Rick Green [00:00:07] Welcome the intersection of faith and culture. Thanks for joining us on the WallBuilders Show, on Rick Grenier with David Barton and Tim Barton. And we've got Congressman Moolenaar joining us a little later on to be talking about China. And of course, we're right here at the end of the year. In fact, guys, this will be wow, I just realized this is our last program of 2024 and then we're going to roar into 2025. I'm looking forward to the next year. How about you guys? 

Tim Barton [00:00:32] Absolutely. I think it's also interesting that President Carter recently passed away, which referring to him looking back, he was someone who was one of the older school kind of Democrats, someone who actually loved America, someone who wanted America to be better. Who just had terrible policies that objectively. Right. You could say objectively he was not a good president. And it's not necessarily because he was a bad man who had bad intentions and motives, because after he was president, all the things he did. Was it Habitat for Humanity, which I don't care which organization he was part of helping. Yeah, right. Do incredible things around the world. But when you look at what happened with the the inflation, the energy crisis, the Iranian hostage deal, even when the Soviet Union's taken over land in Afghanistan. And so he wants to politically posture. And so he says that the Olympians can't go to Moscow because that's how we're going to show the Soviet Union their wrongs by punishing American athletes. So many things that especially from those on the outside looking in, we're going, man, what? Why are we doing this? It doesn't make any sense that the guy who said, well, we really should maybe just learn to live with less, you know, because we don't have the money. If you don't have enough money for gas in your car, just ride a bike. And that's probably okay, too. Again, like just terrible policy decisions. But it's interesting, as we look back at 2024, I do think that probably President Carter on his way out was like, thank you, God, for Joe Biden, because I am now no longer the worst president of the last, you know, however many decades. 

Rick Green [00:02:05] And you just gave me an epiphany, Tim. You really did. As you were describing Jimmy Carter. I never thought about Jimmy Carter like this. So thank you. You were just describing him in my mind. What I heard you saying. He really was the first of the weak men. In other words, he he was a man of personal faith, but he did not apply biblical perspective. And he wasn't tough like you even think about the Democrats before him, John Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, FDR, Harry Truman. I mean, Jimmy Carter was the first president that really just was weak. He his policies were trying to play nice. It was that it was that, you know, that Baptist Southern Baptist guy that just wanted to be nice to everybody and didn't realize he's actually being anti biblical. And there's nothing about being nice that is biblical being kind. Yes. But anyway, I don't know if that makes sense to you guys, but as you were describing it, that hit me. Wow. He was the first like nice guy, meaning weak guy. And the weak policies made America weak. And as part of why Reagan came roaring in in 81 with that strength. 

David Barton [00:03:05] Yeah. And that's a big deal is you can't afford to be weak if everybody else is weak. But when you got bullies all over the world and there's bullies all over the world and they don't care about whether you're weak or not, in a matter of fact, they would love for you to be weak so they could stomp all over you. And that's really what we got from Joe Biden. And that's where we haven't seen China rise to the level it has in recent years. China is now by far the biggest competitor we've got. But the problem with that is in schools, we don't teach that China's an enemy anymore. We don't have enemies. We all get along. And so particularly with the younger generation, they're really connected to China with so much the technology, so much of the so many things that come out, tech talk, everything else. And so it's time for a leader to get tough again with China. And we've actually had a friend in Congress that. 

Tim Barton [00:03:50] Let me let me interrupt for a second. I know that there's a lot we talk about with China and especially with congressmen coming on and moments. But as you're saying, that China is an enemy, I would say not only are kids not learning that most Americans don't know why China's enemy and part of the problem is we no longer have a clear, objective standard of morality of right and wrong. And so we don't even know how are measuring that China's not a good nation or a bad nation or are they doing bad things? Why are they the enemy where most kids don't know that there are actual slave camps over in China and there's child labor? And I mean, you can go down a very long list of why China is not really a good moral nation on top of the fact that that they are posing themselves as an actual threat to America, where they have spies embedded in America, they're stealing American technology, they're trying to cripple the American economy. There's a lot of things they are doing as a very, very bad player which positions them. That is you're pointing to of why they're the enemy. But but not only do kids not know that, I think a lot of adults don't know that today. They don't recognize who China is and how China operates. 

David Barton [00:04:57] So John Moline, our good friend, we have been on congressional delegations with on Google trips overseas and he was appointed by by the House of Reps. Presenters to look at a select committee to start bringing out all the stuff that people really don't know about how bad China is. And it's perfect timing with Trump coming and Trump is going to be a tough on China position, which he needs to be because they generally are an enemy. They're not just a competitor. They are an enemy. And so John Moolenaar has spent the last two years looking into all the bad things going with China. And it's going to be great to have him on and catch up and all of us learn more about why China is actually an enemy. 

Rick Green [00:05:34] Congressman John Moolenaar our guest when we return. Stay with us. You're listening to The WallBuilders Show. 

Congressman John Moolenaar [00:06:54] Hey, thanks so much for having me. Great to be with you. 

Tim Barton [00:06:57] Okay. Well, dad, as you and I are here in studio. We actually have video so we can see John. He can see us and we're talking through some of these things. But as we were talking about and setting up, there's there's so much that people don't understand what's happening in the international realm. Of course, we hear about Russia, we hear about Ukraine, maybe even Syria, and then, of course, Israel. But there are some major players and maybe a major player, Congressman, that is being overlooked. You have had an opportunity to do a lot investigating this, and you're actually on a select committee that is is looking into things with China. So first of all, if you'll back up and tell us, we know there's committees. 

David Barton [00:07:39] And actually. John, we all go back to the previous days. We've done trips together and and John's just been a great, great guy. And, you know, you're actually the head of that select committee and you were appointed head of that committee. And it really is a big deal. And kind of explain the difference. You were between a select committee and just a general committee, as you guys have in Congress. 

Congressman John Moolenaar [00:07:58] Sure. If you think of it, a select committee has a specific focus that we're able to zero in on a topic. But the laser like and our topic is the strategic competition with the Chinese Communist Party. And so we're very focused on this competition, whether it's economic, military, we're focusing on their human rights abuses. But the purpose of this is really that, you know, Leader McCarthy was speaker at the time that, you know, he said that there were two things that kept him up at night, the national debt and our relationship with China. And so we've been focusing on this because it's of strategic importance to our current speaker. It's a very bipartisan committee focusing on deterring aggression by the Chinese Communist Party. 

Tim Barton [00:08:52] Now, Congressman, as you're acknowledging as bipartisan, that was one of our curiosity is, is is this something that for us, I feel like this should be a more obvious thing for those that are conservative, economically motivated to recognize that China's not our friend, that they don't want to be our friend now. They want to make money from us. They they want to use us for their benefit. But how well do do you think your your colleagues in Congress, maybe even the Senate, how well do they recognize the threat that China is? And then I'd love to get into what kind of threat China actually is. 

Congressman John Moolenaar [00:09:27] Sure. Well, I think to your point, I think more and more Congress is waking up to this fact. You know, for 30 years, we viewed China as a developing country and we viewed them as ways to partner with them. And and economically, they were considered to be kind of a friendly neighbor developing. We love the Chinese people. But the thing we forgot really is that it's governed by the Chinese Communist Party and under Xi Jingping, they have become more aggressive at home abroad and are a threat to our allies, a threat to the United States and their neighbors. 

Tim Barton [00:10:05] Well, one of the things we actually talked about on the program, I don't know, maybe it's been a couple of weeks now. Most Americans do not recognize that the Chinese Communist Party is responsible for more deaths than Nazi Germany was in World War Two. I mean, people have no idea. And this is really related to helping people understand the danger and destruction of communism, that communism is not a good system of form of government. It does lead to death and destruction in a lot of ways. And maybe even with kind of that that underpinning. If we're looking at China, why would we consider China a threat? And I'm asking this for. Right, Just the average American I'm the average American is looking going. You know what? I'm just trying to get better grocery prices. I'm just trying to provide for my family. I'm trying to put gas in my car. Why do we care about China? Why is this a big deal? What would you tell them? 

Congressman John Moolenaar [00:10:59] Well, I tell them, first of all, as you point out, the communist system is devastating. They are two different administrations. The Biden administration and the Trump administration have identified that there is a genocide happening to the uighur people in China. That's a very serious human rights issue. They clamp down on the church, all sorts of things. At the same time, they are an economic powerhouse and a military powerhouse. And they've described their relationship with Russia as they know limits partnership. They're allying with Russia, North Korea, Iran. They're fomenting all sorts of challenges. They're basically funding Russia's war against Ukraine. And so when you think of what we dealt with in the Cold War of a military powerhouse being the Soviet Union, we've never dealt with the threat of an economic powerhouse, a military powerhouse, and one that's aggressive is China with these international goals. The Soviet Union was always weak economically and and weren't as innovative. China is high tech and they are threatening cyber issues, all sorts of challenges, even in outer space. 

David Barton [00:12:17] John, if I can jump in. It seems like to me that I've heard more about the Chinese doing stuff to America in the last 3 to 4 years than in my lifetime, whether it's buying land around military bases or, you know, Tik Tok and interfering with social media, hacking into businesses. And I mean, what are they what are they doing to America? How are they view in America? And why is that a direct threat to who we are? Because I don't think most people are aware of how active they are in going after us at this point. 

Congressman John Moolenaar [00:12:45] Well, they the whole survival of the Chinese Communist Party is what they care about and they view freedom. Our religious liberty, our other freedoms that we enjoy in this country is a threat to that. And so they try and combat that in every way possible. They've been hacking our technology. They are threatening militarily. You know, when you think about when we can build one ship, they can build 230 ships. So they are on a wartime footing for their military apparatus. And and, you know, it's really the issue of communism. And and they hope to see that succeed. They view what happened in Russia with Mikhail Gorbachev as a failure, as a weakness. We view that as freeing up a lot of the Eastern Bloc countries. So we're dealing with a very different threat than we have before, and we need to be mindful of it. 

Tim Barton [00:13:44] Well, even, Congressman, thinking of the threat that we're dealing with, maybe never before, and I don't think it's unusual for other nations to send spies right into nations. And they try to gather intelligence. But when we talk about I mean, there were members of Congress, right, that that were having sexual relationships with Chinese spies. It's just mind boggling how far up the ladder some of these spies have been able to reach. And even if we talk about there was an article I saw recently where there was, I think, some kind of financial committee in Congress that identified even groups like BlackRock, one of the largest investment organizations. And there's a lot of problems we would have with BlackRock and a lot of what they do. But the fact that they were taking profits and they were funneling money into China that was helping build and grow the Chinese military again, this is this is BlackRock. Most people think of what just like your investment and your retirement and that's how you grow your money. There's actually organizations helping fund the Chinese military. How much and there might be things that you can't tell us. I recognize that asking the question you might be having to filter your answers based on certain intelligence, but how far has China really infiltrated into American culture? Because I've even seen reports of their influence at universities, various places. How far does this reach and how much of a concern should it be for the average American? 

Congressman John Moolenaar [00:15:09] Well, it's a huge concern. And as you point out, some of these major investment firms have been investing America's dollars, you know, even the congressional retirement system. You know, we were investing in companies that partner with the People's Liberation Army. You know, that's crazy when you consider that some of these firms, $6 billion of investments have been partnering with either firms that are partnered with the Chinese military or even guilty of human rights abuses. So that's a considerable situation that when you talk about the influence they have culturally, you know, they come at it from a united front where they try and influence the culture. But you have to recognize that they're advocating for communism, Chinese communism, and that every Chinese national can be leveraged by the Chinese Communist Party. And so what they do is for students who are studying here or businesspeople who are working here, they can leverage them to the point of threatening their family members at home if they don't get the information they want. So we've seen incidents in Michigan, my home state, where you have five Chinese national students who are up filming war games at Camp Greely, a military facility, and directly related to the Chinese Communist Party. And those students are being leveraged by the Chinese Communist Party. So that's that's a huge concern. So with all the things that you've done over the last couple of years in this select committee, and I mean, you've done a deep dive into it, what did you find that surprised you the most in all that you found, all that you discovered over the last two years? Well, first of all, how much were intertwined and dependent on China for materials, critical minerals that we rely on in our supply chains domestically, but also for military applications, the amount of investments and research that's being done in a joint way with entities that are affiliated with the Chinese Communist Party. But it's also how they influence financially. So, for instance, when you think of Hollywood, we met with people in Hollywood who will not have a character like a villain who is affiliated with the Chinese Communist Party, because not only do they know that that film won't be shown in China, but they also realize that any film in the future that anyone is involved with there will be banned and they will be blacklisted. And so they use their financial leverage and our dependance on their market against us in so many ways. 

Tim Barton [00:17:55] Congressman, one of the things I'm curious about, I would suspect President Trump is aware of some of these challenges. Do you think that there might be some policy or position changes that we could expect? Obviously, as he's promoted like the America First kind of movement, one of the concerns that certainly a lot of us recognize when Covid happened and then you've had a lot of interruption in the trade markets and people begin to ask questions like so much of our medication, it's being done overseas and there are so many things we're dependent on and maybe we shouldn't be as dependent. Do you think, number one, President Trump recognizes the challenges with China? And is there a reason to be optimistic that maybe some of these things will change? And then do you think there is a growing movement or effort to try to bring some of those production of whatever it is, you know, medical needs, good services, whatever it is, back into America? What are your thoughts? 

Congressman John Moolenaar [00:18:52] I believe President Trump is very aware of this and he will bring more supply chains back to the United States for manufacturing and for our critical needs. So I am optimistic about that. I think he's also going to pursue a trade policy that's based on reciprocity. For so long, we've allowed China to steal our intellectual property, do unfair trade practices. There really haven't been consequences. I think President Trump will have a policy of reciprocity. So I'm optimistic. I think we've got a lot of work ahead of us. We have our economies are very intertwined and we need to make sure we don't allow these strategic technologies to get into the hands of China so they can use those against us. 

David Barton [00:19:36] John, I mean, we get a lot of buzz going across just what we do, and I'm not sure how much of it is actual real. But going back to China, it seemed like that China seemed to be putting a lot of their folks across our borders illegally because we had no borders. And so if those folks were indeed genuine or, you know, I don't know if that was somebody's scare tactics or whatever. 

Tim Barton [00:19:58] Well, but the military age males, I mean, there's actual. That's right. Footage. There's videos of military age males, Asians coming across the southern border where they would often be dressed the same. They have the same backpacks. And you're like, okay, this this wasn't just a happy accident. Certainly this was planned and coordinated on some level, to your point. 

David Barton [00:20:17] So with that, do you think that's a genuine threat or is that something that we were all scared of that wasn't a threat? And if it is, do you think that we know enough about those folks to be able to get them out of the country now that we know where they are or can we track them down? Or is that one of the failures of the Biden administration will never be able to recover from? 

Congressman John Moolenaar [00:20:32] Well, it's a great question. You know, just the statistics I've seen have shown that Chinese nationals illegal, illegally crossing the border tripled to 78,000 this past year. So that is a huge security issue. You know, securing the border is for our national security. And I think President Trump will be on that day one. But secondly, you know, I think there are a variety of you know, we've seen people on the terrorist watch list coming across our southern border. We've seen Chinese nationals. And we don't know do your answer is, you know, we don't know. We can't characterize now. And so, you know, like with students, like with others, many may be wanting just to explore freedom and live in a country where they can live the American dream. Others will be leveraged by the Chinese Communist Party and they will have their tentacles in them in a way that will be nefarious intent. And so that's where we have to be able to crack down on a secure border and then making sure we get people deported who are a threat to the United States security. 

David Barton [00:21:43] It's been really good, really helpful. What can individual Americans do and what should they do? What would you recommend Americans do with this issue? 

Congressman John Moolenaar [00:21:52] Well, first of all, you know, it's it's not that we're against the Chinese people. We love the people of. China. But what we are against is an oppressive regime that is oppressive for the Chinese people and is threatening America. It's threatening our allies, and we need to be aware of it. You know, when when the Soviet Union shot Sputnik into the air, it was a wake up call to America. We haven't had a specific Sputnik moment with respect to China, but there have been multiple issues that reveal this growing threat. And we need an all hands on deck bipartisan approach to deal with it. 

Tim Barton [00:22:28] Congressman, would you recommend then for listeners all across America, is this something that. Are there areas they should encourage their congressmen? Obviously, the majority of our listeners are people of faith. We're going to be praying in the midst of this that God gives your wisdom and President Trump. But are there are there other action steps that we could or should be taking that might help in this situation? 

Congressman John Moolenaar [00:22:51] Well, I think one thing is we could encourage them to ask their universities to decouple from Chinese universities. We saw there were over 9000 research papers that were written by U.S. and Chinese professors. Some of that research was done to benefit the Chinese military. And a lot of these joint educational things are nothing more than the Chinese influence in America. So that's one concrete thing. Also, demand that our taxpayer dollars do not go to fund companies or entities affiliated with the Chinese Communist Party. You write in President Biden's Inflation Reduction Act, you know, there are billions of dollars that could go and fund our adversaries. And so that's another concern. But also, just let me say, you know, President Reagan always had an eye towards reconciliation and hope for the people of the Soviet Union. I think we need to be praying for the people of China and even the softening of Xi Jinping's heart that he would step down from this aggressive totalitarian nature, that he's pursuing. 

Tim Barton [00:24:02] Such good insight and encouragement for us as individuals and certainly as believers. Congressman, we are so grateful for you. We're grateful for your leadership, for all you're doing. And we definitely are going to continue to pray for you, the people of Michigan, to be proud of you. And we are very proud to call you friend. Thank you for taking time and being with us today. 

Congressman John Moolenaar [00:24:21] Thank you, Tam. Thank you, David. Great to be with you today. 

Tim Barton [00:24:24] Well, Congressman, thank you so much for spending time with us today. We're sure grateful for you and appreciate all you do. All right, Rick and Dad, let's let's get and talk about this. As we were talking about some of who China is and what China's been doing and what people don't even know. Maybe, maybe do what a select committee is, why it matters. What did you guys hear that stood out to you? 

Rick Green [00:24:43] Well, first of all, I'm just thankful Donald Trumps all of this, what, ten years ago? I mean, he came into office in 2016 talking about the dangers of China. And he's been very firm on that in this campaign in 2024. So at least we're going to have somebody at the helm. You know, Tim, you were talking about we talked about the weakness of Jimmy Carter earlier and David, how that leads to bullies. So we need somebody who knows how to stand up to a bully. 

David Barton [00:25:04] And, you know, even with all the stuff that John covered, there's still so much more we didn't get into for for example, there's a congressional commission on organ harvesting in China. China literally is harvesting the organs of their people cell, and they're doing it to Christians. They're persecuting Christians are killing Christians. There are slavery of Christians. There are so much else that goes on with China and most people are completely unaware of it. Now they're also trying to knock down Taiwan. You know, Taiwan kind of went back to China several years ago. And Trump has already taken a very strong position on that because China is trying to force Taiwan back into the Chinese slavery side. And, you know, not not not freedom, but slavery. So there's a lot the Trump is already working on at this point. But that is just such a big enemy and it is so good, Rick, as you said, to have somebody who recognizes they're a bully like Reagan did back in the day after Carter and stand up. And so the Chinese already know what they're getting into with with President Trump, which is good for America, that they're they're a much greater enemy than what we've heard. And I thought what John said was really important, too, that even Hollywood is kowtowing to China now. They won't make any Chinese character villain because they want to sell all their movies and China make all the money. So we're not even doing a fair portrayal of what's out there. Thank God for people like John Moolenaar who have that moral clarity and for President Trump, who is willing to take and do something with with the Chinese because they really are an enemy. 

Rick Green [00:26:27] Great update on a vitally important issue. Of course, we'll be talking more about that 1 in 2025. And speaking of that. Be sure to tune in tomorrow. New Year's Day. We're going to be talking about what's coming in 2025, a little recap on 2024, but more importantly, where we're headed in 2025. Thanks so much for listening today to The WallBuilders Show