Rick Green

Welcome to the Intersection of Faith and Culture. It's the Wall Builders Show, where we're taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical and constitutional perspective. I'm Rick Green, America’s Constitution Coach, serving here with David and Tim Barton, David’s, America’s premier historian and our founder at Wall Builders. Tim Barton's a national speaker and pastor and president of Wall Builders, and you can learn more about all three of us at our website, wallbuilders.com. That's wallbuilders.com. Or for the radio program, if you just want to go straight to the previous shows that you might've missed, you can go to wallbuilders.show. That's wallbuilder.sshow.

Now, today and tomorrow, I'm going to be sharing with you an interview I had a chance to do in my television program, the Tavern, which airs on Warrior Poet Society Network and also over at Patriot U. So if you'd like to see the full interview, it's patriotacademy.tv to watch the whole thing. We're going to jump right into that interview there in the tavern with Nicole Theis. She actually runs our Patriot Academy out in the Northeast in Delaware, and we filmed this interview while we were doing the Patriot Academy out there. Here's Nicole Theis from the Delaware Family Policy Council joining me in the tavern. All right, welcome back to the tavern. We're not in the tavern, but we're in a town that has a great tavern, and this is the gal that told me the story that resulted in the name of the show the Tavern, Nicole Theis, Delaware Family Policy Council, and an absolute warrior, finally got you in the tavern, even though it's not really the tavern.

Nicole Theis

Great, you're finally in Delaware. Well, that's right.

Rick Green

Yeah, that's true, so a year ago now.

Nicole Theis

The first state.

Rick Green

We're walking over to the legislative hall.

Nicole Theis

Yes.

Rick Green

And you're telling me this story of the Golden Fleece Tavern and it was like, oh, that's so cool. They ratified the Constitution in a tavern and I start thinking about all the other Taverns. So a couple of weeks later, Rhett and I are sitting around going okay, what are we going to call the show? Warrior Poets Society wants to do something. They're kind of military guys and you know all these cool people. I thought it's got to be a little edgy, but not too edgy, and anyway thought about our conversation, said why not, let's bring the Taverns back?

Nicole Theis

That's great. I didn't know that. Thank you.

Rick Green

Why are we in the state capitol today? I know you're here all the time because Delaware Family Policy Council is on the front lines in a crazy state don't be offended but a crazy state where she's having to fight all kinds of nonsense. We often think of California as leading the way on the crazy, but you guys are sometimes ahead of them.

Nicole Theis

Yeah, sometimes we get a little Delifornia going on, for sure.

Rick Green

But this week you're getting to do some cool stuff at the cap.

Nicole Theis

Yes, this week is therapeutic, because what we're used to seeing, like you said, is all the crazy and hearing all of just insane arguments uh, they're not really arguments or at all. You know it's, it's a bunch of emotionalism. People, you know that expression, you do you.

That's definitely what happens here before doing the use, 

Rick Green

not pretty, that's right you at that's right, you do you at all. Man, I wish I hadn't helped you to do that. Yeah, yeah so true.

Nicole Theis

So years ago, 10 years ago, a little before that, I would say probably 11 years ago, after watching what was happening here. Now, remember, I'm a grassroots kind of person, I've got little kids. I see what's going on. I'm discouraged by it. It's happening so fast. I'm concerned for my kids. I don't even know how a bill becomes a law. I don't know about all these procedures and everything. And really intimidated by the whole thing, even walking through those doors, just the whole thing intimidated. But I come in and I get some experience under my belt and I start hearing how they're arguing or not arguing and the lack of debate and just really disappointed by everything that I was seeing here and understanding that for every one legislator there's maybe, you know, six lobbyists and I know in a bigger state there's even more right. But those special interest groups and lobbyists they crowd this whole place and they just control what's going on here.

Rick Green

And nobody in that group lobbying or helping on the issues that affect the family, that affect the values of the community, those kind of things, and hold that thought. I want to come back to that because you said something I don't want to just skip over when you first came here. We all, I think, have this image of the Capitol, right, yeah, this is where the great debates happen, this is where the smartest people that's right In the state come here to argue for what they believe, and so I'm going to get to watch this incredible intellectual discourse as they. And then you get here and you just go, wow, that's our best. And because I went through that in Texas too, so it's not just Delaware, trust me it's like, wow, that's our best, yeah yeah.

Nicole Theis

So I would just encourage people to not be intimidated by because you come in thinking what can I do? Yeah, those people, they of course, must know so much more than I do. So you have to break down those walls of intimidation so that you can learn and be effective.

Rick Green

They realize they're just like us. They're just average Joes from our communities. Average people, yes, from all walks of life. I mean. There's not any career or background that tends to not be represented, right. There's somebody from virtually every area of the culture and you guys have in Delaware. What do you have in your? How many in your house? How many in your Senate?

Nicole Theis

41 in the house and 21 in the Senate

Rick Green

 So only 62 people representing the whole state? Yeah, Right, but but from each of their districts you find all kinds of different types of people, and we have one hundred and eighty one in Texas and same thing. You've got people from construction, people from education, people from. We got pastors literally serving in the legislature. You got you know moms that that are just like hey, I'm going to take time off from my family that I'm running to go serve in the community. Everything gets represented here and so people need to know that at home. Like you could do this, you could get elected to the legislature in your state and serve in the legislature. Or you could come, do what Nicole does and what I do go influence what's happening in your state and don't be intimidated by that. Don't think this is some other world and only the special get to come here. This is the people's house, right.

Nicole Theis

You know, what I noTheisd, rick, is that so many horrible bills, even back then, were going through and we were making our stand. We were all in the media all the time and I, just after a while, you're like okay, something drastic has to happen here. And I noTheisd that when young people would come through these halls, they would like roll out the red carpet. Oh, a young person is here and everything that they said. They would never challenge them back. They could really say anything and I would go into some hearings and hear young people, just you know, speaking from their indoctrination so passionately. Nobody to challenge them. And I thought this is we got to do something.

Rick Green

 Almost like they have a special dispensation for our gamers out there. What do you call that, Rhett? Whenever you have a shield that can't be penetrated, an aura, an aura. Yeah, so anyway, whenever you have that covering right and it was the same way even 25 years ago when I was in the house Kid comes in to testify. Everybody's just oh wow, and they really listen carefully, they do, and they don't challenge our question, right, they celebrate. It's almost like it pierces through all the other stuff and people really listen.

Nicole Theis

Yes, and I thought wow, what if? What if we could just my expression is back the truck up, you know, and really start to educate young people to understand what's happening here and break down the walls of intimidation. Yeah, and really we had such a blow with bad legislation that I decided to step away and seek the Lord and go. What am I doing here? We're not winning anything. We couldn't win in a game of checkers. You know what is happening. You know, is any of this making a difference? You know what is happening, you know, is any of this making a difference?

And I really had to just take some time and seek the Lord and understand what my role is, and that's when he reframed everything and I wasn't going to reengage until I heard back, until I could feel at peace about what we were doing, and it was during that time that the Lord really did after so much crying. There's a lot of crying and grieving and trying to figure it out. That's when I was introduced to you and to Patriot Academy, and we had met just a little while before, but I just had a big time prayer session with the Lord and you called you know, and said hey, I want you to come see this in Idaho. We want to fly you out. What are you doing? Let's go.

Rick Green

I still think about that. You know, just the Lord put that in. I think you had had me out to do a Constitution class or something, I can't remember. We did a couple of those types of events and we were doing, for the first time, an expansion of Patriot Academy, because we'd only done it in Texas for 10 or 12 years, however long it had been and some folks had asked us to come do one in Idaho and Arizona. And so we get up to Idaho and as soon as we got there and we started doing it, I was like we got to do one of these in the Northeast, we're going to do one in the Northwest. We got to do one in the Northeast, we're going to do one in the Southwest, we got to do one in the Northeast. That's about how it goes. Yeah, yeah, you're going to be the Northeast. You know, patriot Academy in a great way.

Nicole Theis

Regional installation is what you said. Yes, yes, you made it sound.

Rick Green

Really, it is important yeah, it's a fancy title, anyway, so you go. I remember you saying this. You were like no kidding, rick. God just told me I'm going to start shifting my focus to the youth more, and it was just perfect timing, as only God can do. And then we came out here and I remember how many times you said, Rick, you don't understand, it's different here, it's different in Delaware than it is in Texas, and you have to fight so much more of the dark and so much more of the insanity, so much more of the you know no longer longer. And it's weird because it's a place where so much of our history started yeah and yet you have to.

You have to deal with an environment that wants to ignore that and is literally erasing that right. So we're trying to bring it back. We're trying to say, hey, this is our foundation, and they're literally removing caesar, rodney and all this stuff. So you're you've got a tough battle here and I think a lot of people at home, you know maybe they think their their battle's tough. It's nothing compared to what you're dealing with. And yet look at this smile. I mean you still have the joy of the Lord and you still get up and you keep. And, like you said, that was a decade, more than a decade ago. And so, even after legislative defeat, after legislative defeat, you're still in the fight how and why, and tell everybody that's watching how you define success, because it changed my thinking on how to define success as well.

Nicole Theis

Well, God redefined my framework, redefined. What are you doing? What is a win? What are we on this planet to do? Right, and so my focus had gotten off, because there's so many people around me were defining a win to be when you can get that bill passed, when you can get that person elected. And in Delaware we started out with we are outnumbered on every front.

Rick Green

Yeah, and so and was it always that way? Because I wanted to try to get wrap my head around that. Didn't Delaware used to be a red state or an R state or not, like when the DuPont's ran the state you know, you know governors and

Nicole Theis

 purple, 

Rick Green

okay, but not crazy, right, not crazy. You got a lot of rural areas here that are normal folks aren't.

Yeah, yeah, anyway, sorry, but but really in the last 15, 20 years, radical shift to the left 

but you know, those folks that were in place, great men, I'm thinking of them right now they did hold a lot back and and then when we started Delaware Family Policy Council, Hold a lot back, meaning they held back the evil.

They were like the guardians.

Nicole Theis

They just refused to hear certain bills, you know, destroy veto, that's what they called it. But because they knew, they knew what was coming. And then those gentlemen, after serving for decades, retired. Except there was one left, and they're what we call the blue dog Democrats, and he was the one who helped us get Patriot Academy installed here.

Rick Green

She's hesitant because she is literally fighting. I don't mean this as an insult, but behind enemy lines in a way, right, I mean she's in a place where they would love to kick her out of this place, right, and not allow these things to happen, and you know. So you have to be strategic.

Nicole Theis

 We do Very strategic. 

Rick Green

That's why the tavern is kind of this place where we're in the corner of the tavern and we're talking about the strategies and tactics that can win this thing back, and that's what I love about being able to have these conversations. So I derailed you. You were talking about how, when you're fighting against that kind of darkness and that kind of overwhelm and you thought it would be we're going to go in. If we get a bill passed or we get somebody elected, that's a victory. And then you started seeing that's not happening. That's right. So how do we keep fighting? And if we are fighting, we're going to have to think about how we define victory.

Nicole Theis

That's right, and the Lord was very clear. I felt through that prayer time and fasting too. The Lord said what is a win? What is a win to you? Who told you you were failing? And we're supposed to hold up a standard of righteousness wherever we are. If we're not holding up truth, well who is?

Rick Green

Alright folks. Quick break, We'll be right back. You're listening to the WallBuilders Show.

Break

Rick Green

Welcome back to the WallBuilder Show. Let's jump right back into my interview with Nicole Theis from the Delaware Family Policy Council.

Nicole Theis

How do people know what the plumb line is if we're not representing truth?

Rick Green

Yeah.

Nicole Theis

You know. So then it became just. It shifted everything and it was on a crusade of understanding where truth comes from and who is the author of it, and is it going to be God or is it going to be self? And that's where we are today. And every piece of legislation. You can look at it and go, okay, you know what's happening with this legislation, how does it stack up against the framework of the lift principles? But what came out of that time is that a win is when truth is advanced. That's what came out of that time. Is that a win is when truth is advanced? That's what came out of that time of prayer. Are we advancing the truth in every conversation that we have? Are we looking at it, going, yeah, it's not going to matter. Yeah, you know I'm not going to, it's not going to make a difference. Well, what does making a difference look like?

Rick Green

Right. How do you define that?

Nicole Theis

Because, listening to all my colleagues that are in red states and watching their battle, that battle's different. They can pass really great legislation.

Rick Green

And what she means by colleagues is there's a family. If you're not familiar, there's a family policy council in almost every state. Well, 42?, 42. 42 states, and they are the boots on the ground. I mean, they are at the state capitol watching all the legislation that affects the family, that affects the values of the culture, all those different things. And so some of those states that have a family policy council, their battle might be, they maybe ended abortion completely in their state, or maybe they got one little thing, one little battle left, and so it's a very different strategy, very different look for what they're dealing with.

I want to back up to and I interrupted you again, I'm sorry, but when you said, when you were saying that, about the God actually said to you who told you you were losing, who told you you weren't winning, I thought I wonder if Daniel had the same conversation with Him, right, because if Daniel had defined victory as we're going to overthrow Babylon, we're going to, you know, we're going to go back, we're going to get the return, he would have said I'm failing, I'm failing. So for him it also became advancing truth and speaking truth where he was Right, which is what in the book of Jeremiah says anyway, wherever you are, be a blessing to that, to that nation where you are. So anyway, I interrupt you again, you were, you were saying. God said we're going to define it as advancing truth.

Yeah.

So what does that look like? How do you? 

Nicole Theis

Well, He is truth. Yeah, you know, he is the source of all truth in his scripture. And so I was just so inspired listening to you there, because I had to learn what that meant to define truth, because everyone around me was defining it differently, you know and so.

But back to I was talking about my colleagues in red states and their battle being so different. I see how hard they work. I mean, family policy council directors and teams are very entrenched in their states. They have deep relationships across the state that they have cultivated over decades and so and they're working a lot behind the scenes and so I always say if you're in a red state and it's still red, you can go thank a family policy council. Somebody's been at work, you know.

Moving across the state, we always say we move at the speed of relationships At least we do in Delaware because every relationship is key when you are behind the curtain or it's so dark. So a win is when truth is advanced. So what does that look like in every conversation? When is when truth is advanced? So what does that look like in every conversation? What does that look like when you're walking through these halls and you have allied legislators who feel the call to be here. I thank God for them, but they feel really beat up and why say anything? Why put yourself through that? Why, you know, is it really going to matter? So it's really learning that even if you're not going to be able to stop that bad bill, then give it your best shot at standing up and being able to dismantle it and speak truth to it.

And in the right way and teach everyone around you.

Rick Green

Yeah, because that teaching part's huge. Because, even if you don't change their vote, you're planting seeds. That's right. You're in the debate, you're influencing the thinking of what's going on, even if you don't win that day, when you're in the fight, like you are in Delaware, frankly, for even us in red states to define victory, advancing truth, I absolutely love that, and when you taught me that years ago, it really changed not just my outlook, but it changed some of our strategic decisions, and I'm assuming the same goes for you.

It makes you.

I think, make better decisions about which battles to engage in, where to put your resources and people and time, because we're all limited. So just to recap on that definition of advancing truth first, and then there was some other great points we hit that hopefully we can remember to hit again. Tell us what advancing truth means we can remember to hit again.

Tell us what advancing truth means. 

Nicole Theis

Well, just like what you were saying, I think, whenever we engage in any battle or just conversation, as Christians, you know we want to be used by the Holy Spirit. We want to be used in order to advance God's kingdom right, I mean, that's our goal. So we were talking about just being caught up in how the world around us, or even people who are in our movement, define what is winning, what is success, and I just really had to learn to be careful with that and to really just understand that differently in the context of this moment that we're in and what God has called us to. I mean, we are here for a specific purpose.

You and I are born at this time and I think just praying Lord, show me what winning looks like according to your definition, and that's kind of where we are, just in general, Rick, we were just in a session with John Stonestreet of the Colson Center and he just was reminding us of some really great points about what the real battle is. The real battle is a battle of worldviews, and we get caught up a lot of times in policy and in legislation with the action right, without really going back and understanding the worldview that we're dealing with. And where did it come from, say the biggest battlefront that we have is the definition of what the terms are and who gets to define what words mean it really?

all comes down to words, man. 

Rick Green

They're good at stealing our words too by the way, they're very good at reframing that and it's funny that in this part of why God had us redoing this part of the interview, because even just night before last, I was doing a show and David Barton was talking about. We were just talking about how crazy the times are. How many things think about. How many things have happened since we were together just two weeks ago right and all of these big events are happening.

There's all this crazy, and he was like hey, everybody, calm down, calm down. None of this is surprising God, none of this is outside of his control, none of this is new under the sun, and so our game plan, our strategy, doesn't change. Based on that craziness out there, we should still be calm in the fight, recognizing the big picture of what you're saying, which is this is a worldview battle. This is a clash of these different ways of seeing the world and of organizing the world, and we get caught up in these little fires that are going on, or sometimes big fires that are going on. We have to keep that big picture in mind.

Nicole Theis

Yeah, and we shouldn't let the things around us change where our hope is and where our trust is. So I mean, that's what I heard you saying in that is that we've got our hope is not in a party.

Rick Green

Nor our joy, right Our hope, our joy. We can be joyful even regardless of who candidates are, what the outcome of the election are, because we can. I'm sorry I cut you off, but yes, our hope is definitely not in a political party or a political candidate, or a particular election or a piece of legislation.

Nicole Theis

Right or a platform.

Rick Green

Yeah, yeah, or a platform.

Nicole Theis

Yeah, that was enough of a battle this year to cause people to say, I give up. In a lot of battle that we've had, you know, with not being being outnumbered, not being able to get through any kind of good legislation and trying to stop the bad stuff. It's like, okay, what are we doing here? What are we doing? And we need to go back and we need to address worldview issues among those who say that, who believe, who want freedom, who believe in a lot of things that we believe in. So before we were talking about Rick just really going to the Lord and asking him to define that and not allowing anyone else to define that for us. And so for us, God made it abundantly clear that for us, a win is when truth is advanced. Now, we don't go around saying when truth is advanced effectively, because if you're effective at it, it's going to be advanced. If you're not effective, and you're nasty about it and whatever, you're not going to advance truth.

So at the end of the day—

Rick Green

 Even if you're speaking, that's really good. You said words matter. You could be speaking truth but not advancing truth. Oh right, what you're saying is, if we are advancing truth, that implies that you've done it effectively, that you've found a way to communicate it effectively and not just annoy people.

Nicole Theis

Right right. And to really come together with who you're talking with, and just kind of because you need to ask and I think everyone needs to ask this question. You know, when they are trying to advance truth when you're talking is finding out how we're defining terms. What do you mean by that? I find myself asking that question all the time.

You cannot assume you have the same definition and understanding of who God is or any fundamental truth that we know. You have to step back and go. What did you mean by that? How do you define that?

Rick Green

Don't assume common ground. Make sure, make sure yeah.

Nicole Theis

No, that's the first thing. And there's so much the difference in how we speak generationally. You and I can have a conversation and and I can say, you know certain slogans or whatever and you're going to understand what I mean. But you know, you go down another generation of millennial, or definitely Gen Z-er, and they're going to look at us like, what are you saying to me right now?

Rick Green

Right, right. It's like using an 80s movie or rock band reference. They don't get it.

Nicole Theis

Yes, yes, immediately dating ourselves. Somebody said the other day we were in a conference and somebody went Bueller, bueller and I just cracked up because I thought you know, no one in the room understands what you're saying.

Rick Green

Yeah, you know that's embarrassing, but that used to work for me at Patriot Academy 20 years ago. I could do that, you know, if we were in the middle of a session and some of the kids would laugh. No one laughs anymore, you know, so it's just not. It doesn't work anymore. They have no idea what I'm talking about. I know, in the part we were able to salvage from our previous interview, we were talking a little bit about Daniel, but I don't think we've got that really good Nicolism about one person and I'm not going to say it right.

Nicole Theis

Okay okay, I'll ask you. Yeah, okay, you do it the right way. Yes, yeah.

That's right. At the end of the day, no matter what battle you've been in, you know, you have to ask yourself did I advance truth? And if the answer is yes, then you did what you were called to do in that day. And you have got to let God, like you always say. I know you're always quoting this, but you have to lead the results to God and be faithful and be consistent and not give up in what you are called to do. And so many times we just get caught up in everything else around us and we just get overwhelmed by it all. But we have to advance truth where we are Okay. So God has placed each one of us in different spheres of influence, and so what we always say to one another is remember the power of one person right. I mean you and I know each other, because one person made the introduction right, and so after that happens, then God just kind of takes that in the direction that it needs to go.

Rick Green

Our folks. We're out of time for today. We'll pick up with Nicole Theis and finish that interview off tomorrow. You've been listening to the WallBuilder Show.