Rick Green

Welcome to the Intersection of Faith and Culture. It's The WallBuilders Show, where we take on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical and constitutional perspective, and on Thursdays we do Foundations of Freedom Thursday normally driven by your questions, but not today. Well, kind of, because people ask about this all the time, but no specific questions from you today. But we are going to be talking about foundational freedoms, specifically the presidential race. Of course the big debate is tonight, but beyond the debate, just the issues themselves. What are the foundational issues that this presidential election should be based upon? I'm Rick Green here with David and Tim Barden. David, Tim, man big debate tonight. Everybody's freaking out the popcorn getting ready. Nobody knows for sure which Biden's going to show up. I think we have a pretty good idea which Trump's going to show up, but will it be a stumbling, bumbling Biden or will it be someone that can get through the debate and look really good for a couple of hours?

Tim Barton

Well, my early debate conversation is how I should watch, because it's on CNN and so I don't want to give them the boost of viewership, right?

Right, so I'm thinking I might go with some friends tonight so there's only one television on and then we'll have a group of us around there. But you know, I mean Dad, Rick, I am curious as much as we're talking about the different Biden we might get. I mean, there is a different perspective of Trump. Are you going to get the really aggressive Trump, or is Trump maybe has he learned on some extent to be strategic and maybe focus on some of the bigger picture issues instead of directly attacking Biden, which you certainly can to criticize, to highlight, the pitch at this point can be really simple of is your life better now than it was when I was president? You've had several years of the Biden policies, the Biden administration, and has it gotten better? Because we see worse issues on the border and we see worse global conditions, and so I don't think you even necessarily have to criticize how bad of a leader and president Biden is. I think you can just highlight some of the fruit that he's grown over the last three plus years and it would really distinguish that.

But again, I'm very curious because I'm sure that the Biden team is probably coaching Biden to go Trump into snapping to show the angry Trump that has intimidated and scared so many people. So when you have so many of the never Trumpers or Democrats who just think he's the worst ever, he's the Hitler, he's the, whatever they want to call him, can Trump stay away from showing that? Or will Biden be able to goad him into that? And with that being said, obviously the CNN anchors, I mean, I think all of us would acknowledge that they're probably going to be working to push Trump in that same direction. So it's really going to be a three-on-one at minimum with that debate. And so can Trump stay composed, stay on target, et cetera. I'm very curious which Trump we get, and certainly if Biden can stay composed and not have major gaffes that make people think this guy's too old to be there anymore.

Rick Green

Tim's going to be in his ear with an earpiece going stay on target, stay on target. You're going to be that guy from Star Wars a long time ago. Sorry, David, go ahead, man.

David Barton

Yeah, I think that's the two big things tonight. If Biden can get him frustrated, where he starts interrupting and talking over and disagreeing and no, that's not what I did and if he gets that angry face on, that's not going to be a good deal. But I think the other thing is if he just goes with the topics they throw at him, if he cannot pivot and bring in some other type, for example, if he can't bring in the cultural topics, the Israel, if he can't, they may not ask about Israel at all, but if he can't bring in things like Israel, things like religious liberty, things like life, things that are very distinctive, then you lose a lot of viewership of people who are conservative and culturally conservative and see Biden as a real enemy to that

Tim Barton

 I'm also curious too, if he will defend some of the things he did that, arguably, were not necessarily the greatest, because he supported the idea of funding Ukraine, right, I mean, and from the outside, it seems like he's still in favor of that. He's the one who bragged about getting the vaccines done at record rate and he was the one encouraging every American to get vaccinated, etc. So it will also be interesting to see. Will he defend positions that now the majority of his base would not be in to see? Will he defend positions that now the majority of his base would not be in favor of? Or will that, as you're pointing out, will he be able to focus on the issues that maybe are more pertinent to his base, but also, then, even that would appeal to the average individual, who maybe is not a super solid conservative, fired up Christian that's going to vote on the other side. And then also, what level of moral issues are going to come up will be very interesting. Will they bring up the abortion issue? Because one of the reasons the 2022 election was thought to have really not swung the Republican way as much as people thought there was going to be a red wave, and there wasn't really a red in anything that happened in 22 to speak of.

One of the leading thoughts is because of the abortion issue, because the Democrats were able to win the messaging and win the rising generation over the quote, unquote personal freedom, right, body health, whatever kind of terminology they use in their messaging. They were able to win over that abortion issue and so will that come up? Will they try to make that an issue? And I mean, if they do, I think certainly Trump needs to stand his ground, but it'll be interesting to see what their game plan is, because that certainly will come forefront and to see how all this goes. And one of the guys that we've talked to a lot about this, who's actually had several conversations with President Trump, is our friend Tony Perkins for Family Research Council, and he was sharing some interesting thoughts about what he's encouraging President Trump to do as well, so it could be interesting to hear some additional thoughts and perspective on this as well.

Rick Green

All right, Tony Perkins, he'll be with us when we return. Stay with us, folks. We're going to take a quick break. You're listening to the Wall Builder Show.

Break

Rick Green

Welcome back. Thanks for staying with us here at WallBuilders. Always good to have Tony Perkins with us from Family Research Council. Tony, thanks for coming on.

Tony Perkins

 Man Rick, always great to be with you. Appreciate what you guys do.

Rick Green

 Well, right back at you and David saw your post about you know what Trump needs to do in this debate and the whole point of drawing the moral distinctions and say we got to get Tony on to talk about this because this is going to go beyond the debate this really whole campaign needs to be focused on. So, yeah, just share your thoughts, man, on how to draw that distinction. Right now. There's so many. It's whack-a-mole with all the different things out there. What do you think he should zero in on?

Tony Perkins

I think, what we've seen in the past. We go back to 2016, 2020, drawing the contrast, which has become easier, quite frankly, between the two parties, where you see the Democratic Party no longer even feigning any type of pro-life position. I mean their abortion up until birth. They want taxpayers to fund it. Republican Party being for the sanctity of human life because it's created in the image of God. You look at human sexuality. You know we believe what Jesus said in Matthew 19. Have you not read from the beginning, he created them male and female. Well, that's the party, the Republican Party. That's been their position. Democrats totally confused on the gender issue. Marriage, family, I mean you go down the line and an emerging Rick is the issue of Israel.

Rick Green

Yeah.

Tony Perkins

As you see, the Democratic Party, the Biden administration I don't even know how you can charitably describe their position with Israel. They've basically left them swinging in the wind, hanging out there, exposed to the forces of darkness. So I think what Trump needs to do is, number one, talk about his record. His record is very solid on this four years pro-family, pro-Israel, pro-life, but also I think there's much more to be done, and that doesn't necessarily mean that there is another particular piece of pro-life legislation. Although the federal government shouldn't be funding it, that's been happening under the Biden administration. They've been promoting it in their foreign policy. You know Trump needs to say that's going to stop.

Under my administration, religious freedom, the world's become a very dangerous place for people of faith, Christians in particular. We're going to go back to begin protecting them. A good example is what happened in Nigeria, where, during the Trump administration, when I was serving on the US Commission on International Religious Freedom, we were able to get Nigeria designated as a country of particular concern, meaning sanctions could be applied to that government for not protecting religious minorities, ie Christians. That was removed as soon as Biden came into office and we're seeing, you know, the widespread persecution rise of anti-Semitism. So there's not. It's not like 

Rick Green

there's a an absence there's no shortage right of issues.

Tony Perkins

Yeah but you'd have to be willing to to drive it and what. What I I talked about over the weekend was I went back and I pulled a clip. I was in the auditorium in las vegas during the presidential debate when he was debating hillary clinton, and he went after her over her position on life. To me, that's what sealed the support from the pro-life community, because it wasn't a passive position. He was putting the Democrats on the defensive and that's how you win. You don't win playing defense. You win playing offense.

Rick Green

Yeah, and what was so great about that night? I remember that like it was yesterday because even for me that was a pivotal moment. I mean, I've been kind of you know drug across the line with him and going, ok, this is better than Hillary. But I wasn't gung ho. And when I watched his visceral reaction to partial birth abortion in that debate and put her on the defense on it, I almost shouted for joy. I was like this guy, his instinct is right on this and he's articulating it in a way that average America will understand it and he's, as you said, putting them on the defensive. So I agree that's absolutely what he's got to do and, like you said, no shortage of issues, plenty of things to point out.

You said you know more to be done and, in many ways, a lot to be undone right in the last three and a half years. Just a destruction of the culture. And you pointed to some of these things. I mean the whole transgender thing and what they're doing to kids. I mean most Americans are absolutely with us on that, and even some Democrats and middle of the road folks. They are so turned off by what the Democrat Party has championed, whether it's the Hamas, terrorism or the transgender thing, I mean.

Tony Perkins

He's really could just rattle off quite a bit and it will draw some serious distinctions where we are and, I think, where I think the Republican Party is a political party, but here's the bottom line when we align ourselves with biblical truth, it benefits all of us. That's right, and so it. You know. Yes, the public's with us on a number of these things. Some of them aren't, and I think where President Trump needs to go is not where the polls might lead him, but where the truth takes him, and the truth is the fact that every human being is created in the image of God, therefore has value and should be welcomed into our world and protected under our laws. That's transcendent truth. That's just that's transcendent truth. That's revealed truth, and we need.

I believe that in part. When you look at what he did in 2016, and then, as he spent four years in office, what, what gained him the support and the allegiance of so many evangelicals and conservative voters, was not his personality, but it was his track record on policy. But it was his track record on policy, and that's been my message to the president this election is about policy for evangelical voters. It's not about personality, because, frankly, I don't think either candidate wins if it's down to personality. What they win on is the track record of their policy, and that is where we have clear, clear contrast.

Rick Green

And an opportunity here to advance truth and advance those policies that produce a good outcome. You know, regardless of presidential election, I mean anytime you have a platform with all these people listening, when you can talk about the evils of abortion, you can talk about the good of having free enterprise and all of those things you're helping to turn the culture around. So it really is an opportunity to essentially sell our values to those Americans that don't understand these things yet.

Tony Perkins

But we're in a place I didn't think we would actually be in, where there's been some ambivalence among Republicans and, as I know, David is going to be a delegate on the platform committee.

So am I, and we've had a number of conversations I'm very concerned with where I see some within the political world trying to take the party platform, moving it back from some of these substantive issues that have been in the party platform for decades, that have been defining and providing that clear contrast for voters. That and if folks would like to join in this effort to communicate to their delegates from their state to the Republican convention that we need to continue to have a platform that protects human life, that defends the family and religious freedom, I would invite them to join with us, and they can do that by texting the word life L-I-F-E life to 67742. That's 67742, the word life, and we'll get them signed up to help us in July. July 8th and 9th, we'll be in Wisconsin working on the party platform and we really need grassroots, bible-based, believing Christians to lean in on this process so that we can move this nation back to a place where we have policy that is more biblically aligned than we have today.

Rick Green

Tony, before I let you go, would you address just the fact that some people might say, oh, you guys are being partisan because you're talking about helping or working on the Republican platform? Parties are just how our government works, how our society works. It's how we organize. It's basically just how do you come together and assemble? First Amendment assembly, right? We're just assembling with people that share our values and this is a vehicle it's nothing more than a vehicle for pushing the policies, the biblical worldview that we believe in, right?

Tony Perkins

 I wish there was another way, because I don't like party politics. I don't like politics at all, frankly. I know you've held office, I've held office, but we live in a country in which you essentially have two major parties. We're a two-party system. You have Republicans, democrats. There was a time there was a time and I'm from Louisiana there was a time when we actually had more Democrats than Republicans in our legislature when I was in there, and many of the Democrats were more conservative than Republicans. But the times very clear and it's very, there's a strong contrast. I think it's beneficial that we keep a party that is more aligned with biblical truth and policies that are in alignment with that truth. And the only way that happens, rick, is if we're involved in the process, and so if we want a country that benefits from being aligned with truth, then we got to roll up our sleeves and be a part of that process. Amen.

Rick Green

Amen. Oh, I said that would be the last thing, but you mentioned Louisiana, where you served before. Just your thoughts on the Ten Commandments bill. We're so excited that got through and hoping to see it happen all over the country, but your state of Louisiana led the way, I'm embarrassed to say as a Texan. You beat us.

Tony Perkins

Well, but you guys helped out on that and, of course, Governor Landry has been a longtime friend of mine. I am very encouraged from the trajectory of Louisiana and from the time that I was in office and the transitions and the turning that we made, and I'm excited about the future of our state and this is key laying a solid biblical foundation and being unapologetic about it. It wasn't like the governor just signed this in secret and moved on. He's embracing this. In fact he's going to be on my program as we're talking about it and he's telling those who want to sue and come after hey, bring it on, we're going to defend it and the Attorney General, Liz Murrell, she will defend it and I'm proud of my state. I am. I'm very proud of Louisiana and what they're doing Good stuff, good stuff.

Rick Green

Tony Perkins, family Research Council. God bless you, brother. Y'all keep up the great work. We'll see you soon.

Tony Perkins

All right, Rick. Thank you, brother. 

Rick Green

Stay with us folks, We'll be right back with David and Tim Barton. 

Break

Rick Green

Welcome back to the WallBuilders Show. Thanks for staying with us, thanks to Tony Perkins and Family Research Council and all the good work they're doing over there. Tim, as you were saying before the break, I mean Tony's talking to the president about this. I think we all know what we hope he does and some of those things we talked about. But I did appreciate Tony also talking about, beyond the debate, just the importance of distinguishing on the policies and, as you said early in the program, tim, it's the fruit and you really can say I mean, we haven't had a chance to do this in our our lifetime. Here's two guys that both have served as president. We've seen the fruit four years under Trump, three and a half years under Biden, and you can just talk about the policies and how bad the fruit has been for the last three and a half years and how much better it was under Trump in his four years.

And as we all know we've talked about this all of those things that happened during Trump's years obviously not just results of Trump all of the bad things happening under Biden not just results of Biden, but people perceive it that way and it is the major driver of a lot of these big policies like the border and the student loans and the transgender stuff. So it is a huge factor I don't think we can downplay.

Tim Barton

No, and I appreciate what Tony talked about as well, of differentiating himself and even highlighting some of the moral distinctions where they really are different. And, as we pointed out you just mentioned, not just in this debate but really as we're approaching the election, this is going to be a really good trial for him to see how he can message. Obviously, they're both getting a lot of prep for this, both getting a lot of prep for this. The conversation that we've heard about President Trump saying, hey, I'm down for a drug test, I will do this. He should do it because we fully expect that he's going to get some kind of cocktail to help him be alert as he comes out.

And it's also interesting that, as the debate goes on, that's where you would expect maybe him to lag a little bit more right the idea that CNN wanted to have chairs and not have them stand, and just so many thoughts around this. But, dad, we were talking off air between this interview and you were saying that you've talked to Tony many times. Y'all are both going to be national delegates to the Republican National Convention and y'all have been talking through even the platform and just kind of big picture, some of the moral distinctions, and you were saying something I thought was so interesting that Tony pointed out from kind of a biblical foundation for the morals that we should be looking for in leaders and uphold. I think it'd be great if you would share a little bit of that.

David Barton

Yeah, it really goes back to that. Every single election you have, there are some hot issues, and there's certainly hot issues now with the spending. What's happening there? What's happening with Ukraine, Russia, China, what's happening with the student loans, what's happening with so many issues? But there are some non-negotiables you always have to go to and they haven't been big thus far in the way the campaigns have run at it.

And so what we're looking at, even with the National Republican Convention, there is a movement underfoot from a whole lot of folks more the libertarians that you need to get all that social conservative stuff out of the platform, all that stuff on gender and all that stuff on life. Get that out of there. We need to talk about economics and foreign aid and et cetera, and I'll just take you back biblically. That's just not the way it works. The scripture is really clear that righteousness exalts a nation. It's not good economic policies, although that helps. It's not your immigration policy, although it helps. It's righteousness exalts a nation. The scripture, Jesus says seek first the kingdom and his righteousness and all this other stuff will get added to you. So one of the things that Tony has pointed out that we're really going to work on in the platform is the first 12 chapters of Genesis. Because if you take the first 12 chapters of Genesis, it starts with, in the beginning, God. So what do you get out of that? God is central to everything in the story. So if you're not acknowledging God, that's a problem. And Democrat platformers we've talked about they do not even have the mention of God in there. They took all that out when there was an attempt to put the word God back in their platform. The delegates booted out. So you've got to have a willingness to acknowledge God, because if you stop being God-conscious, your behavior changes, if you stop being God-conscious. That's the problem with the Judiciary Committee.

When Democrats had it before Jim Jordan came in, Nadler out of New York said God's will is of no concern to this Congress. It should be, because God wants all your inalienable rights protected. God wants you to have the right to life, the right to free speech, the right to defend yourself, et cetera. And if God's will is of no concern to Congress, then none of your rights are of concern to Congress. So you start with the acknowledgement of God.

Then, as you go, it says then God created man. Well, god created life. So life is an important issue that is a creation of God. You need to be protecting life. That includes unborn life. That's throughout the scriptures.

Back in the Old Testament law God talked about the penalties for taking unborn life. So that's a big deal in the first 12 chapters of Genesis. And then it says and he made them male and female. So now we've got gender involved in it Four times. It says that God made them male and female. So now we've got gender involved in it Four times. It says that God made them male and female. So giving up on gender stuff or Title IX and letting that go away, those are social issues, but they're the top issues of God. They're right there at the start of the book. And then Adam and Eve had children, they had Cain and Abel, et cetera. Now you're into family. So you want to protect the nuclear family, you want to protect the traditional family.

And then, as you continue on, you go through, you get to chapter 12, where Abraham shows up in chapter 11.

And chapter 12, God makes a covenant with him and says man, you're going to become a nation, and whoever blesses that people I'm going to bless, and whoever doesn't bless that people I'm not going to bless. That's Israel, the position you take toward Israel. So when you look at the first 12 chapters of Genesis, you got a pretty good grid there of the first things we ought to be looking for is not going to be border or economy or anything else. It's going to be number one are you God acknowledging? Is God part of what you do and you're thinking? Are you talking about it?

Number two is going to be a life issue. Number three is going to be gender. Number four is going to be family and number five is going to be Israel. And certainly those are things we're working very hard on in the Republican platform not to take out, because there's a real pressure and push to do that. Some of the consultants are really pushing to take that stuff out. They think that that's a losing formula. I'll point out that when Trump won the election in 2016, 81% of evangelicals voted for him, and it was on those kind of issues. So if you can keep the faith, vote strong and not compromise on that, then you got a real shot of winning, as he did in 2016, which was seen as really an improbable kind of win.

Rick Green

Well, and just in terms of viewership on this one, I think a lot of people are really interested to see what's going to happen, so I expect a lot of people to watch. I'm like Tim, though I don't want to give CNN numbers, but man boy, they've manipulated this deal. I mean, they're the only ones in the room. Nobody else is there. You can't get video except through them. They got a sweetheart deal on this and a lot of different strategy thoughts went into that. But we shall see. Get the popcorn ready. Everybody. We'll find out what happens tonight. It's not make or break for Trump, but it could be make or break for Biden if he really falls apart. It's going to be interesting to see. Well, thanks so much for listening. Thanks again to Tony Perkins for joining us today. We appreciate you listening to the WallBuilder Show. Thank you