Rick Green

Welcome to the Intersection of Faith and Culture. It's the Wall Builder Show, taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical and constitutional perspective, and today's one of those actually kind of tough topics. I mean, we're definitely pro-life around here and you normally would just think simply, hey, the more life, the better and that's what we want, but then you get complicated issues like IVF and surrogacy and all these things. So we're going to be hitting that one today. I'm Rick Green, America's Constitution Coach, here with David and Tim Barton. Tim Barton's a national speaker and pastor and president of Wall Builders, David's America's premier historian and our founder at Wall Builders, and guys, I don't know that we've ever really had a chance to dive into this particular topic today of surrogacy, but in Massachusetts there's legislation and a big debate going on about that. That's actually going to happen in all 50 states probably. So major issue I think we're going to be learning today and, Tim, you had a chance to visit with someone that's been diving into this topic for us.

Tim Barton

Yeah, it's something that we at the Pro-Family Legislative Network have been dealing with. How can we protect children? How can we encourage life in general and culture? What can we do? But especially in states, where can we do things in states to protect this, especially when you go back to the US Supreme Court overturning Roe versus Wade and saying it's a state issue.

Now, we disagree with that being a state issue. We disagreed when President Trump came out and said, hey, abortion should be a state issue. We disagree with that because it's far too similar to saying what would have been said back in the 1830s and 40s by some politicians is well, slavery is really a states rights issue. Well, no, slavery is wrong. It's a violation of an alienable God given rights where you recognize that God has given us. The founding father said first is life and then liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Well, slavery was dealing with the liberty issue. That was a violation of the laws of nature and, quite arguably, the laws of nature's God. Well, abortion, or the life issue is the very first, that of what the founding fathers recognized of inalienable rights that God gave us the right to life, and so we have been working in states to try to do things to protect life in those states, and many states have done a very good job and many states there's so much work to do and, of course, the culture and climate is changing around us, where now shutting down abortion clinics is awesome and we want to see more abortion facilities shut down, but now that there is a lot happening with these medical abortions and pills being sent across the United States, there's a lot of challenges that are presented that are changing some of the conversation in the way that the laws have to be written. All of that to say is we have been watching and monitoring this very well. There are several groups that have done a really good job on the life issue and certainly as Christians, we believe that God is the author and giver of life. Go back to Genesis, chapter one. When God creates life. It says God created them in his image, male and female. He made them. We are representatives of God. We are made in God's image, male and female, which also solves the gender issue 're saying no abortions, but what about the aftercare? And so there's a lot of groups now that are actually many of, if not most of, the adoption agencies have been faith-based adoption agencies and foster care has been faith-based individuals that have started those programs. And so, as a Christian, this whole life issue is something that our faith is motivating and shaping us in what we are doing. And so, in the midst of this whole life issue is something that our faith is motivating and shaping us in what we are doing. And so, in the midst of our pro-family legislative network, trying to connect to see what we can do, how can we help connect legislators to some of these groups that maybe have model policies, et cetera? We ran across an article that was really kind of fascinating dealing with. In some states they're changing some of the surrogacy laws and, of course, there's a lot of things happening right now where there's some controversy surrounding it, where you are now having doctors saying, hey, we can make these tests to babies and we actually can determine with the sperm and the egg, we can have it matched so we can actually pick the hair color, we can pick the eye color, we can make sure there's no disabilities, whatever genetic modification kind of stuff. This is all real conversations happening right now, and so it raises a little bit of the issue of is God the author of life, is God creating this, or is this now something scientists think they're in control of test tube babies? Whatever the case is, well, when it comes to surrogacy, it's interesting how some of the laws are changing and the way some of the laws are being written. Either there's negligence in the way it's written to allow opportunity for abuse to happen, where somebody could actually come and sexually assault, rape a girl and then could coerce her into selling the baby, making money. Well, when you have cartels,

Rick Green

 Basically a warped way to harvest babies, essentially.

Tim Barton

A hundred percent. I mean, you have these drug cartels. Well, we also know that sex trafficking is a real thing. And now if you are creating legislation that allows people to buy and sell babies and the only thing that's required is that the biological mother signed a piece of paper and then the individuals who are purchasing the baby sign a paper and they get to agree on whatever the price is, I mean, this really is something you can see very readily. This could be almost like a prostitute kind of scenario where there's a pimp working out. You know how much is this going to be and what does this look like. This is not a good scenario for protecting the mothers and even protecting that unborn child.

David Barton

There's actually a lot of history that goes behind this, showing how this can be abused, not the least of which is Tim and I. We're on the board of the Nazarene Fund. That's an organization created by Glenn Beck back in 2014, 2015, to help persecuted Christians across the world, and so we were there with Afghanistan and so much has gone on. But one of the things that we're actively involved with in the last two years have been all of these organ farms in Africa. In Africa, they got some weird religions and they need beating hearts and they need livers or they need whatever, and so they've been having these children and then they take the children, open them up and take out the organs they need for these ritual religious things that they do, so they're actually having it's become an industrial use. We need children for industrial use. We need parts out. So we've been able to go in with the Nazarene Fund and shut down a number of those organ farms in Africa that go to that ritual just pagan kind of religious stuff. But you go back even to the case of Christopher Columbus, when he came to America and he encountered the Taino Indians and the Taino was told about the other tribe, the Kanibs or the Caribs and they found out that they impregnate the Taino women and then they eat the babies they produce. They were using the babies as a food farm and so we raise our own food and rather than having calves and cattle and chicken and sheep and goats, we like humans the best and so they were using that same time.

And so when you get into, there's a lot of examples of how just having babies born does not always end up being a good thing. And I will point out Jesus really made this clear in Matthew 18. He said look guys. He said, if you're going to offend or harm or hurt one of these little ones, you might as well hang a millstone around your neck and be thrown in the depth of the sea, because it's going to be a whole lot better off for you to do that than have to face judgment if you harm one of these little ones. So Jesus really put a hierarchy on the protection of babies, of children, of young people, and that's different than even the way we treat others.

And so when you look at a state like Massachusetts, that is one of the most pro-abortion states in the United States, and they come out with this idea of surrogacy, I mean it's not because they respect and value babies in human life, because if they did, they wouldn't be having all the abortions they promote. So you say there's some bad science in here somewhere, because you've already arrived at that conclusion that the babies are disposable and unborn babies aren't really human. And so this is where you can see a scenario. Well, man, if I get pregnant, I can get paid 55,000 and think how many drugs or what I could do. I mean, this is feeding a lot of people who could give their bodies over for something if they could get money made on it, and you've already brought out the sex trafficking kind of stuff that's there. So it's just not a good thing.

And so Patience Griswold wrote the article that we saw. That was so really impressive, and looking at the analytics of what might happen under a law like this, it might appear to be good on the surface, but there's a lot of unintended consequences that we might not be thinking about. And so, Tim, you get to interview her on this, and it's a topic we need to consider right now, because this is a breaking topic that's starting to be covered in a number of states.

Rick Green

Patience Griswold, our guest. We'll be right back. You're listening to the Wal Builder Show.

Break

Tim Barton

Welcome back on the WallBuilder Show. This is Tim Barton and we are joined with Patience Griswold. She is part of them Before Us and it's a group we've done a little bit of work with with our pro-family legislative network. We've had them come and even speak at our conference, helping work with legislators to understand what they can do in their states to protect children, and in the midst of this post-Roe world where now the argument is that abortion is a states' rights issue, which we would argue that no, this is a fundamental and inalienable God-given right. Therefore, it's just like the First Amendment, second Amendment it shouldn't be determined based on states, it should be a universal understood. It's a God-given right, a right to life.

But in a lot of states there are some really good things happening, a lot of good progress being made, and then in some states they are really not going the right direction, which brings up the conversation today which we've asked patients to come on and help address. In Massachusetts there is a new piece of legislation that seems to be maybe, on some level people might think, hey, that's innocent, it seems like a good idea, but when you dig a little deeper, there's some really bad stuff in here. So, patients, first of all, thank you for being on the program and then would you dive in and tell us about this bill and maybe why it's not quite as innocent as it might seem at first glance.

Patience Griswold 

Yeah, thank you for having me. So this bill is a parentage equality bill, is how it's being framed by the people putting it forward, and what it's doing is it's redefining parentage. Putting it forward and what it's doing is it's redefining parentage so, rather than mothers and fathers being recognized in law, it's erasing all of that and using gender neutral language. And then also it's redefining parenthood so that it's not based on biology or on adoption, but on intent. So if an adult says I intend to parent this child, then they're the ones with parental rights more or less under this bill. And the most concerning thing that it's doing is that it's legalizing surrogacy. And what makes this particularly extreme is that it's legalizing not just commercial surrogacy, but commercial genetic surrogacy. So that is when the surrogate mother, the woman carrying the pregnancy, is also the genetic mother of the child and under this bill, she would be allowed to enter into a contract where she's able to accept money in exchange for her own genetic child.

Tim Barton

Now Patients, obviously there's a lot to the conversation of surrogacy and there's a lot of conversations now happening surrounding birth and abortion and your IVF fertilization. There's so many conversations happening right now. But I mean I can imagine people maybe looking and going hey, if there's a couple who have a hard time getting pregnant and we're hearing more and more couples in the modern era that are having challenges and so for some they consider surrogacy and again, that's why I think for some people either there's a bill that might help legalize and make surrogacy easier, you go well, this seems totally fine and then, as you're pointing out, it just seems kind of interesting, maybe odd that they're saying that not just in maybe patients. You can help clarify this for me, because I think normal surrogacy is where that maybe you're using a another woman's womb, but you're not, you're not using her egg, right? Is that correct? With normal surrogacy? Am I understanding that right?

Patience Griswold 

Correct so typically when states are bringing forth bills to legalize commercial surrogacy. That baby is either going to be genetically related to the commissioning parents or donor egg and sperm or some combination thereof. 

Tim Barton

Now this is where it gets interesting on this bill, as you're pointing out that they are saying that no, no, no, you can find some woman and say, hey, I will pay you X amount of dollars if you will give us your baby. So basically, we're in human trafficking, right, we're able to buy babies, and that in and of itself seems really odd. And I mean definitely, as you started getting into the moral considerations, there's a lot of reasons to think that that doesn't seem to be moral and upon further consideration, you're like, yeah, I think that's a bad idea. But it gets even worse because in this bill and I just read this from an article, I know you have been in tune to this a lot more but what I am seeing this article highlights on the Federalist is that you can pay a woman after she has gotten pregnant, so you can have a sexual relationship on some level with somebody, they can get pregnant, and then you can pay them after they've gotten pregnant, and it just seems like there's so much in this that is not intended to help a couple who are maybe a mom and dad stable relationship, trying to get a kid, or whatever kind of couple dynamic Massachusetts might deem appropriate. We would certainly argue that the mom and dad, the male and female, are the way God intended it to be, but it quickly seems to have a deviation. When there can be a sexual relationship, then somebody gets pregnant, then you're paying that person for a baby and all kinds of things can happen. Am I misunderstanding this, or is that the way the bill reads to you?

Patience Griswold 

Yeah, so there are a couple of things at play here. One is, as you've pointed out, that a surrogacy contract can be validated under this bill after the woman has already become pregnant, and it does specify under that portion of the bill that it needs to be an assistive reproductive pregnancy if it's validated after the pregnancy has already begun. As you also pointed out, this bill also allows, at the discretion of the courts, a surrogacy agreement could be recognized as valid if the woman became pregnant, naturally, as long as the genetic father is the intended father. So in that case, it's not just creating concerns of baby selling, which is alarming in and of itself, but it's also just barely stopping short of violating prostitution law, where you have a woman accepting payments in exchange for sexual relations, as long as a baby is conceived and she can accept her parental rights, giving them exclusively to the baby's father. In that case,

Tim Barton

 Well and Patience., I also could see and again, maybe you can help clarify this for me, but I could definitely see a scenario when we talk about human trafficking in the modern era, I mean you could see scenarios where this would allow human traffickers to force someone into a contract where right, whether it's someone that is being human trafficked in a sexual context or they're paying them they can then take the children from this quote-unquote surrogacy and then have those children be part of whatever this human trafficking industry could be. Dangerous game's not the right word but a dangerous move that could enable really really bad people to legally be protected in the beginning of operations to do really really bad things. Is that also a fair way to look at this?

Patience Griswold 

It is. Yeah, so surrogacy laws have been exploited in the past in some pretty concerning ways. So in 2011, there was a baby-selling ring in California that was broken up by the FBI and they were violating California's surrogacy laws. But because California's surrogacy laws were in place and allowed for an unrelated adult to be listed on a child's birth certificate without going through the adoption process, it created this opportunity for this fake surrogacy agency to really be selling babies and operating under this opportunity created by California's surrogacy law. And when you consider that and then look at this Massachusetts bill, yeah, there is all kinds of opportunity for bad actors to come in and exploit those loopholes to the detriment of women and children.

Tim Barton

So Patience. What should people be on the lookout for? Because, let's say, they're not in Massachusetts, or maybe two things. So, if they're Massachusetts, what should they be doing? You know, apart from making phone calls or whatever else you would recommend, what should they be doing if they're Massachusetts? But then you know, the majority of our listeners are not in Massachusetts, and so, if they're not in Massachusetts, what can they do? What should they be on the lookout for to make sure this kind of stuff is not coming forward in their state? That is something that could be very, very damaging to women and to children.

Patience Griswold 

Yeah, absolutely so. If your listeners are in Massachusetts, they should get connected with one of the groups on the ground. Massachusetts Family Institute has been really great on this issue and they would have opportunities for people to get involved. And then, if your listeners aren't in Massachusetts, people need to be aware of what's going on with surrogacy. It's becoming more and more popular. It's being treated as something that's mainstream and normal and framed as something that's a good thing, because it's being framed in terms of the interests of the adults involved, not in the ways that it's affecting children. So you know, learn about the surrogacy issue. We have some great resources on the them Before Us website some fast facts on how surrogacy works, how it's harming kids, and then also be watching for this kind of legislation in your own state. There's a push for these parentage equality bills and most of them do contain some level of legalized surrogacy. So that's something that people should be watching for in their own states, and there has been even bipartisan support for these bills because they're framed as this great thing that's helping couples who are struggling with infertility, but in reality, it's really hurting kids.

Tim Barton

Okay, Well, everybody listening. If you want to find out more about this, you ought to go to thefederalist.com and read the article that Patience has up there, and the article title is Massachusetts Proposes Bill Seeks to Redefine Parenthood and Legalize the Practice of Baby selling in the Name of Parentage Equality. And it's just when we read this we said, okay, we have to get Patience on. This is really powerful and challenging, saddening, right. All kinds of things going on and we, of course, really appreciate what them Before Us is doing. And so, patients, if people want to find out more about them Before Us, where's the best place for them to go?

Patience Griswold 

You should go to thembeforeus.com, and then we have our social media links there as well.

Tim Barton

All right. So go to thembeforeus.com or all over social media. You can find out more. Definitely, follow them, Find out what's going on and let's make sure in our states that we are working to protect children as much as we possibly can. Patience. Thank you so much for coming on. We sure appreciate the work y'all are doing.

Patience Griswold 

Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

Tim Barton

Our pleasure. We sure appreciate the work y'all are doing. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Our pleasure. We'll be back in just a moment with David Barton and Rick Green. 

Break

Rick Green

Welcome back to the Wall Builder Show. Thanks for staying with us and Tim, thanks for doing that interview. Man, this is one of those subjects honestly we haven't covered. I don't remember ever covering this on the show and I will admit you know complete ignorance on the fine lines, right Like where, what are the nuances of how you write a law like this so that you are protecting children and encouraging life? And then you know, biblically, how do we look at this one guys?

David Barton

You know, biblically looking at it, this law in Massachusetts is not about the children, it's about the adults, and so that's the wrong focus when you go at this, going back to what Jesus said in Matthew 18. You look at the children first. What's the impact on the children? And that doesn't mean children are the idols at which we worship. It just means there's a biblical hierarchy that God thinks that the innocent and the young should be protected at a higher level.

Tim Barton

Well and specifically, he didn't say right, if you mistreat an adult, it's better to have a millstone tied around your neck and down in the sea, right? If you cause one of these little ones to stumble and I'm saying that to support your notion of like this hierarchy it does make a difference because it's the level of innocence, it's the people that we should be the most protective of that are the most vulnerable if we're not doing a good job protecting them, caring for them.

there's a greater level of responsibility and in certain cases right could be judgment punishment if you are mistreating the little ones.

David Barton

And that's one of the problems of this law is it focuses on the adults, not the children, and the children are like the byproduct, but this is all about the adults and you just you can't push the children down the hierarchy scale like that and not find really bad consequences to that. So you know, that's one of the things that's a real problem with this bill and it makes it's really commercializing surrogacy. We're turning surrogacy into a business, into an industry, and that's not the way you treat life. You don't make a business out of life because now we're back into the stuff going in Africa and the stuff that was happening with the Columbus.

Tim Barton

Well, and that really does remind me too when you look at things like this is not a perfect parallel, but just as an example, if you take vaccines, I mean, certainly there are times we can look and go. You know, it would be really helpful to have vaccines to deal with certain kinds of sicknesses and diseases, like vaccines can make sense. But then when you see people come in and they recognize, hey, there's money to be made, that we have a profit motive and a profit incentive now, and so you know you need to get 18 boosters or this thing's not effective and we're doing these experimental now, whatever. This is where there should be a healthy level of skepticism. That are who are you trying to help, who are you trying to serve, and is this actually going to have the desired outcome, the benefit that we are wanting? And I'm saying this because I think people could see this.

Maybe, when you look, for example, like a company like Pfizer I think it was reported their first year after having this Pfizer COVID vaccine they made $40 billion. Well, okay, so if you're making that amount of money and now you're encouraging a booster every three to six months, it seems like you're just motivated by making money. This is where there could be a great danger the way this is written when it comes to surrogacy, when there could be a real issue that we want there to be more kids brought into this world and we want kids to be taken care of, and if there's a mom that needs an adoption solution, I mean we support that. But we recognize that if we're not careful how we write this, there can be a lot of abuse that happens and that is the opposite effect, the opposite impact we want to have when it comes to helping protect children and save lives.

Rick Green

Well, great topic, guys. This is literally looking at things from a biblical, historical and constitutional perspective what's the best policies for our country, and getting educated on these things super, super helpful. You can get more of this at wallbuilders.show that's where our programs are listed or at our main website, wallbuilders.com. Thanks so much for listening to the WallBuilder Show.