Rick Green [00:00:07] Welcome to Intersection of Faith and Culture is The WallBuilders Show where we take on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical and constitutional perspective. Here with David Barton, America's premiere historian and our founder at WallBuilders, Tim Barton is a national speaker, pastor and president of WallBuilders. And I'm Rick Green, America's constitutional coach. You can find out more about all three of us at our main website wallbuilders.com that's wallbuilders.com. For all the great tools and different materials we've got coming out and you can also tap into our radio archives at WallBuilders.show and you can make that one time or monthly contribution there at WallBuilders.com by coming alongside us, putting some fuel on the tank so we can reach more pastors, more teachers, more legislators, all the different things that we're doing to influence the culture. We appreciate you being part of that, David and Tim, talking about influencing the culture, doing that well, right. The left has always done that, worked for 50 years, has done that well, and movies and music and and education and everything else. We're getting better. We're getting better. We're starting to articulate better. We're starting to do better at dismantling the arguments of the left. And later in the program, Allie Beth Stuckey will be with us to talk about how the left has taken those words like love and tolerance and everything else to manipulate honestly folks in the church. So we'll be talking about her new book. But this is this is critical, man. I do think we're getting better, though, don't you think? We we're starting to see some leaders on our side get a lot better at what's the right, I guess, countering the arguments of the left when they use our language. 

David Barton [00:01:30] Yeah, I would say that we're definitely getting better, but I would say that in some ways we're still not engaged like we should be. Our leaders need a lot more support when they get engaged, and part of it is confidence. I think part part is confidence and part in some areas is fear. People don't like getting involved because they don't like being attacked. They don't like being diminished. And there's always a fear that I don't know if I'm going to be able to respond to what they say. I don't know the arguments. And and so I think there's a lack of confidence sometimes in there, a fear that go with it. And so actually be equipped, just be able to say, hey, it doesn't matter what topic you bring up, I'm going to be able to respond some because here's a framework or grid of ideas that we can use. And even with Jesus, he would often respond by asking questions back rather than try to answer every question they asked. And I've often been in interviews where that the interviewer was simply just throwing question after question after question. What are you listening to? My answers just had this list of questions they wanted to do, and you've got to be able to turn that and I think that that would help. But I agree, Rick. I think that we're getting more confident. We're starting to get the other side of the story out to some degree. But we just need a lot more people doing that. And they can it's something they can easily be trained well. 

Tim Barton [00:02:36] And that is you're saying even the reference of Jesus asking questions, it really was about who gets to frame the conversation. And so often we have watched the left frame, the entire discussion, the entire debate. I guys, we've been talking even off program about Megan Basham book Shepherds for Sale and how we have and now can see inside the church where there are pastors that have aligned with organizations that are not friendly to the Bible, that are not friendly to the gospel. And they have begin to take some of those fundamental Christian kind of words and verbiage. And that is become now a leading argument where if you talk about immigration. Well, but but we need to be loving if you talk about human sexuality with kids and protecting kids and as transgender and boys playing girls sports, but we need to be loving. And they've taken some of these mantras and they're using sometimes Christian vocabulary to frame the conversation. They're not being honest in the way they are framing this. And so dad, to your point of asking questions. It is worth going back to make sure let's let's define this term, because when you're saying we care about justice, well, what is justice? What is what does that mean? Well, we we should be loving to people. Okay. What does that mean? Because I have two little girls and because I love them, I am going to try to prevent them from doing things that harm themselves. If if, for example, the stove top is on and I'm going to I'm going to try to make sure, hey, don't touch that, that's going to hurt you. And there are things you do as a parent that you put up boundaries because you love, that there's times that we discipline because we love. I say no, because I love. And so this this kind of narrative that is shaped that well, if you love people, you should be the accepting and supporting of all of their decisions and behavior. That's illogical. And certainly it's not biblical and even dad as you're acknowledging sometimes people just lack the confidence to do this. One of the things that I guess for all of us, we are now very comfortable if we give a presentation and there's going to be an open mike Q&A at the end. I don't think any of us are scared of any kind of question people are going to bring and throw at us. And part of what's giving us a confidence is we have done this so many times, we have navigated so many Q and A's. And at this point, there's very few questions that we have not heard before. And part of why that matters is because once you engage in these conversations, you are learning how to chart a path. To answer these questions the best way you can with the most truthful, honest, loving information. And so then when that question comes up again, well, this is no big deal because I've answered that question now 17 times on these last however many months I've been traveling and doing things. And so I think that part of part of what matters is that we do start engaging in these conversations. We do start asking questions to make sure we're framing this correctly. But even with that, we want to have some some underlying foundation we're building on so that we know what the truth is. We we know what are we trying to defend? And if I'm going to try to guide someone to truth, where am I trying to lead them? What is the best answer on this? And fortunately, there are some really great voices out there that are very articulate, that are addressing some of these issues head on, saying, okay, here's what they say, but let's look back. What does what does the Bible say? What is the reality of the situation? How do we measure this? And as you begin to get more of that information, it will give you even more confidence in having that conversation, because it's not it's not this uncharted water, this uncharted territory. Now, I have some information that I understand, right. The basic layout of of what this topic is we are dealing with. And I'm much more confident to have that conversation. And I think Allie Beth Stuckey's new book is an incredible resource on several of these topics where people are trying to figure out what is the best answer. How do I have this conversation in a loving, truthful, honest way? How can I defend the truth and help my friend see the truth? She has done a brilliant job at laying out what the argument is, what the foundational underlying premise is, what is the truth? What does the Bible say? And puts it all together. And it's the reason we wanted to have this conversation and even have have her own the program and interview her today so that we can share this with people because this these are the conversations that we're going to be having more and more and more often because this is exactly what our kids, what our grandkids, what the world around us is promoting. And we want to know how do we have these conversations? 

Rick Green [00:07:19] Well, it's so funny, you guys, as you guys were describing, that even David, you're saying it, you know, building that confidence to be able to respond. And the term like you're talking about for these live Q&A is a different example. I'm going to admit my pride and my lack of confidence. 15 years ago, I was doing this afternoon radio show. In fact, I think, David, you came one time and came through town and came over there. And I hated it. I hated it, guys, because it was a call in show and I wasn't confident and my pride was like, they're going to ask me something I don't know the answer to, or I'm not going to be able to respond to it. And so I just hated doing it. And now 15 years later, being able to serve with you guys and learn these things and learn how to act now, I love doing my call in show for America Family Radio because, number one, the pride's dead killed that so, I don't care if I don't know the answer, I'll just say I don't know. But number two, we do. We get better at these things and we get the breadth and the depth and and we start learning how to articulate it. And as Tim was describing, we're in these situations where we get that give and take with with people a lot more often. Well, Allie Beth Stuckey is a master at this at a very young age. It's it's it's wild, man. I mean, she just has God just gifted her with this. And as her kind of her theme is, she's she raises a respectful ruckus for things that matter. And, of course, she's she's actually somebody who's had a very successful podcast program with The Blaze, and she speaks all over the country. I'm just impressed that she manages to take these issues and boil them down to easy to understand, as she says, relatable. The name of our of her podcast, relatable to people that don't normally deal with this stuff like the three of us do all the time. And I think that's why people are really going to enjoy the interview today and the and the actual specifics in the book that people can take and use and learn so they don't feel what you were describing earlier, David, that lack of confidence. Instead, they have that confidence to talk to their loved ones and people in their church and people in their neighborhood. That's what this is all about. So we got a quick break. We'll be right back. Allie Beth Stuckey, our special guest here on The WallBuilders Show. 

Break [00:09:15]  

Rick Green [00:10:22] Welcome back to the WallBuilders Show. Thanks for staying with us. Allie Beth Stuckey, She's not just relatable. She's not just persuasive. She's impactful. Has a new book out, and we are thrilled to have her with us. Allie Beth, thanks for joining me on The WallBuilders Show. 

Allie Beth Stuckey [00:10:34] Hey, thanks so much. 

Rick Green [00:10:36] Man, you just continue to. I just love the way you do things. My wife and daughter, by the way, also go to your conferences and everybody on our team. I wish we could be there for the interview. We love Allie, but anyway, I'm just so thankful for you and you're glad you're doing this book because the left has stolen our language for way too long and you've done a great job of taking them on on your show, but now you're equipping us to be able to take some of this language back and not let them turn Christianity on. So anyway, that's a really long opening. 

Allie Beth Stuckey [00:11:07] Not so much. Well, thank you. I appreciate you all two, and I'm glad to be here. 

Rick Green [00:11:11] Well, the book's out. Is it this week or did it just release? I think you just got it out right. 

Allie Beth Stuckey [00:11:15] Last Tuesday, so almost a week. Yeah. 

Rick Green [00:11:18] All right. All right. So what what does it tell us about how you kind of came about doing the book? It's almost like a printed version of all the things you take on on your program all the time. But tell us what. Yeah. What you accomplished with it. 

Allie Beth Stuckey [00:11:31] And hopefully even more helpful because it's got all the citations. We've got pages and pages of work cited in the back of my book so that people will be able to engage in these conversations about abortion, gender, the definition of marriage, immigration, justice with those who disagree with them, or just those who are on the fence. Maybe they're politically apathetic. And the people in my audience, the people who read this book, after they're done, they will be totally equipped to have those conversations in a very informed and hopefully persuasive way. And the premise of the book is basically that progressive activists, progressives in the media, progressive politicians, they play upon our compassion, even our Christian spiritual duty to love, to convince us that the most righteous, moral and compassionate position is the progressive one. And they do it, as you well know, through these catchy circular mantras. And this is kind of a hallmark of propaganda that the more nonsensical it is, the harder it is to disagree with and break down and argue. So love is love. Transwomen are women. Social justice is justice. No human is illegal. Abortion is health care. And they use these circular mantras because they are hard to argue with. So I wanted to say, okay, hang on, let's define our terms. What do they mean by this? What does this look like in the wild? And how can we not only logically, scientifically refute their claims, but most important, biblically? 

Rick Green [00:13:09] That's it. That's a wrap, guys. That was like. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, I, I, I watch our people just freeze up when they hear Love is love and those kind of things you just said because it is, it's hard to respond to and it makes you go, well you're right. I'm supposed to love. But now they've redefined love. And we don't we don't realize that. And so, like you said, it's finding the terms just absolutely critical. The timing's incredible. I mean, this is, you know, honestly, on the heels of Megan Megan, Basham book, Shepherds for Sale and just seeing how the church just, you know, I mean, basically gave into this stuff and let it come into the church and redefine all these things, frankly, from the pulpit or maybe in the Sunday school class or whatever. It's almost  a 1,2 punch, man. I mean, this is I think the timing is just phenomenal. I know. You know, make it, Megan, maybe I'll play on this. I don't know. But from an outside. 

Allie Beth Stuckey [00:13:56] We didn't plan it.  And it would be a great it would be a great twofer if people were to get both books because they really go hand in hand. I would say hers is more of the what, Like how I mean, explaining where we've landed and I guess how we got there in my book is more of the why, like what is the thinking And sometimes the thinking that's shrouded in biblical sounded language that has gotten us and pastors, frankly, into a place of compromise? 

Rick Green [00:14:28] Yes. No, that's it. Yeah. Hers is kind of like an exposé. And then you're basically giving us the roadmap to get back. It almost feels like a curriculum I could use with the Patriot Academy students. 

Allie Beth Stuckey [00:14:37] Go for it. 

Rick Green [00:14:38] We could take the book and have them go through an okay, here's on this one. Let's practice. Here's how you respond to Love is Love. All right, let's practice on this one. Abort. Yeah. Anyway, and that's kind of what you intend for a lot of people to be able to use this to, to actually engage because most people aren't comfortable taking on the conversations you do. They're afraid they're going to get in over their head and that sort of thing. And so you're really kind of passing the torch to them to do it locally. What you do on a national level with your show, is that a fair way to say it? 

Allie Beth Stuckey [00:15:04] And that's that's what I would love people to walk away with if that's what this book accomplishes, even if it would, you know, just for one person, I would be happy about that because the majority of my messages that I receive are asking me, what do I say when? How do I respond to this? And what I would like is to give people the tools and the information so that they don't have to ask me on every piece of abortion propaganda that they see. How do I respond to this one that I hope that I've shifted the framework of the conversation in their mind so that every time they see a piece of abortion, propaganda or disinformation, they would say, But what about the baby? But what about the baby? Because that's what toxic empathy does, is that it puts all of our feelings into the shoes of the hoisted up victim that the media decides is the victim in this story. And we are so in that person's feelings because of how the media tells their story that we ignore the people on the other side of the moral equation or we ignore reality, we ignore morality. It's not just with abortion. It's also, for example, with immigration. The only stories that are ever told about illegal immigration when it comes from the left wing mainstream perspective, is the story of, for example, the poor woman who fled Colombian gang violence with her three children. She fears the specter of a Donald Trump presidency because she doesn't want to be deported. That's the only side of the story they tell in. So if that's the only perspective you're hearing and all of your empathy and your emotions are being channeled into that person, and that is what guides you to decide what our immigration policy should be. Of course, your conclusion will be we should never deport anyone. We shouldn't enforce our borders. We should just allow everyone in. The media is not generally telling you the story of Laken Riley or Mollie Tibbetts or Kate Steinle, the human and economic cost of illegal immigration. But also I would say churches aren't even telling their people, you know, even though immigration is a complicated topic, like here are the principles that we see throughout Scripture, that walls are always a depiction of security and stability and protection and prosperity for a community, for a city, whether they're used literally or metaphorically throughout Scripture, that God is a God of order who placed us in a garden with parameters, not a wild jungle, that having itself will have parameters that God has given us, these governments in these countries, in these borders, in these laws for our good, because God loves us. And He has given us the gift of common grief. That is the perspective that we so rarely see. All we see is that the empathetic moral position is to basically be lawless, but as actually Satan throughout Scripture that is seen as the man of lawlessness and the creator of anarchy. And so, yes. 

Rick Green [00:18:06] The Tower of Babble  mean, that was, you know, how we got God dispersed them into nations, right? 

Allie Beth Stuckey [00:18:10] Yes. And that was a punishment. The Tower of Babel was a punishment. And so when we see that we're all supposed to be celebrating that America is turning into a place that no longer has shared culture or shared values or even like an agreed upon border. While we can look biblically and see, as you said, that the Tower of Babel and the confusion that created that, no one shared the same language. That that was actually a punishment, not a reward. 

Rick Green [00:18:39] I'm unfortunately, Allie Beth I think you're asking so much of people, you're asking them to actually think and do cost benefit analysis. I think we stopped doing that so long ago. I know you remember when Andrew Cuomo said if we save one life, it'll be worth it? No, no, no measurement of the costs. We're going to shut down the world and kill millions by, you know, killing the economy and blah, blah, blah. I mean, they just announce. 

Allie Beth Stuckey [00:19:00] Yeah. And that's the perfect example of toxic empathy, actually. Yeah, I think it was. Thomas Sowell said politics is about trade offs. And so we do have to look at policies in politics. Thomas Sowell said, you know, politics is about tradeoffs. And that's why actually, when it comes to policy, we cannot be led primarily by empathy. That doesn't mean that we can have no compassion. Of course we should have compassion. But if, say that you were a judge judging a case, you don't decide or you shouldn't. Social justice says that you should, but you shouldn't decide a case based on how you feel about a person and whether or not you can put yourself in their shoes or even based on whether or not they've had a hard life or other things they've been through or experienced. That is not how we discern or judge rightly. Actually, throughout Scripture, we see that one of the characteristics of justice is impartiality, that you either defer to the poor person or the rich person. We don't defer to people based on their skin color or their background. Whether you think that you're helping the underdog or whether you think that you're helping the person with a lot of influence. We are supposed to judge our neighbor in truth, and that is the problem with being led primarily by empathy. It can blind us to the facts. 

Rick Green [00:20:22] You sound like you're describing some weird kind of concept, like maybe blind justice. I don't know. Equal. 

Allie Beth Stuckey [00:20:27] I know. That's so weird. Yeah, maybe not weird. No, but that's a really good point, is that this whole empathy led movement, because I heard this so much in 2020, and that's really what inspired this book after George Floyd in the middle of Covid, before the election, just a vote based on empathy, lead with empathy. But you're right, if we are led with empathy when it comes to discernment, when it comes to judgment and justice in politics, then you are getting rid of what you just described the Blind Lady Justice, the impartial due process leading with empathy sounds really good until you are on the wrong end of someone's empathy. When someone has so much empathy, for example, for the man who feels that he is trapped in the wrong body, that she ignores the rights and the privacy, the person with the empathy ignores the rights and the privacy of the girls in the locker room or bathroom. Okay, well, then your empathy has become very harmful. 

Rick Green [00:21:29] That's right. Yeah, it's literally become toxic. So what's the best place that you recommend folks get at Toxic empathy? How progressives exploit Christian compassion. 

Allie Beth Stuckey [00:21:38] So they can go to toxicempathy.com. You can see where it's sold. Hobby Lobby has it. If you shop on Amazon, Amazon takes the lion's share of everyone's books and typically that's the easiest place to go. You can go right to. Amazon might even be on a discount right now and you can get it there, but all the other places you can find it. Toxicempathy.Com 

Rick Green [00:22:03] Allie Beth keep up the great work we appreciate you thank you to you back at Patriot Academy. We'll see you soon. 

Allie Beth Stuckey [00:22:08] Thank you. 

Rick Green [00:22:09] That was Allie Beth Stuckey. Stay with us, folks. We'll be right back with David and Tim Barton. 

Break [00:22:12]  

Rick Green [00:23:20] Welcome back. Thanks for staying with us here on The WallBuilders Show. Thanks to Allie Beth Stuckey for joining us today as well. Back with David and Tim. And I guess I mean, exactly like we talked about, she picked out a couple of those issues. There's a lot more that that she, of course, covers in the book. And we ought to think this way. I mean, you know, obviously Jesus was the master, right? He was able to take any issue, no matter how complicated, no matter how controversial, and ask good questions and get people to think it through and and actually define the terms. So we're basically doing what Jesus would do here. 

David Barton [00:23:48] Yeah. I want to point out to the way we kind of talked at the beginning is, look, the three of us do a lot of public presentations, hundreds a year, and we do them in hostile audiences and friendly audiences. We do them all over the country. And people don't need to think that, well, I'm not going to be doing that, so I don't need to learn this stuff. No, no. It's like you just said, Jesus as disciples. That's a group of 12. Just talked to a group of 12 and be able to handle things in that to talk to a group around. You were told in the Song of Solomon 813 your friends to listen to your voice. So speak, just get yourself prepped, be able to talk to just people, you know, people you work with. You don't have to think in terms of Allie Beth Stuckey. You've been, you know, a public figure or the fact that the three of us do these these big crowds, small crowds, whatever. Just think in terms of what can I do to master this so that when I talk to friends, I talk to family, I talk to hostile family members, whoever I can help help them understand to take a step forward and understand, you know, you don't want to win the debate necessarily. What you want to do is get people thinking in the right direction because it will usually take two or 3 or 4 discussions of something before they really start arriving in the land where they need to go. You just need to start asking the right questions and putting out some of the early information to make them think about it, because they'll leave you, they'll think about it. They'll come back and have something else. That's the way it was with Jesus disciples. He didn't teach them all in one setting, so we don't have to do that. And that's that's where her book is so good in helping get some information, some easy questions and things we can use at any level, whether we talk to big crowds or just our neighbors. It's a great resource. 

Tim Barton [00:25:20] Well, it's something that lays the foundation for us to understand the topic and the issue better. It shows us the framework of what is culture say, what is the narrative, how have they framed it and why did they frame it that way? And then what is the reality of this and what does the Bible actually say? And the idea dad, as you're pointing out, it's not that this isn't to equip people to go in front of large crowds, although you certainly could. It's more of how do we have honest conversations? And and for those that watch on social media, this is something that Steven Crowder used to do with his Change My Mind segments. This is what Charlie Kirk is doing now on college campuses, just sitting down and having a conversation with college students. And they will bring a lot of these arguments framed in these certain ways. And what Allie Beth's book does is it helps give a foundation for us to understand the issue, the topic better, understand the framing we're dealing with, but also know what is true and ultimately what is the Bible say. The most important thing. I would highly recommend this book to all listeners. 

Rick Green [00:26:17] Alright  folks, we're out of time for today. And just as David was saying, man, everybody can do this. Everybody needs to be better at persuading the people in your sphere, whether that's five people or 5 million people. Learning these things is going to be essential to winning the culture back. And those of you that are listening right now, all of you put together, you're going to have way more influence than David and Tim and I and Ali, Beth and everybody else combined is going to have, if you'll use your voice, that God's given you in that sphere that you've been given. Thanks for listening today. You've been listening to the WallBuilders Show