to do that, we got to be disciples, right? 

Phil Ginn [00:18:40] Well, somebody asked me, you know, today, what was the greatest significance? What was the greatest thing you took away from the from the inaugural activities? And there were many, Rick. I mean, it was a phenomenal day. Banner Dark day. Yeah. At least, you know, we know that if nothing else, we know there's a new sheriff in town and. Right. But my response was, here's here's the most impressive thing that I take away from that. We've got four years. 

Rick Green [00:19:11] Yeah. 

Phil Ginn [00:19:11] We've got four years. To change the heart of America. 

Rick Green [00:19:16] Yeah. I, I, I would modify. I think we had two years. I think we have to do it in these first two years while they're listening, while there's momentum before they're lulled back to sleep. You know. 

Phil Ginn [00:19:29] I in and you know, I talked to so many church leaders and they're so thankful and they say we need to pray for the president. And that's what we need to be about. And we're just going to do church as usual. That's not worked in America. And not that we shouldn't pray for our party, for our president and all the leaders. And I try to do that on a regular basis myself. Even Mr. Biden and Ms.. Harris. But we've got to do the great commission. We can't just assimilate folks into the club at the church. 

Rick Green [00:20:03] There's there's a great quote by John Hancock where he said, I urge by all the steer, by all that's honorable, by all, it's sacred not only to pray, but to act. And that's really what you're saying. Ses.edu. Ses.edu. Folks, you want revival? You want reformation. Let's go do the hard work. Let's make disciples. Judge your blessing, man. As you appreciate you coming on. We got to get you back for more. 

Phil Ginn [00:20:27] Rick, I'd love to come. I'm going to be in Texas, by the way. I don't know if you're coming down NRB or not, but I'll be in Texas for the NRB. 

Rick Green [00:20:33] That's February, right? 

Phil Ginn [00:20:34] That's in February. We love to see you out there. And you know, I'm a Texan. You don't have to ask to talk to people long before they tell you. Right? 

Rick Green [00:20:43] I was about to say, welcome to God's country, but apparently you've been before Fort Worth. 

Phil Ginn [00:20:48] Fort Worth. They've been built. You know, I tell everybody they built this great, beautiful courthouse down there just to hold my birth certificate in. 

Rick Green [00:20:57] That's great. 

Rick Green [00:20:58] You know. 

Rick Green [00:21:00] Well, in February. Welcome home, then. 

Phil Ginn [00:21:02] All right. Well, you know, the one thing I'd leave with our listeners is if not now, when? If not now when? What are you waiting on?  and you know, I the thing, I'm 71 years of age and the thing that keeps me young and keeps me going to this is who knows who that one person may be that we might reach. And everybody and that's listening to me right now, I guarantee you, has a handful of people who are very close to them will not walk in with the Lord. Yeah, yeah. And that's what keeps me going. And that's that's what my prayers are about. And we need to be about the business of, of showing these people the way in God will and Southern Evangelical Seminary is going to be in front of it. 

Rick Green [00:21:50] Amen  you know, the harvest is plenty. The workers are few for sure. And Judge, I was thinking on election night, even I was thinking it's an election is a measurement of how well the church is disciple. Because if we're disciples in well, then people want biblical principles because they've been taught that and therefore they'll vote for biblical principles and therefore you'll get, you know, better people in office. And so the measurement of whether or not we truly disciple is going to come in two years and in four years and, you know, we've got this great opportunity to press the gas and gain ground back in this country. So I appreciate what you're doing. Looking forward to locking shields with you and doing more with me. 

Phil Ginn [00:22:26] And I look forward to it. I hope to see you in person. 

Rick Green [00:22:30] All righty. Thanks so much for coming on. Stay with us, folks. We'll be right back with David and Tim Barton. 

Rick Green [00:23:41] Welcome back to the WallBuilders Show. Thanks for staying with us. Thanks to Judge Ginn for joining us and for what they're doing there at Southern Evangelical Seminary. Great stuff. Check out that website as we gave it out. And David, until I mean, man, if if every seminary adhered to the teaching of God's word in the way that they are, maybe we wouldn't be in the best word. Because I hear it all the time. These pastors that went off the road went off the rails. They were actually encouraged to do so at seminary. 

Tim Barton [00:24:05] Well, I think we have to look no further than the Tuesday prayer service of last March. Right. With President Trump. And that's exactly right. You know, Dad, I remember you having some fallouts with pastors that we'd been connected with for a long time. When you talked about just the data, the stats, you were seeing, your friendship with George Barna, the work you've done, you were getting all this information about these churches that we're no longer believing in, in an and see the accuracy of God's Word. They weren't believing some basic doctrines anymore. And so you said, look, there's a lot of these pastors that basically they have a job because they like talkin and they want to get a paycheck. They don't want to work. Right. They don't want to work for the gospel in God's kingdom. It's almost like you're on this welfare program. And and there were some some pastors that we've been very good friends, but they got very offended by this. But the reality is, if you are not a shepherd, the only other option in scripture is you're a hireling, You're either a shepherd or a hireling. And if you're not defending standing by, teaching the Word of God, if you're not disciplining the the flock, Right, you're not helping guide them in what they do. Where even the Bible says that the role of the church is to equip the saints for the work of the ministry of the church is not going to equip the saints. Then it's it's negligent in what it's being called to do. And certainly this is part of what he was talking about and grateful that there are some institutions that are recognizing where there has been such a gaping hole in in what's happened in a lot of seminaries, and it's been the discipleship aspect. So it's great to see a return to that discipleship. And certainly we need to see far more of this. And then maybe we'd have some pastors again who know the Word of God, who would courageously stand up and teach and defend and disciple based on the Word of God. 

Rick Green [00:25:55] Well, it's like anything else. When they know they're not alone, it helps, right? It's rare when you have somebody that's willing to go out there and and blazed a trail and, you know, speak that truth even when nobody else is standing with them. Of course, those are always heroes when they do that. But when you have a seminary like this and you have a network, you can plug in to that, supporting you in that and giving you intellectual ammunition and biblical ammunition for that as well. It makes such such a big difference. So really excited to hear about this and what they're doing and encourage people to to check it out. One of the best ways to stay informed and get your own encouragement and find those groups that you can team up with is to listen to WallBuilders every day of the week. You'll be encouraged and know people to do it on their walk or their workout or on their drive, or they just take time with the whole family to listen every day. Hope you'll do the same and share it with everybody that you can. Let's equip and inspire a generation to rebuild Liberty in 2025. Thanks for listening to The WallBuilders Show.