Rick Green [00:00:07] Welcome to Intersection of Faith and Culture. Thanks for joining us today on The WallBuilders Show. Rick Green here with David Barton and Tim Barton. You can learn more about us at wallbuilders.com as our main site. Lots of great materials there for you check it out And then also WallBuilders.show that's our radio site. So if you missed any shows last couple of weeks WallBuilders.show and please do share with your friends and families the best way to get it out there, get the truth out there for more people to stand on that as we are rebuilding in 2025. What a great year this is going to be, guys. So many people excited about the things going on, all kinds of areas to gain ground. And of course, I mean, David, you started WallBuilders for rebuilding the family, the nuclear unit and teaching people why that was so important. Lots of areas that legislators are going to have a chance to do that this year in individual states. 

Tim Barton [00:00:54] Where guys, as we are having this conversation, we're all in different places. And I am actually in North Dakota because as we're talking about state legislatures, we have the opportunity to be in a lot of states this year promoting some really incredible legislation. One of the things that happened in Louisiana last year when the Ten Commandments was something that was signed into law, was going to go into all public school classrooms in the state of Louisiana, was right behind Governor Landry when he signed that law. That was one of the things that we were able to work with First Liberty and many other groups as well in developing some of these ideas of the standard from the U.S. Supreme Court right now is what's known as the history and tradition standard. Back in 2019, there was a Bladensburg Cross decision. There was a World War One Memorial cross that the American Human Association was offended by. Some atheist was offended that tear that thing down his on government property and the American Legion was the one defending it. Well, the case was all the way U.S. Supreme Court. And the argument was that because it's a religious symbol, it violated what was known as a lemon standard, the lemon test from the 1971 Lemon V Kurtzman case. And the Supreme Court looked at it like, look, it's ridiculous that we're saying we should tear down a World War one memorial cross at the end of World War One. A group of mothers who had lost their kids raise money that they they build and erect this cross from the money they raised after they lose their kids in the war. And the suggestion now from some atheist is it offends me and we should tear it down. It's crazy. But what they said was, if there is history and tradition of something in America, there should be a presumption of constitutionality. Meaning like if if we've had crosses in cemeteries for a long time and this is like a brand new thing, then then we shouldn't assume that it's unconstitutional and said we should go the other direction. And we've always had like crosses in cemeteries. We should think, well, that's probably fine and constitutional. The reason I bring it up is when you look at history and tradition, there's a history and tradition of doing lots of things that we've now removed from public squares, including things like having the Ten Commandments in public schools, going back to the time of the Pilgrims. They're using the Ten Commandments in their very first education books, not the least of which being the Bible. But when they do the New England Primer in 1690, there's more than 40 questions on the Ten Commandments. And the reason we bring this up is because what I'm doing in North Dakota is I testifying in a committee about the history and tradition of the influence of the commandments in education. And so from the time of the pilgrims up through like 1980s, the Ten Commandments were used in public schools. And so there's a long history and tradition that that's part of how we did education. It's it's part of how we form this idea of a moral code of rights and wrongs and and why we thought stealing was wrong. We shouldn't murder people and some of these basic American ideas or even basic moral and certainly legal ideas. The reason I bring that up, Rick, back to your thought is there's so many opportunities now to to change the fabric of the nation in a lot of states and through a lot of the state legislative process. That's actually why I'm on the road right now. But there are so many cool opportunities for us ahead this year. 

David Barton [00:04:06] And one of them we had at WallBuilders with a legislative session here a few weeks ago. And it was really that the concept of kind of rebuilding or re strengthening the family over the last several decades, families have kind of really been redefined and restructured. It's more about the convenience for the adults rather than the structural role that families used to play historically, as well as in the Bible. So Katie Foust with them for us is they have a great organization. Them before us makes the kids really come before the parents. Marriage is not about the parents. It's about the kids you produce and raising them in the next generation, etc.. And so the selfishness we went through, starting really in the 60s and 70s and 80s, that kind of got codified in the 90s and 2000s. We've made everything about us. And Katie is really, really good at getting this back to, Hey, what's the most important? And it's not us. It's it's our family. It's our culture. It's. It's the next generation we're raising. And she has done just a terrific job with legislators. We use her throughout the states like Tim is in North Dakota. Katie helps legislators all over the country kind of get the priorities back right again. She has such a good voice on this. 

Rick Green [00:05:19] Katie Foust with Them Before Us. Stay with us. Folks will be right back. On The WallBuilders Show. 

Rick Green [00:06:29] Welcome back. Thanks for staying with us here on The WallBuilders Show. Katie Foust back with us from them before us. Scott, first of all, Katie, thanks for speaking to the legislators at our Legislator conference and for all that you do. 

Kaite Foust [00:06:40] Well, we are big fans of WallBuilders and we're big fans of the conference, mainly because you get there and you know, you can get a little cynical looking at politics and being like, look at that guy not standing by his principles. But then you get all of these people at the WallBuilders Conference, largely no neighbors, people that you've never heard of unless they're in your state. And even then get educated. People know who your state reps and senators are. But what I love is that this is where you find the backbone. These are the people that refuse to bend. These are the politicians who really are in it for the principle, not for the profit, not for the praise. And so I just every time I come away, I'm so inspired because we've got these throngs of policymakers who are like, I'm ready to do something. And I'm like, this is a population we can work with. 

Rick Green [00:07:27] That's right. They're kind of, like you said, unsung heroes. Most people are. You know, they are. But they're behind the scenes. They're the ones doing the heavy lifting. They're the ones with the finger in the dike to stop the bad stuff from from coming over and. And you get them all together for that one weekend. And it's it's been that way since we started it. gosh. Almost, I think. See when was the 26 or 7? I was sitting in a car with David Barton going, okay, when I was a rep, you only had, you know, these couple of these conferences out there. And they weren't they weren't conservative conservative. They weren't biblically conservative, right. And and everywhere I went when I started speaking for Barton, I'd be like everybody I ran into, they'd say, a legislator. They go, I ran because of David Barton's book, Original Letter. I ran because I heard David speak somewhere. I was like, David, if we got everybody that ran for office in a room because they heard you speak somewhere, we'd probably have a big conference. So we did the first one. I think it was 05 or0 6, I can't remember with Mike Huckabee. And you know, we had, I don't know, 50 or 60 legislators, but you saw it this last November. I mean, man, that was, what, three, 400 people in that room? Not all legislators, but spouses, too. And and it's just it really became what we were praying for, which is an iron sharpening iron. Come into this thing for a weekend, get fired up, get some ideas, hear from people like you, Katie, on what they can specifically do as a legislator to get passed in their state to protect kids and restore family as the core, you know, unit. So anyway, I know it's our topic today, but I'm glad you I'm glad you saw what we were hoping it would become. And and I thank you for being a part of it and sewing into it because, you know, people sometimes think it's just the reps, man. We need the organizations like yours. Because I remember as a rep being just lost, you got 5000 bills in five months. There's no way you can be an expert on everything. We needed people like you to come in and sit down and say, okay, here's what to really look for. And by the way, here's what the opposition is going to say. Here's what you really need to be able to do. So anyway, all that to say thanks for what you do. 

Kaite Foust [00:09:15] Well, it's a delight. I heard John Stonestreet at the Colson Center say there's sort of three different roles in this culture war. One of them is the thought leaders, right? The people who are like delving into the first principles and like really, really plumbing the depths of, you know, American Constitution, foundations and biblical principles and Christian worldview. And like David Barton certainly is like one of those thought leaders. And then you have policymakers, the people that are going to actually implement, take these concepts and apply them to what's happening in their context, in their state, in their in their court case or whatever. But then you've got the translator and that's what I am. Yeah, okay. I am not the policymaker and I am not the thought leader, but I love the thought leaders. I read the thought leaders. I consume the thought leaders, and then I say, this is what it looks like in real life and this is actually what it means for the day to day. And it's very often a tool that is used to connect the dots for policymakers and to help it be very actionable and accessible so that they can communicate it to their own people. Right? So they're not going at it and coming to their constituents with thought leader material. That's really hard to understand. I'm like, No, let me tell you exactly what this means for kids. Let me tell you how you can do it in ways that align with your convictions. But then also we want to help you put this in practice and your specific state. So it's been awesome to be able to jump in there. This is my third year presenting at the WallBuilders Conference and it's just it's a shot of adrenaline every single time I go. 

Rick Green [00:10:49] I love that. Translator. I have to call you interpreters, right? Because, you know, policymakers tend to speak in, you know, three letter agencies. They'll rattle off all these agencies and nobody knows what in the world they're talking about unless they're, you know, knee deep in that stuff. And and then, of course, the idea guys, it's usually so esoteric and Yes. And theoretical that you can't get to it. And so anyway, that's great. I mean, that's exactly what needs to be done. Well, let's actually go there for a few minutes. I mean, what would you say in all that you're working on and the different the different policies that that are being considered by legislatures across the country or even local entities? We're at an inflection point, we're at a real chance to get big things done. So how do you pick like, what would you say are the top things that would really help restore the family unit in America and protect kids? 

Kaite Foust [00:11:39] Well, so the problem is we have been legislatively hamstrung in some ways. Right. When you've got like five Supreme Court justices who says that same sex couples have to be conferred the same constellation of benefits as heterosexual couples, and that any kind of deviation is going to be considered discrimination. You look at that and you go, well, there's not really much that we can do. And I actually had that conversation with Mike Farris, outgoing president of Alliance, Defending freedom of like, what can we do to start to carve back some of the ground that has been lost in the marriage decision. And he said Obergefell is different from Roe versus Wade, where you could sort of find those footholds is like there is no foothold. It is black and white. You literally cannot make any distinctions between same sex and opposite sex married couples. And so what that means to me, I'm like, so we got to get real creative. That's what has to happen here, because you cannot say this ground is lost forever. If you lose the marriage ground, children lose. And you. Right. The war is never over. When there is a law, a decision, some kind of cultural wind blowing against kids, that is when the church must rise up. And so one thing we're doing at them before us is we are finding creative ways to take back that lost marriage ground. But it's not going to look the way that it has always looked. That's one of the things that we talked about with the pro-family legislators that were there in November. As we said, look, we're going to retake this loss marriage ground, but we're not going to do it in the name of a sacred institution and we're not going to do it in the name of protecting religious liberty. We are going to do it in the name of child protection. And so we have some model legislation that a couple people have already taken up through the WallBuilders Conference, which is very, very exciting, where in essence, what we're going to do is rediscover the public purpose of marriage, which has to do with the creation and raising of children. The other big area where there is a lot of not just like gray zone, but no zone in terms of like regulation is reproductive technologies. The process of making babies in laboratories, very often using the gametes of a third party who's often anonymous, sometimes implanting those embryos in wombs of women that you're hiring either domestically or foreign women. And in essence, what you've got here is a marketplace of children. That's what we've got in reproductive technologies today, a marketplace of children, where this industry, big fertility, destroys more embryonic life every year than Planned Parenthood does. This is not about making babies. This is about on demand designer babies shipped worldwide. The vast majority will never, ever see even a chance at life. They won't even be transferred to the womb. They're going to be sex selected or graded or genetically discarded before they even get to the point of a chance at growing inside some woman's uterus. And so there's not a lot of regulation around this area, even though it is an industry that is incredibly like hell bent on child victimization in the way that it is set up. So that's another thing we talk to the legislators about, is you want to go hard against big fertility. Here's some options. Do you want to just kind of go the very mild route without requiring anything them. Let's just make them tell us what they're doing with all of those lab made babies. And I'll tell you what, if people know if they understood that only 2 to 7% of babies created in a laboratory are born alive and hundreds of thousands are donated to research and experimented on every year. I bet public opinion would change pretty quickly. 

Rick Green [00:15:06] Yeah, well, so much of it is is education. And even even like your well, even the name of your organization them before us. Even the shift in the mindset to the children first and not being selfish about what's convenient for me and what's what what do I just want. Or you know, I'm putting the kids first. One of the things I saw on your website that I'd never thought about it makes total sense is because of the breakdown of the family and divorce and all those things, you have these you know, you say it this way split homes equals split personalities. The difficulty and the emotional damage and the just the confusion, all of those things that bleeds over into society and creates all kinds of problems for the economy and for government to have to come in and deal with. So the family unit and protecting the kid is not just going to protect the kid, it's going to protect society. And I think that's right. Really well, is make make people think about that bigger picture and not being selfish. And that's why these that these policies are so important. There's so many things we could talk about, so many things that need to be done. I want to make sure people go to your website thembeforeus.com thembeforeus.com  And then sign up, get on the email, you know, find out how they can help you. What is a good way for them basically to to to become a force multiplier for you to start educating the people in their circles. What would you like what would you get if you could say to. 50,000 people listening right now. Here's one thing you could go do in your realm of influence to help restore the family. What would that be? 

Kaite Foust [00:16:35] You have to understand that you are the agent of child protection that God has put on this earth. If you are a Christian, that is a non-negotiable. It is and always has been an aspect of the pure and undefiled religion before God that we are required to manifest as result of our salvation. And you cannot be ignorant about the impact of mothers and fathers on children, about the incredible evils being done in the world of reproductive technologies, about how divorce was actually the original redefinition of marriage. And it continues to be an absolute blight on the lives of children and our society. And I want you to be an expert on this. I want nobody to be able to stand against you on any of these topics. And for this specific audience, I would say the best resource is to go to them before Ask.com hit the menu at the top, look at resources for churches. We have a small group curriculum, video curriculum, seven part series. We will walk you through our entire first book, then before us, Why We Need a Global Children's Rights movement with no homework, no prep. Just start the video. Watch 20 to 25 minutes. There's Q&A involved. We talk a lot about these really sensitive issues like single parenting and the same sex couple living next door. And what about your infertile friend? And we are going to offer you the child centric truth, but also some of that where the rubber meets the road, sort of shepherding on those issues that intersect in your real life. You must defend kids. You are God's plan A for child protection. And a lot of the victimization of children is happening not just in the area of abortion, but in the area of marriage and family as well. 

Rick Green [00:18:04] I love this them before us dot com. I'm looking at the curriculum tab right now for all of you listening right now. So many of you have been through our biblical citizenship class so you've done eight weeks with a core group there in your church where you got did exactly what Katie saying you watch the video and then you had the discussions. I love what she just said. No homework and no prep. That's my kind of class. Yeah but but for those of you that have been through Bibbs, it this would be a great follow up because now you're getting specifically into the area of the family and you're going to learn what those action steps could be. I love this. Katie So them before us dot com. How many weeks is the is the course or the curriculum. 

Kaite Foust [00:18:41] Well I don't know if your hardcore like me that's doing like the 30 day Bible shred I mean you can get this done in like six hours. 

Rick Green [00:18:47] 30 day Bible shred. 

Kaite Foust [00:18:49] It's very everybody's everyone's doing the 30 day shred. So I mean, I'm somewhere I'm somewhere in the middle of Second Chronicles right now and I'm like, I swear I've heard this before. I know that the temples are sticking out of the tabernacle. So I'm like, Am I on repeat? What's going on? So, I mean, you can go like hard, intense or you can do it once a week for we have it's actually a six week course, but then the whole seventh week is just Q&A, like, okay, you know, my question is my mother is coming with her new boyfriend to stay over for the night. How do I talk to my kids about this? I mean, so it's like I in one part of my life, I am this the children's rights activist. But on the other side of things, I was a pastor's wife for 25 years. And so we've done all kinds of. So it's very property. 

Rick Green [00:19:34] Yeah. So. 

Kaite Foust [00:19:35] Yeah, shepherding, Yeah. So we want to take the heart of God, the love of God, into these situations where everybody's hurting the adult and the child. But then we take the very hard, we draw the actual red line in the sand and say, regardless of how adults are suffering, what they desire, how they identify, we never force kids to sacrifice for adults. It must always be them before us, especially in the biblical world view, where there is zero examples of God saying the weak sacrifice for the strong. In our worldview, it is always the strong who must sacrifice for the weak. And in matters of marriage, family, parenthood, fertility and pregnancy, the weak are always children. We sacrifice for them and never the other way around. 

Rick Green [00:20:21] I don't remember where I heard this and you may have used it and I missed it. But the you know, the the old way of doing things was that the floods coming. You know, you're holding your child above the water and drowning yourself. In our generation, they tend to just take the kid and push them under the water and stand on the kid so that they can survive. And that's the difference in the mindset. And we want to restore that old ethic. As you said, that biblical ethic or as your website says, I'm looking at right now where the fight for children's rights and the biblical ethic meet. That's right. Perfect description of exactly what this is them before us dot com them before us dot com. Katie God bless you Keep up the great work we've got to do this more often. Love to get you back and I definitely want to get our coaches that are out there We've got all these constitution coaches across the country. I think it's a great follow up class for them to use beyond our biblical citizenship. So good stuff. 

Kaite Foust [00:21:09] Yeah. Thanks, Rick. We've got lots of resources for companies, for churches. You know, we've got all kinds of ways that we want to equip you. So there's so much to talk about, but we're very grateful for WallBuilders. We love how you are taking these biblical truths into the policymaking realm, and we want to just support you in any. Way we can. 

Rick Green [00:21:27] Great stuff thembeforeus.com  Stay with us folks. We'll be right back with David inTim Barton. 

Rick Green [00:22:40] Welcome back to the show. Thanks for staying with us. Thanks to Katie Foust for joining us. And, of course, she's been helping with WallBuilders. Like you said before the interview, talking to legislators and helping equip them and then go testifying and helping in each of these states as well. So between her and Tim and all these other folks going out to these states and encouraging these, let all the freshmen legislators, we've got a bunch of new ones in Texas and in other states as well that really came out of the movement that are strong conservatives. I just mean, I'm really optimistic about what we might see in the next few months. 

Tim Barton [00:23:10] Yeah, guys, there really are so many opportunities. And one of the things we really appreciate about Katie and the strategy from them before us is they have done a really good job thinking outside the box. And she's mentioned she's been in our conference for the last several years, actually, Rick. We just celebrated 20 years of having this this conference. And we have the pro-family legislative network. People can find out more about it on our website. There's actually an entirely independent site dedicated to that as well. But we've been doing this conference for 20 years, and she's come the last several years. And the way she's been able to frame the discussion on topics and issues where sometimes there's Democrats and liberals that try to find this this ambiguity and then make it seem like it's a confusing issue. And she's able to come in very practically. And again, her her team organization, they're brilliant at being able to frame this and simplify it and say, guys, it's really not that complicated. If we remember the priority and the priority, why do we need family? Because. Because it's what's best for the kids. And so for kids, they need a certain kind of structure. And she walks through this and you go, Well, that's kind of hard to argue against what's best for kids. And thinking outside the box is something that I think we're seeing a lot of areas this year. Certainly things we talk about sometimes behind the scenes a little bit, because when it comes to legislation, you don't always want to reveal your strategy and give maybe opponents philosophical, more opponents time to develop a plan to weaken or hinder what you're trying to accomplish. But when it comes to them before us, it really is a brilliant strategy of putting the kids first, which makes so much sense. And it's hard to argue against the welfare and what's beneficial for kids. 

Rick Green [00:24:56] And as you can tell from Katie, she is a genuine soundbite machine because she thinks so concisely and so clearly. And I was just sitting here writing down a bunch of the things you said because they're so profound. But I'm going to kind of do this as a review. But she said, if you lose the marriage debate, it's children that lose. And most of us don't think in terms of the marriage debate, in terms of children, it's the marriage debate, she said, that split homes equals split personalities. True, you're an agent of child protection put here on Earth. And if you're a Christian, this is a non-negotiable. And that's really true. Matthew 18 Jesus said, look, if you cause one of these little ones to stumble, it'd be better for you to put millstone around your neck. And that's protecting the little ones. But the one that really got me that I think most people have lost. She says. You have to rediscover the public purpose of marriage. Marriage is not just an institution for us. There is a public purpose. And we had a question couple of weeks ago and foundation of Freedom Freedoms about is it really true the legislature used to have to grant a bill of divorce meant yes to get a divorce. It took the permission of the legislature because marriage was so important to the country, to the state, to the stability. And so we really do have to recoup that that institution of marriage. How important it is. That is one of three institutions God made. It's not one of two dozen. It's super important. And Katie does a great job of focusing on the institution, but also particularly on the children that as a result of that institution. Yeah, and it goes back to some of the questions we've had in the past about, you know, the state being involved in marriage. Why isn't it just the church that defines marriage or does marriages or whatever, But it does affect society so much. There has to be society has to have some rules for how marriage is going to work because it affects the children and it is the most important political unit. Such a great program. I really appreciate Katie joining us today. Thank you for listening today. You've been listening to the WallBuilders Show