Rick Green [00:00:07] Welcome to the intersection of faith and culture. It's The WallBuilders Show. We're taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical and constitutional perspective. Speaking a constitutional man. Big week this week and in the next few weeks as we have a new administration coming in and a new Congress that has just come in. And one of those members is with us, of course, David and Tim Barton are here. David's America's premiere historian and our founder at WallBuilders. Tim's a national speaker and pastor and president of WallBuilders. And I'm Rick Green, and Josh Brecheen is with us from Oklahoma. Congressman, great to have you back, man. 

Josh Brecheen [00:00:40] Glad to be with you guys. Always. 

Rick Green [00:00:42] Well, David and Josh, we'll talk horses for the next 30 minutes of Tim. And I do not keep this conversation on Congress. So we're going to start, Josh, by saying how was it on Friday where there are a lot of fireworks behind the scenes on the speaker's race, seem to seem to come out okay on the first vote. But we appreciated your tweet, I guess, the day before, two days before saying, look, my going to support Mike. This is not the time to have another, you know, break up. We need to get busy. 

Josh Brecheen [00:01:14] Right. Yeah. Look, there's a lot of us have had some real deep conversations with our speaker. He he, I think is President Trump described him. He's just extremely likable. And is my job to know that because the face of the Lord is on his lot, because he operates with . Mike is you know, he's joyful. He's kind. He doesn't slander people. And so Mike got a reputation. And that favor is because he adheres to the biblical truth that, you know, I know you guys have known him for years across the country. People, you know, recognize, you know, somebody that has been on the front lines, you know, on social issues because of his work with ADF and and multitude of organizations. Before he got in the Congress, there were some consternation. Some of that's come within Freedom Caucus, of which I'm a part, some some without and just some real frank conversations about, you know, making sure that we move forward with as much courage as we can to address the issues that have been just rolling over really for the last 40 years, the debt, deficit spending. And we just keep getting pummeled by this is why inflation is what it is. And so those real hard conversations, Frank conversations. But I can tell you there Mike has there are people that really care for him. It's not like it has been in years in the past or a lot of speakers were just people are afraid of them. People care for Mike Johnson because he's a good man. 

Tim Barton [00:02:43] Hey, Congressman, I. I am just curious from the outside looking in and as you said, you know, all of us, we've known Speaker Johnson for a lot of years. You obviously have known him a very different capacity than we have working with him. And from the outside, we see some of the criticism. We understand it frankly, and not dissimilar where all of us are married. And, you know, there's times that we can have a disagree with our spouse. It doesn't mean we don't love them, doesn't mean we don't want to support them and hope the best for them. 

Rick Green [00:03:16] Gabi. And make sure she's listening to what Tim says today. 

Tim Barton [00:03:20] But right. I mean, the fact that we don't even agree with ourselves all the time. So the idea I'd agree with somebody else all the time is really a silly position. But I know that there were some some very significant philosophical positions that you all had. I know there were some very principled positions. And your being the Freedom Caucus and I know just you as a believer, the way that you are motivated, looking at lots of things that is happening in Congress and knowing what some of the principal positions are and feeling like maybe there were some compromises and issues. I'm just setting that up as context because what it appeared to me from the outside was once President Trump was like, Look, this is the guy we need, this is the guy we're going with. And then when you have the added idea of when you have a Elon Musk of a Vivek Ramaswamy that are like, you know what we're going to go through, and even with the budget thing, right when they came back and they're like, Why are we funding all these crazy things? It seems like there's a different level of accountability, which just makes me wonder, does does that give anybody else more confidence where there might have been some some legitimate philosophical conflicts? Does it give you more confidence or maybe some of your colleagues do think, you know what, we now have some different accountability mechanisms and measures in place than we might have before. And so let's go forward, because at this point, if something happens from the speaker's roll leadership that seems silly out of line or. Right. Maybe against some some of these economic concerns there there is now a much larger 900 pound gorilla, maybe several of them in the room or on x that that might be able to to speak to this. Was was that any kind of factor for you or the colleagues that you could tell leading into this vote on Friday? 

Josh Brecheen [00:05:20] Well, I will just say for me and you guys know, there are members who say they care about things and, you know, maybe they pray that maybe they use their head too much. I think you guys have gotten to know me over the years. When I tell you it was a personal thing for me and I had a conversation with speaker months ago and anybody from a biblical viewpoint understand this. Like Johnson certainly understood this. When I looked at him and I said, The moment you stop being a David and I perceive that you've moved in to salt territory, I'm out. He kind of left. But that's it, Said That's it. And for any believer who knows what I'm talking about, it's when you start playing unto the masses, the audience, the popularity factor. That's what Saul did with where he knew from being somebody that carried the Lord's heart to somebody that was really just trying to just please man. And so for me, it was prayerfully derived for those that, you know, were at the end were really struggling people. You know, I held in high regard, you know, that I think Speaker Johnson holds in high regard and understands the frustration, the Chip Roy of the world. And, you know, when you're looking at the cost in hundreds of billions of dollars that the Democrats were, you know, involved with, but Republicans involved with as well in the last several months got added, you know, of painful adds to the mentor, spending it with a Social Security bill that got put on the floor. This is worse than people if you're just in the natural are going. We got to know that that in reconciliation which is that fancy way of saying it's only to take 50 votes in the Senate. Mr. Speaker, we want to know that you're going to lean in with the Jodey Arrington and another good, good West Texan who's got the budget chairmanship. And Jodey is passionate about returning our spending problems around. I'm on that committee with and just on that committee meeting and, you know, just to. It's just a an understanding that with X Elon Musk that Ramaswamy the world paying attention. This is maybe our only opportunity before we hit a fiscal cliff. There's a lot of people I respect that have been watching this thing for years that are saying this thing's not 20 years away. We think the fiscal cliff is within a decade or less away. And if we miss this opportunity with DOGE, with the with the flair that came in with the finally do something about our debt and deficit spending, that's 2 trillion every year or two plus trillion every year. No less than a decade ago it was a trillion. This thing is about to get to where we cannot manage it any longer. And Tom Coburn, I used to work for you could use this quote. He calls it this Latin term. It's called the abusive state of Maine from Thomas Jefferson. I'm going to try to pronounce the Latin term. Little had it memorized, but Thomas Jefferson used to say this this Latin term abuse, the stated state of man is what it means. And he would go on to say, in the for horse of this frightful team is public debt and in its train is wretchedness and oppression. And and so, you know, the four horsemen of this of this this train that's coming, this public debt, which James Madison called for, the public debt, the public curse. And it's train the horses that are running along. David, I know you're like in this the horses that are running long carrying this this wagon, what it's going to leave is wretchedness and oppression. We've got to do something about it. Yeah. 

Rick Green [00:08:52] Well, you can see David smile while you're talking horses, man. 

David Barton [00:08:56] Hey, Josh, let me ask you a question, because and watching this stuff with Mike and, you know, as you've just gone through, so much of that was like a 1 or 2 vote margin, 219, 218, etc.. And assuming that that Mike gets on board and goes with everything, my curiosity is and I'm going to throw out a number that this is just a fake number, I'm making it up. But I don't know. Let's say there's 20 members out of New York who are not the same fiscal kind of conservatives or maybe there's 40 or 50 in the House. Is that something that can be handled? Is that something Mike can help control? I mean, seems like you've got a lot of Republicans that are not the fiscal conservatives that we would really like to see. How much of a factor does that play in what you guys are going to have to do in the next year or two? 

Josh Brecheen [00:09:42] Well, look, it is the factor. that's what I think. If Mike was on the call, he would say, you know, as you said, the chip in number of people, you know, I can't control their votes. I can't control this moderate to left leaning element within our conference on these people that won by 1 or 2% votes. And they will lean in Democrat positions many times. And that's a sad reality of a very slim majority. So, yes, he cannot control them. What we're going to have to hope is, is that Vivek Elon Musk, that we can create such a grassroots fire that people start to really want to see government curbed its insatiable appetite to spend as much as they want the dollars returned back to them, that the mantra stops being. Why elect my member of Congress so they can bring home the bacon and people start really understanding the most effectual member of Congress Now when we've lost 20% of the dollar value just in the last four years, that's a $1,500 change for a family of four over over four years ago. Their buying power, 15,000 almost over the course of a year. The people get in their heads. Finally, the most effectual member of Congress is not somebody who's bringing me home the most government. It's the one who stopped the devaluation of the dollar within my pocket. And until we can intellectually understand that and people really from grass roots start clamoring from that, that that that's what you have to have. We have to cut spending. Then there's only so much the speaker of the House can do to get members to to follow those. And then that's what the hope is, is that X with every member now that's got so many people readily accessible to them and vice versa through social media that that that that grassroots element will arise. 

Rick Green [00:11:37] Yeah. You're saying that that that outside influence pushing in even while Congress is meeting could be maybe more than we've ever seen in our in our lifetimes. You know, typically after the election, there's not as much listening to everybody. But the pressure is so much more palpable. You can feel it because of the social media that you're seeing Congress feel that. And there's a chance that with the efforts of the president and, you know, those efforts, I think all of that could potentially cause Congress to act different than it has in the past, because it is a an impossible position that Mike is in in terms of, you know, that 1 or 2 vote difference. And even when I've been critical of the decisions of strategy, and that's what the thing. I've always said that it's like I'm not in the room. I don't know. And you know. You may not be in the room every time those decisions are made. By, you know, is the Congress. Better than we do. You know how much room there is for real change with such a close vote? And what I'm hearing you say is it may be the best chance we've seen in our lifetime, even with the close vote because of the grassroots being loud enough, effective enough through the social media and through the channels that we have. And now an administration that wants the same thing. Is that a fair enough summary of what you were or. 

Josh Brecheen [00:12:52] Yes, you said it more succinctly. If we don't if we miss this window, this next two years to really implement the reconciliation of spending cuts, you know, we're going to be passionate about making sure that there's not a $4 trillion tax increase, that we can make permanent the tax relief. But with the spending cuts, that's where the courage has to arise among Republicans on a platform of fiscal restraint. If that courage does not arise, then we will do what we've done too many times before when we had the trifecta in control of the White House and the Senate and now the Congress again, because we will lose once again the trust of the American people to be a party of fiscal restraint. 

Rick Green [00:13:33] It seems like a once in a once in a lifetime, maybe once in a century opportunity. And, you know, when you got elected this this your second term? A third term to remember now. 

Josh Brecheen [00:13:41] A second term, a second. 

Rick Green [00:13:43] Yes, they could term when we first had you on. So that would have been two years ago. I mean, I can't tell you, brother, how excited all three of us were to have somebody that has the common sense, the intellectual ability to take these concepts and be able to push for the truth, but also have that biblical foundation as well. I know you're not you know, there's not a majority in Congress of the same mindset and the same worldview, but there are more maybe than we've seen in a long time, and they're finding their voices. Do you see a lot of freshmen coming in this time that it will be like you were last time coming in? 

Josh Brecheen [00:14:20] I have not gotten to know a large number of donors, a few that I can point to, you know, that have come in that I know are people that are men of faith, women of faith. I said, Man, I don't know that I can point to any women that I've met that come in and I know their background there. But from some gentlemen, of course, you know, it's it's it's interesting. There's another element that Mike Johnson plays. He he does have such a deep rudder. You guys know it because you've known him personally. I know it because I know him personally. He does have a deep rudder. And when the microphones aren't off, he's the same guy. And I watch him minister to members of Congress, which you may well say by fruit, you know, you're supposed to know tree fruit, and we'll say that it's probably really something they've never heard, definitely never heard from the speaker of the House. And so that's another element that it's it's really exciting to me to watch Mike Johnson in that role because he is mentoring these people and he's doing what was so common, you know, in our founding era where we know so much of our of our founding fathers had to deep rooted in their faith. They were. And, you know, in public office, it's just been so sad even on a state level. You all with WallBuilders you know how how you know, state level it's hard to find people who do more than just claim Christianity that they actually are able to actively defend what they believe and do it with an understanding of how it's historical and how it's propped America up and blessed America, not just something that's just an aside. 

Tim Barton [00:16:04] One of the things, too, I, I know is, as we're hearing you say this, it's one of the reasons that we have loved Mike and we're so happy to have somebody like that there. But you have to have somebody there who is not just a lover and follower of Jesus. Right. Although that's we want that person to be that. You need someone that's competent to lead and principled in their leadership. And it's certainly one of the things that we've prayed for, Mike, is that God would give him wisdom and courage, right? The wisdom to do the right thing, the courage to stand up when it's hard. 

Josh Brecheen [00:16:38] You know, now that the Democrats are moved aside because he did have to cut deals with the Democrats because they had control of the Senate. Right. I mean, that's the he had to have 60 votes. Now that that thing set aside the test before us now with all Republicans, that matches what you're saying. The courage has to be on display now. Yeah. 

Tim Barton [00:16:56] Well, and so one of one of my curiosities and I and we're almost out of time. It's real quick. What do you think? We from the outside are very prayerfully optimistic. We think God is on the move. And because God is on the move, it makes us very hopeful. We're seeing this all around the nation. And we think the fact that that God allowed Trump to be the president is a sign that God's not done with America. Right. We're coming up on 2026 at 250, the anniversary of America as a nation since 1776. So many things that we are prayerfully optimistic about. Do you sense any optimism or is there so much of a spiritual battle that you're in the middle of that? I'm just wondering, for everybody listening, is this something that we should take some some hope away from this as we pray, or should we maybe be more fervent in our prayer that the spiritual battle is waging so hard that it feels heavy and hard in DC? And even though obviously God's still on the move, that man, we're not sure how well or how much it's going to happen, how quick, because you're feeling something on a deeper level than we see from the outside. Did that make sense or do they just say really convoluted that it's both? 

Josh Brecheen [00:18:08] It's both. There is a real spiritual battle. There is. I mean, I seen something out that I know David knows my senior pastor at my church doing sheriff. He taught today I'm in D.C., but did online church my last today. And one of the things he was talking about was the fear of man comes out of Proverbs 29. It has a snare. And and so I put that message and send it to some colleagues in the Freedom Caucus. And just as a reminder that plus what is equal admonition was that to fix your forehead like Flint and you know, he said, I'll make your forehead just as strong as those that, you know, want to operate wickedness, basically. And my admonition and I also, you know, had in there. James three we also want to do gentleness without hypocrisy, unwavering, but also pure peaceable, right? James 317 But it's both. There's a real battle. There's a real desire for people to just want to ride the coattails of Donald Trump and enjoy their title, enjoy the the Republican trifecta and not do the things that it's going to take. We're going to be a country that that has. The chance to escape history as a body set up for self-governance that is, has no restraint. We're chubby, we're bloated, we're fat world beasts, and we've got to go on an exercise regiment because so only so long can you eat like this and not have a financial heart attack. And so God's grace has been with us. But the gluttonous spending in D.C. has got to come to an end and we have to fix our forehead like Flint. And we have got to be the people that they can come along, people that may not have the courage that they can't win reelection if they do the hard things. You they come on, man. You can do this. People want leadership. They they just want people to be, you know, these these veins that carry the wind one direction just to show you where it's coming from and where it's going. 

Rick Green [00:20:09] Yeah. Well, Josh, thanks for being a flint for headed stuff. The right way to say that. A Flint four headed cowboy. That. David, I know you got a question before we go to break. Go ahead. 

David Barton [00:20:21] Just a real quick one, because this is the first time I've seen in my lifetime, I think a president come in as prepared as appeared that Trump was. He came in with so many of those Schedule C appointments, ready to go, started, just roll them out at a rapid rate. Undersecretaries, deputy staff, everything else rolling really fast. And we're hearing that. All right, Dems are going to try to do what they can to slow down a lot of his nominations. My curiosity is with all these guys that we've got, like the Elon Musk and Vivek and those guys. If if if the Senate Democrats slow walk some of those nominations, does that affect their ability to do their job? Can they go in as acting directors or whatever and still do the job? Or are we waiting on the Senate to have to confirm some things and approve some things before they can start moving some of the reforms that we think are coming? 

Josh Brecheen [00:21:14] Well, David, I would bluster through an answer, but I am too inexperienced, never fit in an executive department to be an answer that. My hope is, is that the Senate gets on with it because we've got something called reconciliation. We got to do something else the last couple of days. He wants to get one bill and we've got to be running it by February. I'm on the Budget Committee will set the resolution that will set the top line numbers, that sends it to the authorizing committees. And that is all hands on deck. That starts with Lindsey Graham's committee on the Senate side. That starts with Joe Jenkins committee that I'm on on the House side. And then that is then filtered down to the authorizing committees to figure out how can you find the cuts to be able to pay for the border, things to pay for deportation for those that we know are here that are inflicting great harm on the American people, the criminal element, etc.. And then, you know, you've got the tax cuts that are going to be a part of that. And the things that the president has been a high priority in addition to just making things permanent. So if they don't if they slow walk these by basic constitutional role, no doubt, if they slow walk that, then reconciliation is going to be problematic. And we have we have to at least June, that's the date for our debt ceiling. We're going to have to be able to also with that reconciliation package that our debt ceiling. So time is of the essence. They've got to get these nominees put in place. 

Rick Green [00:22:49] I've got to move quick. Hey, Josh, God bless you, man. Keep up the great work and look forward to getting you back for a report on the first few days of the administration. 

Josh Brecheen [00:22:58] I always love being with you guys. Blessings to what you do for what you do. My hey, I'll tell you this quickly. Mark Meadows, former cheif staffer for Trump, caught me on C-Span, taking my oath of office on my founder's Bible. He sent me a text and said, Is that on this Bible that he said, And so he recognized it. I took the oath on it. 

Rick Green [00:23:21] It's great. I love it. I love it. It's ask you guys, Josh, for keeping from Oklahoma. Stay with us, folks. We'll be right back on the WallBuilders 

Rick Green [00:24:37] Welcome back. Thanks for staying with us here on the intersection of faith and culture, The WallBuilders Show. And special thanks to Congressman Josh Brecheen for joining us today as well. Appreciate that insight into what's going on there in Congress. Of course, you know, today was our yesterday I'm sorry, was uneventful compared to four years ago on January 6th. And what an opportunity to thank God for a landslide victory so that it wasn't close and there wasn't the same chaos as four years ago. And, you know, look, I fully recognize that the leftist certainly the Democrats are you know, they wanted it to be smooth yesterday so that they could say this is how it should always be and how dare those Republicans of four years ago in 2020. Listen, it's easy to stand up there and act like a statesman when you know you got beat so bad you don't have any kind of argument for why any of the electoral votes should be questioned or challenged. Much different story when you know that the election was stolen from you, or at least the Constitution was violated in the way the election was conducted in the battleground states. Totally different animal. Four years ago. And that's why January 6th, four years ago, was so different, because there were so many Americans calling on Congress to investigate the electoral votes This time around, no need for that. And so yesterday, it was essentially uneventful as the electoral vote was certified for Donald J. Trump and for J.D. Vance. And thank you, Lord, thank you for letting us have that peaceful transition and peaceful process. And I would encourage all of our listeners to be praying over the next couple of weeks as we prepare for the inauguration of President Trump and Vice President Vance and and pray for that to continue to be a peaceful transition. We sure appreciate your listening today. Make sure that you check out our websites. WallBuilders.com for most of our programs and all of our materials available to you. And then of course, WallBuilders.show for the radio program and catch up on any shows you might have missed, missed list or missed any of those shows you might have missed over the last couple of weeks. Thanks so much for listening to The WallBuilders Show.