Rick Green

Welcome to the Intersection of Faith and the Culture. It's WallBuilders. We're taking on hot topics and we're taking them on from a particular perspective. We always look at them from a biblical, historical and constitutional perspective. Hope you appreciate that. You know, if you're a biblical citizen, if you consider yourself to be a person of faith, a Christian that has truly surrendered all, that means everything in your life. The Bible speaks to it and it's all surrendered to Him, and so we want to always ask that question on any issue, what's the Bible say about it? How do I look at this from a biblical perspective? And that includes the issues of the day that our politicians are talking about, that our legislatures are debating, or our school boards, or even our own families as we talk about what's happening in the world today. So biblical perspective, historical, always helps, because then you can see what works, what doesn't work. How can we learn from past civilizations, even, or certainly past generations in our civilization? And then, of course, constitutional, because we live in America under the United States Constitution, or at least we're supposed to be. A lot of that being ignored right now, of course, and we want to restore that. So thanks for being a part of it here with us at WallBuilders.

I'm Rick Green here with David and Tim Barton. Tim Barton's a national speaker and pastor and president of WallBuilders. David's, America's premier historian. We're thankful you're listening and I hope you go to our website, wallbuilders.com and learn how you can be the catalyst in your community for a restoration of biblical values and constitutional principles. All right, David or Tim, we've got Rocky Malloy back with us, going to be getting kind of an update on. Remember we had him on when the chaplain bill first passed in Texas started talking about how folks could become a part of that. So that's now been in place for a few months and other states are now considering this, which is kind of good. This could sweep across the country.

Tim Barton

Yeah, rick, I'm interested to hear the update. I know there's been a lot of states looking into this. He was at our pro-family legislators conference in November and talking with several state legislators about opportunities in their state. We know because of recent Supreme Court decisions there's now opportunity to restore religious freedom and kind of a biblical foundation in ways that we had not imagined might be possible to the extent they are now. So it's going to be very interesting to see how far this goes. And actually we have, through this process, even found out that some states they are already set up that they would allow chaplains to be part of the counseling staff at a school. They can already be on staff or be a volunteer, so to speak, but they can already have that presence at a school. So not every state requires some kind of legislative action, but there are a lot of states considering this and we've heard some really interesting results from Rocky about what has happened in some of the schools where chaplains have gone in and we already know there's a lot of people looking now going wait a second.

There's a lot of dangers to this, because if you allow Christian chaplains, doesn't that mean you have to allow all kinds of other chaplains right, doesn't this open the door? And there's a lot of people that are so concerned, and maybe justifiably so. To some extent they're concerned about protecting and preserving what we have, because they've seen the abuse of government, they've seen people strategically trying to destroy and tear down institutions and they don't want to make things more vulnerable. And so, hey, you know what it's going to be better for everybody if we just don't do certain things, because then the other side can't take advantage and then we don't have to worry about these Satanists or whoever else it might be. There's a lot of those questions that come up, and Rocky deals with these all the time, having to navigate what's there. But one of the things that we can speak to very easily right now, even before we get to Rocky, is one of the questions that comes up is what about a separation of church and state? And this is almost like the ageless right, the timeless argument. At least since the 80s it's been very prominent in academia. We really could go back maybe to the 50s and 60s when it starts becoming an argument, but by the maybe late 70s, but by the 80s this is the argument you hear over and over into the 90s you hear separation of church and state. That is not what the phrase actually means to secularize government, anything government related, which would be public schools.

The phrase separation of church and state came from a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut, who were concerned that the government was going to come in and limit their religious freedom, their religious expression. Jefferson wrote them back and said you don't need to worry about losing your religious freedom of expression. Congress has already protected that. In fact, they've erected a wall of separation between church and state to make sure that your freedoms can never be violated by the federal government. What Jefferson said was not that we could not have religion in the government. It was that the government could not force or compel you to be part of a certain religious belief or sect, or the government couldn’t could enforce or compel you to not have a belief or practice when it came to faith.

What's, in my mind, even more telling about this whole separation church and state argument? Jefferson wrote that letter on a Friday. It was January 1st 1802. On January 3rd 1802, that's a Sunday, Thomas Jefferson attended church at the US Capitol building where he heard a sermon from the Reverend John Leland, one of his friends whom he actually had invited to preach. If Jefferson had actually believed that the separation church would say, meant that you cannot have religion in government, you can't have Christianity in government in America, then why in the world did Jefferson, two days after writing that letter, go to church in the Capitol building itself and hear a sermon from his friend, a pastor whom he had invited? None of that makes sense if that phrase means what people argue it means, now the reason it matters is because the idea from the founding fathers is they wanted to separate institutions so that the government couldn't control religion. But the intent was never to secularize institutions, it was to separate them. They believe that our rights come from God and so in government they recognized there was a God and they recognized the values and morals of the Bible. But they believed in having a separate institution, not a secular institution. So when people look and go, wait a second, but chaplains, that's a separation of church and state. That phrase is not what you think it means. And the founding fathers believed that without religion and morality our nation would never succeed. Because we wouldn't have the moral foundation, the moral fabric for freedom to actually work, our constitution would fail. They promoted religion in schools. So the idea of having chaplain in schools is certainly not contrary to the Constitution, is not contrary to the founding and it doesn't violate the separation of church and state.

Rick Green

Now I just want to ask a question real quick due to our program yesterday, Tim. If Thomas Jefferson had church services going at the Capitol and he attended and he invited a pastor, does that make him a Christian nationalist? I just wondered if we could follow up. I'm just kidding.

Tim Barton

Based on modern definitions, pretty much every founding father would be called a Christian nationalist in these days. They obviously were not but yeah, I mean. Rick, it's a good point because, they certainly would.

David Barton

Rick, that's a self-evident answer. I mean, they said that, if you believe that they're a. God-given inalienable rights. You're a Christian nationalist. He's the guy.

Rick Green

I think he wrote something about that, didn't he? 

David Barton

Yeah, he's the guy who wrote that you have God-given inalienable rights. It's got to be that. The thing that's interesting about what Tim just went through is for about 50 years we had religious hostility where they turned separation of church and state on its head  the last five years. They've changed that and what they've done in the last five years. The court said look, it's been bad for 50 years, we're going back to what it used to be. And they said that if there's a longstanding historical, traditional religious practice, they're going to assume it's constitutional. Now let's take chaplains. Man, you go back to the military.

Before we had the Constitution, George Washington put chaplains in one of the first things he did. Once we had the Constitution in, they put chaplains in. We've been paying chaplains. We do that at prisons, we do that at legislatures, we do that for police, we do that for drug program. We have chaplains everywhere. They're paid by the government and even in the 50 years of hostility, chaplains still survived Constitutionally. So the question of having a chaplain in school how much easier can it get? That's one thing that has stood up, even with the hostility that's been there from the left, even in the years of hostility, they still upheld chaplains. So this is a longstanding, traditional, historical practice. It's one that's going to be upheld by the courts because they've been upholding chaplains. Schools may be a new use of it, but that's no less of a chaplain than there is when you have any other state program, whether it's prisons or legislatures or anything else. They're all the same from that standpoint. So Rocky's been doing a lot of good work in this and he has really been active in working with legislatures and they've made some great steps and it's going to be fun to hear about how this movement is growing across the United States and what some of the positive results have been.

Rick Green

 Stay with us, folks, Rocky Malloy, back with us when we return on Wall Builders.

David Barton

This is David Barton, with another moment from America's history. Often today it seems that the federal government has become too intrusive into local matters and federal micromanagement has now unfortunately become the norm in education, law enforcement, religious expressions and even on what is and is not moral. Strikingly, the founding fathers had intended that the federal government never intrude into any of these issues. As Thomas Jefferson explained, taking from the states the moral rule of their citizens and subordinating it to the federal government would break up the foundations of the union. I believe the states can best govern our home concerns and the federal government our foreign ones. According to Thomas Jefferson, the original plan was for the federal government to direct foreign affairs, but for the states and local communities to direct the domestic and the moral ones. For more information on God's hand in American history, contact Wall Builders at 1-800-8-REBUILD.

Rick Green

Welcome back to WallBuilders. Thanks for staying with us. Great to have Rocky Malloy back with us. We're talking about these chaplains in schools. It's a huge positive step forward and we're trying to get it done all over the country. But, Rocky, thanks for coming on. Man, let's talk about what's been going on with you.

Rocky Malloy

Hi Rick. We've been really busy man catching up with all the legislation moving across the country. There's so much interest in God and prayer coming back to school. It's so exciting.

Rick Green

People know right, they recognize that we're in trouble and that the culture is falling apart. It's crumbling, especially the morality in the culture, and the schools are a mess, and so they're looking for something solid. They're looking for something, some truths that they can hold on to, and these kids need help, and so this is just a huge positive step to have chaplains in schools. And you know, we talked before, had you on the program talking about some of the places where this is beginning to happen, but now you've got, like you said, you're reviewing legislation all over the country. Tell us, kind of what are the states that have done this? Actually, I'm sorry, man, let's back up. Just answer that question that you are used to answering about 40 times a day. Is it okay to have a chaplain in a school?

Rocky Malloy

Yes, chaplains have been established since before the US Constitution, general George Washington, articles of Confederation, 200 years of case law support chaplains because chaplains represent God, not the church. That's why it's completely legal and everybody goes. Oh, you can't do it. There's 10,000 federal chaplains. If it was somehow iffy, I'm sure all those thousands of people wouldn't be on the government payroll.

Rick Green

I love it. See, I know you've been answering that question a lot. I mean that's, you know it's almost common sense like this is you know the heart, the mind, you need counsel, you need godly counsel, you need somebody that you can, you know, go to in times of need, and also just mentorship and all of those things. And, like you said, I mean we do it in the military, we do it in all kinds of programs. Obviously the kids need this as well. What does a school when they do this? Is this a paid person? Is this a part-time person? What are you generally seeing? What does it look like when a chaplain is on campus?

Rocky Malloy

It's almost always recommended. It's a full-time position because a chaplain needs to be there when children and teachers are coming to school, when they're going home. A chaplain's number one job is situational awareness what's happening on that campus, who's doing it, when is it happening? And they're really they're the greatest safety officer from that perspective because they know what's going on and because they're a confidential source to talk to. They're getting information all the time that's very personal from people, so they can help them, but also they help the campus.

Rick Green

I love it. I love it. Tell us, give us some examples of where this has been done so far and how the community has responded.

Rocky Malloy

Well, you know, we have over 30,000 schools with chaplains overseas and it was that model the state of Texas used to pass its legislation, found in the law last summer by Governor Abbott. Most recently, Florida passed it and sent it to the governor. He's indicated he'll sign it, which means Texas and Florida. Louisiana has passed it out of both houses and it needs one more reading on the floor of the House before it goes to the governor of Louisiana tomorrow morning. It's being heard on the Senate committee in Alabama. Alabama is a Democratic senator that proposed it. It looks like it's in a great position for Alabama to become law and there's about seven other states where it's in play. There's also about six or seven states where it died. It's somewhere in the process, but a lot of that was it wasn't really worded correctly, so we're helping those states reword it.

Rick Green

I love it, oh man. Okay, let's talk about those states now where it's happening. Some people get concerned that, okay, if you open the door to this, do you have to let a you know, a satanist church or whatever they call themselves, you know, come in and take that job on the campus. I mean, what's the parameters for what a chaplain is or isn't?

Rocky Malloy

Well, you know what I think, Rick? That's a very legitimate question, but it comes with a certain amount of really lack of information. There's no such thing as a satanic chaplain. I know they threaten that, but there are none and there's not one satanic chaplain hired by the federal government. Zero, they don't qualify.

Rick Greenn

So it's a red herring really. People raise this, but it's a non-existent challenge.

Rocky Malloy

It's non-existent! It's a typical demonic threat. They have no resources, they have no chaplains, no chaplains recognized because they don't qualify. A thing called black letter laws, us Constitution If you blaspheme God, you do not qualify to be a religion. So no satanist can get a job saying equal access, because they're not in that group.

Rick Green

Oh, that's good, that's good. I love that. Oh, man, you know this stuff All right, so let's talk about you know, like you said, you've got in other countries. Even this has been well desired because they knew they needed this in their schools. We've got this hang up in America that we have to overcome with these objections because of all the lies and distortions over the last 50, 60 years. But where it is happening, you're already seeing good results the mental health, the kids. It's not just the kids, it's the teachers. It's been improving it for everybody. So talk a little bit about that. You've already got some good data on this.

Rocky Malloy

Teachers are the primary responsibility, because if the teachers aren't right, all the kids are going to be messed up, so people think they're only in there for the kids, but it's really the opposite. Their primary role is to support the teachers, and then that supports the students. But we're getting data like up to 80% reduction of teen pregnancies, 37% increase in graduations, and the one that shocks people is zero reported suicide in a database set of over 27 million people.

Rick Green

Wow, Wow, I don't get speechless, Rocky, that's a big one, that's huge. I mean, that's been an epidemic in our country and you know, I think what people don't realize is that they know the problems there. But again this hang up. They've got this kind of glitch in their brain that well, I know it'd probably be good if a person had a Godly influence and if you recognize there's a creator, you have more hope in life and all of those things. But they just got that hang-up. And so, as you're overcoming that with legislators, how important is it for us to overcome that with voters and people back home so that they'll support the legislation and support the legislators?

And what's kind of your elevator pitch for the citizen to take this message to their legislator and get them to do this in their state?

I think the deal closer is, based on empirical clinical evidence out of the University of Columbia, who provided the clinical evidence for the US Army testified to the US Congress is that not providing spiritual care, as provided by chaplains, actually creates mental illness. So is it any surprise that we have an epidemic level of young people killing themselves? There's one school in texas with 25 000 students and in 2022, 26 kids killed themselves. The youngest was six year old little girl. Why? Healthy kids go to school? And because there's an absence of spirituality, they come home with mental disease 

Rick Green

Ah, you know, rocky, we say it on this program all the time that you know that, that the Bible's got the answer for every problem that we're facing in life, and the founders of this country understood that and it's why it infused so much of who we were as a nation. And what you're really doing here is you're getting back to the basic formula of what creates a good society, recognizing that there is a creator, recognizing our freedoms and our rights come from that creator how to treat our neighbors the way we want to be treated, I mean all those basic ideas. And a chaplain understands that and comes in with that foundation. So when these kids and these teachers are facing tough, tough things in life, they don't get this, you know. Oh well, you just be you, you just do you, you just do whatever feels good kind of advice. They get advice that’s here's what actually works, here's what actually produces a good result in your life. It just common sense tells me that the more chaplains are in schools, all of those stats that you just described, all the good ones we're going to get and the bad ones we're going to get less of, and it's just a really, really positive thing. I want to encourage people to support what you're doing, because I know this takes a lot of effort, not only the legislation and getting it passed, but then training chaplains and all of those different things Nationalschoolchaplainsassociation.org Is that the best website for them to go for donations, for possibly signing up to get trained as a chaplain, for following legislation in their state? I think you do it all at that website.

Rocky Malloy

We do. They could also go to campuschaplains.org.

Rick Green

That's easier. That was a mouthful a while ago. National School Chaplains Association. Okay, say that again. 

Rocky Malloy

Campuschaplains.org goes to the exact same website. We've made it simpler Campuschaplains.org and then the number to call if they'd like to consider becoming a chaplain. At least find out what is involved. Can I give you that number?

Rick Green

Yeah, please 

Rocky Malloy

405-831-3299.

Rick Green

405-831-3299 Call that number and find out what it takes to be a school chaplain 405-831-3299.

Folks you can call in there, find out what it takes to be a school chaplain. You know, encourage In fact I started to say just encourage your legislators. But, rocky, isn't there a role here at the school board level as well? Because I think the Texas legislation allows a school to decide whether or not to do this, and so I remember seeing some school boards voting on this. So should people that are listening also be going to their local school boards, not just their legislators?

Rocky Malloy

Well, the time to vote in Texas has passed, so the day. We're still collecting the data, but it looks like a majority of school districts voted in favor of chaplains.

Rick Green

Oh, wow.

Rocky Malloy

And so it was kind of the classic blue-red, which is really unfortunate because religious minorities and racial minorities are the greatest benefactors of chaplains. So people are afraid that it could be dangerous for alternative lifestyle children and all that Life is dangerous enough for them 40 times more likely to commit suicide if you're an alternative lifestyle child. But whatever that is, chaplains reduce bullying, so whatever groups get beat up on, when the chaplain shows up it stops happening because there's an adult there that knows what the righteousness is supposed to look like, not just like a regular teacher. So they're the safe person to go to 

So they're the safe person to go to, so they really help protect everyone's freedom. 

I love it. Ah, so good, Rocky, you're doing the lord's work, man, making a big difference out there in our country and in our home state of Texas, here, but now across the nation. Uh, just a fantastic thing for people to get involved in and be a part of Phone number if you're interested in possibly being a chaplain, find out what it takes to be a chaplain 405-831-3299. And then for all of the different things donating to help make this happen across the country, following legislation in your state and helping to get legislators involved in getting this done in your particular state perhaps what's happening in your local school as well. All of that go to campuschaplains.org. Campuschaplains.org. Rocky. God bless you, man. Let's get you back soon for another update.

Rocky Malloy

Yes, sir, thank you.

Rick Green

Stay with us folks. We'll be right back with David and Tim Barton.

Tim Barton

Hey guys, it's Tim Barton and I want to tell you about our new book, the American Story Building the Republic. We start with George Washington as president and we've already become a nation. So really now it's how do we function as a nation? And if we look back in American history, the stability, the prosperity, success we enjoyed as Americans is because of the foundation that our early presidents laid, because of the examples they set. How do we live in America under the Constitution? What is the role of federal government and really what part did each one of these early presidents play? We go to the first seven presidents and a lot of people probably know the names Washington, Adams, Jefferson and Madison. Very few people know about Monroe or John Quincy Adams or Andrew Jackson. Now, we might know some of their names, we really don't know their stories. We want you to relearn, rediscover American history and see how it applies to today. Go to wallbuilders.com and get your copy of the American Story Building the Republic.

Rick Green

We're back here on WallBuilders. Thanks for staying with us, thanks to Rocky Malloy for joining us. Good news, guys. I mean it's obviously a difference maker. I mean, listen to those stats. I mean everybody should want that happening in their community.

David Barton

You know, in listening to Rocky go through those stats, I was reminded of an article I saw, I think, about a week ago, but Richard Dawkins, who is the leading atheist, one of the best known atheists in the world. He's in an article recently. He's lamenting the decline of Christianity. Now think about that. You have an atheist who's lamenting the decline of Christianity. And this is what I copied his quote. I love it.

Here's this atheist. He says I like to live in a culturally Christian country, although I do not believe a single word of the Christian faith. So what's he like? He likes a Christian culture. He doesn't believe in Christianity, but he likes what it produces. And look at all the fruit that's coming in these schools that have already started chaplains they're having chaplains. And look at the better fruit that you have If you do what Jesus said judge a tree by its fruits. Look how much better the community is going to be because of this. Look how better the lives of these kids are going to be, the lives of these teachers, the people who don't get hurt in crimes that might've been committed because now we're seeing crime go down in these areas. This is good stuff. This is cultural Christianity and that's the way it should have an impact is on the culture.

Tim Barton

Well, guys, it blows my mind that the schools that have had chaplains have had zero suicides. Right, and you feel like, okay, it's only going to be a matter of time. But here's the reality is, when you are looking at the suicide epidemic, when you have hopelessness, when there is no God, right, and then what is the purpose of your life? Well, where's their meaning in life? How do you have vision for their life if there is no God? But once you learn there is a God and that you're not an accident and you're here on purpose, for a reason. God made you for such a time as this, it makes way more sense why you wouldn't have suicide if you know that life has meaning and your life has value and there's purpose. This is incredible and I'm so glad he's out there doing this for everybody listening. You ought to see if your state is working on this piece of legislation. Contact your legislature, see if this can happen in your state. If you're involved locally in a school board, see what you can do to get a chaplain in your school. It will make a difference for the students there.

Rick Green

Well, folks, there you go. There's an action step for you. Make sure you go to that website today and look for ways to get chaplains into your local schools. Listen, most of our audience private school, homeschool I hope, in fact, I encourage everybody get your kid out of these public schools. One reason we're so for school choice we want to enable families to get their kids into a better environment and a school system that's going to actually support your values instead of tear them down. But there's still a lot of people in your community. Even if you're already homeschooling in a private school, you've got people in your community that still have their kids in those schools and it is much better to have a chaplain in that school and it's better for your family, for your community. Please be a part of this. We appreciate you listening. You've been listening The WallBuilders Show