Historic Quote: 0:12
Calvin Coolidge said the more I study the Constitution, the more I realize that no other document devised by the hand of man has brought so much progress and happiness to humanity. To live under the American Constitution is the greatest political privilege that was ever accorded to the human race.

Rick Green: 0:38
This is the intersection of faith and the culture. Thanks for joining us today on WallBuilders Live. We're taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical and constitutional perspective. If you want to know the right position on any issue out there, that's how you do it. You say, hey, what does the Bible have to say about this? I've got to be in God's word every day to know these things. But then what can history teach me about this as well? What works and doesn't work? History shows us that. And then, of course, our Constitution. If you're going to apply these things appropriately under our system of government, we have to know the Constitution and get that constitutional perspective as well. So that's why we always say WallBuilders Live, looking at things from a biblical, historical and constitutional perspective. We're doing that with David Barton. This guy is America's premier historian. I am so honored to get to work with David. For the last couple of decades. I've run into so many people that are serving in the legislatures of states all over the country, in Congress and Washington DC, school boards, city councils, you name it that say I ran for office because I saw this from David Barton or I read this from David Barton. David has been a catalyst for restoring biblical values and constitutional principles and so thankful for that and just thrilled to be here with WallBuilders and of course the name WallBuilders comes from that scripture in Nehemiah that says Arise and Rebuild the Walls that we may no longer be a reproach. We've got to rebuild the foundations. Folks, right here in America there's major cracks in the foundation. We've got real problems and rot in the culture. But the good news is it's been revealed over the last couple of years Sunlight is the best disinfectant and now we know it's there and we're learning what to do to restore the foundations in America. So we're here with David. We're also here with Tim Barton. He's a national speaker and pastor and president of WallBuilders. You ought to book him into your community, to your church, to your business organization, to speak. I'm telling you he'll light people on fire. He'll get them excited, give them hope and give them answers to how to turn this culture around. My name is Rick Green, I'm a former Texas legislator and America's Constitution Coach and it's Foundations of Freedom Thursday. So let's get started. Today you send in your questions to radioatwalbletterscom. Send your questions to radioatwalbletterscom. Alright, David and Tim, let's dive in. First question today is coming from Tony. He said WallBuilders, peeps. I like that, tony. He said All the information you provide is much appreciated, greatly needed. Thank you. While enjoying the video Foundations of Freedom, one section discusses the images of the lawgivers being placed in the congressional chamber. If Hammurabi was not discovered until the 1900s, why is there an image of him? As stated in the video, he would not have had a direct influence on our laws, so why recognize him there, especially after hearing the example of one of his laws where an accused is thrown into a river to decide guilt? Help me understand why the builders of the chamber would include him. Alright, tony, great question. David Tim Hammurabi on the congressional chamber.

David Barton: 3:23
So Hammurabi is. His legal works are not well known because they didn't discover the code of Hammurabi until 1901. So it's only been in modern knowledge. For maybe you know a century thereabouts, but once you read his code you find out that, hey, this was significant stuff back in 1750 BC. So he was a significant lawmaker and law giver in the Babylonian world in 1750 BC, and so that's why they recognized him, because he had a real impact on that culture, I mean as the law giver for that. And that Babylonian empire was vast at that point in time. It was like all the known world, at least the people who didn't know where the other part of the world was. They didn't know. This is the part of the world they knew. So it was the known world. So he has a huge influence. Now, what's ridiculous about it? And, by the way, I understand why they would put him up in the US Capitol? Because in the chamber where they make law, and that is in the House of Representatives where laws begin, there are 23 law givers there, and so they go up from all types and areas. Manamides is a famous Jewish lawmaker. You're going to have Hammurabi American law givers. They look to George Mason and Thomas Jefferson's American law givers. So they have them from all different parts of the world, all these people who had an impact through making a law for their nations and their countries. They're all there Now in the US Capitol. The one that gets the really special attention is Moses, because he's the law giver of the Bible and the Bible is what has had such an impact on America. So out of the 23 law givers, they give a special shout out, a special position, a special place for Moses among those 23 law givers. But, backing up, if you go back into the 1980s, when the court was regularly removing anything religious from public square, they'd already taken out prayer and Bible reading. They took out graduation prayers and they got invocations and they took out nativity scenes. They were taking all this stuff out. They said they had law cases that came to them and said, hey, how about the Ten Commandments? Because that says to keep God as your God and that's religious and we can't have people seeing that. And so, literally in courthouses across the country federal courthouses, state courthouses the Ten Commandments were hanging because that was seen as the basis of all civil law in the Western world, plus even the Eastern world with the Jews for thousands of years. That was the basis of the law code and so, to take it out, they didn't want you to think they were being absolutely anti-religious. They said, well, if you show the Ten Commandments as part of overall laws for example, if you were to put up the Code of Justinian along with the Ten Commandments, and maybe the Code of Hammurabi along with the Ten Commandments, then we would be inclusive, then we would be pluralistic. But when you just got the Ten Commandments, that's just all Bible stuff and that's not inclusive and pluralistic. So that was what they were saying that this is really stupid on their part, because if you put up the Code of Justinian, it is an overt, absolutely Christian code and he says that right up front. He's acknowledging Jesus Christ and the supremacy of Christ in law. So for them to think that putting Justinian up is going to kind of water down the Ten Commandments is really silly. And then it's really silly to put up the Code of Hammurabi because even though he's a great lawgiver, when you compare it to where we are in the Western world I just went through and let me give the background to this Hammurabi's code is about 1750 BC, so he's in the Babylonian Empire. This is the code for that huge part of the world and it's got 282 laws in it. These 282 laws, it's like their legal code book. It has a prologue and an epilogue saying here's the purpose of these laws. But this is why we don't recognize Hammurabi, because these are not the laws that had an impact on America. For example, law number two he says that anyone brings an accusation against a man and the accused go to the river and leap into the river, which that's a really strange code from the beginning. But if he sinks in the river in other words, if he leaps in the river and drowns and there's a whole lot of folks who couldn't swim back in those days he says that if he sinks in the river and drowns, his accusers will take possession of his house. So if I accuse you of something and you go jump in the river and you can't swim, I'm going to get your house. This is going to be a good deal.

Tim Barton: 7:42
Did they have to jump in the river, or could you throw someone in the river?

David Barton: 7:46
Actually, they have both of them. There's times you can jump in the river and there's times you get thrown in the river and it's all about whether you can swim or not.

Tim Barton: 7:53
Yeah, hey, Rick, I think… you are guilty of not being a fan of true sports and you only are, like a Rangers Astros fan. I'm going to throw you in the river and I'm going to claim your really nice new gun range, unless you can swim. But then did it matter if, like there were crocodiles, did that? So if crocodiles eat you, I feel like that person would still be found guilty and I still get his home in gun range, right? Is that how I'm reading this? Is that correct?

Rick Green: 8:27
I feel like our producer should be playing, bringing some music here for Splish Flash I was taking about.

David Barton: 8:34
Let me bring. I'm going to bring the producer into this because I'm going to say you really want to do some shopping with what you're doing, tim. So you look at Justin and you look at Rick and you say, well, Rick can swim and Justin can't. So I really want to go claim all of Justin's stuff because he can't swim. If Rick can swim, you don't get any benefit out of that. So you want to do some shopping. When you apply this law, figure out who can and can't swim and then take their stuff.

Tim Barton: 8:57
And not to say that Justin can't swim. He might, I don't know. But I also thought it's interesting. If you throw them in and they sink, I guess they hadn't learned. You could take a really big breath and the oxygen might keep you above the water. Right, you know the balance. Anyway, not to distract too much from where you're going, what else is in the code? That might be the reason that that's not what brought civilization to the western part of the world.

David Barton: 9:22
That's, I'm going to continue with law too. So if anyone bring an accusation against a man and the accused go to the river and lippin' the river, if he sinks in the river and drowns, the accuser will take possession of his home. But if they grab this, but if the river proves that the accused is not guilty you don't have a jury proven this If the river proves that you're not guilty, and if you can swim and if you can escape unheard, then he who brought the accusation shall be put to death, while he who leaped into the river shall take possession of the house that belonged to his accuser.

Tim Barton: 9:52
Ooh, so if Rick can swim, he gets all my stuff, that's it and you got all my stuff Actually wait, wait, wait, wait.

Rick Green: 9:59
And it's actually the fact that when I swim, it will prove that baseball is the real sport and that it was tailing up. That was following other things that aren't quite sports, like basketball, football, that sort of thing, and then I would get all the Tim's stuff. I like that, I like that.

David Barton: 10:15
And, by the way, I can already tell that the code of honor Abai is going to have a huge impact on American culture, because we still do this today. We still throw people in the river and if they can't swim, it's around with Well, maybe not, maybe not.

Tim Barton: 10:27
I do remember that's how John Wayne once taught a boy to swim. But, but, but it wasn't about.

Rick Green: 10:34
did he get a key?

David Barton: 10:36
Big.

Tim Barton: 10:36
Jake, that's great. It wasn't about did he get to keep his stuff or not. So I was like wait a second. No, I think it was. I think it was Hondo, I don't. It wasn't Big Jake. Oh, you're right.

David Barton: 10:46
Big Jake is when they jumped in the river to avoid the bullets. So you're right, it was it was Hondo.

Tim Barton: 10:51
No, that was Sons of Katie Elder is when they jump in the lake to avoid the bullets.

David Barton: 10:56
No, no, no, because he's got that automatic pistol, that brand new 1911, but it's only 1909.

Tim Barton: 11:01
So not when bad guys are shooting it. Okay, I'm not already. I need to apologize to all the listeners, as we're having our John Wayne trivia debates of these movies and some of our friends that are listening now like us even more because we're talking about some of the great John Wayne classics. Anyway, I just had a great idea.

Rick Green: 11:20
I think at the legislators conference, when we bring in the legislators from all over the country, we're going to have a session with Jeopardy music and we're going to put David and Tim up on stage and I'm going to test them on John Wayne trivia and we'll see who wins. I think that would be fun.

Tim Barton: 11:36
Yeah, we should do that it's like the angel of the bad man. I'm ready.

Rick Green: 11:40
Yeah, that's right so. So I'm a Robbie though. So that's the I mean. It's not that it did have an impact on a bunch of American law.

David Barton: 11:51
Hang on, Rick, it might have had an impact. Let me read you some more laws and you'll easily see the impact this had. That was law number two. Law number 132 says if the finger is pointed at a man's wife about another man, in other words, if you accuse her of adultery, if the finger is pointed, if the finger is pointed at a man's wife about another man, but she is not caught actually sleeping with the other man, then she shall go jump into the river for her husband and drown herself. Wow, okay, that's the way you're going to show your love is go kill yourself. So if I want a new wife, I just make this accusation. You got to go drown yourself. I mean it's crazy.

Tim Barton: 12:29
Well, and I think this is where it's easy to point out that certainly the code of Hammurabi is not a foundation or basis for any kind of a law and civilization in the Western world. Right, that's obviously the Bible, the 10 commandments, where the foundation of law, of civilization in the Western world. But to say we weren't influenced by it, well, it's different to say we modeled it. But influence can go different ways, because you might be influenced to look and say, hey, we're never doing what that says and we're going to make sure we have a different standard. So you actually can be influenced by something and not model what it is. And so it wouldn't make a difference how we're describing the influence of it. Because I would think I mean even remembering when the founding fathers were debating the Constitutional Commission. They said, look, we've examined or reviewed everything. Now, back then, if the code of Hammurabi had not yet been rediscovered, the founding fathers wouldn't have debated that, but they would have debated things that would have been only as examples of what we are not going to do and say, hey, okay, look at this over here, we know we're not doing that. Look at this over here, we know we're not doing that. Look at this. Oh, maybe we can do part of that, and so it can still be an influence, even if it's only influencing you, of what you are not going to do.

David Barton: 13:47
Oh, I've got lots to others, but you get the tone. And there's 282 laws and this is not what we modeled after. As you said, Tim, it could be what we anti-modeled after, except our founders didn't know this existed back then. But clearly, for judges to say that you need to have the code of Hammurabi if you're going to show the 10 commandments, that makes absolutely no sense of its influence on American law except as an adverse influence. So great point.

Rick Green: 14:11
Alright, guys, great question. We'll get some more questions when we return. We're listening to WallBuilders.

Tim Barton: 14:25
Hey, this is Tim Barton, with WallBuilders, and, as you've had the opportunity to listen to WallBuilders Live, you've probably heard the wealth of information about our nation, about our spiritual heritage, about the religious liberties, about all the things that makes America exceptional. And you might be thinking, as incredible as this information is, I wish there was a way that I could get one of the WallBuilders guys to come to my area and share with my group whether it be a church, whether it be a Christian school or public school or some political event or activity. If you're interested in having a WallBuilders speaker come to your area, you can get on our website at www.WallBuilders.com and there's a tab for scheduling and if you'll click on that tab, you'll notice there's a list of information from speakers bios to events that are already going on, and there's a section where you can request an event to bring this information about who we are, where we came from, our religious liberties and freedoms. Go to the WallBuilders website and bring a speaker to your area.

Historic Quote: 15:26
Thomas Jefferson said, the constitutions of most of our states and of the United States assert that all power is apparent in the people, that they may exercise it by themselves, that is their right and duty to be at all times armed, and that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property and freedom of press.

Rick Green: 15:56
Welcome back to Walbner's. Thanks for staying with us on this Foundation of Freedom. Thursday we're headed to Virginia with our next question. Adam writes in and says greetings, wonderful WallBuilders. We understand the cities often vote liberal and left and that the coastal areas often do the same. Can we discern any kind of philosophical reason that cities and coasts often vote liberal and the countryside typically votes conservatively? Does it somehow have to do with the weather and the natural environment? Thank you so much. Okay, I didn't see that coming, so the weather, natural environment could have something to do with it. I'm guessing it might be something else. But what do you guys think?

David Barton: 16:33
I think it's something else and I think the founders put their finger on in several different ways. I'm going to read I've got five quotes here from the founding fathers about city versus country and after we get done reading those quotes, you'll see what they thought was the difference between it. And so here's what. Here's what Jefferson says. I view great cities as pestilential to the morals, the health and the liberties of man. Now, why would great cities be pestilential to the morals? Because of what goes on in groups. You don't have the same moral difficulties and the same kind of stuff. That happens individually happens in groups usually. But liberties I find is interesting. They say, hey, when you get in the cities you have less liberty than when you live in the country, which is true because there's more regulations, there's more micro managing, there's more what you can and can't do, and when you can and can do when you live in the country you're pretty much self regulated. You have liberty. You have to pay for abuses that liberty. So if you abuse that liberty out there, it makes a difference. But you start with more liberty. To start with, it's your own self control that becomes the limit. Here's one from Benjamin Rush. He's talking to Jefferson. He said I agree with you and your opinion of cities. He said, counter the poet very happily expresses our ideas of them compared with the country. So now Rush is going to quote a poet, calper, on the difference between city and country. He said God made the country, man made cities. That's a pretty clear distinction and it goes back to where the Bible says in Psalm 46, be still and know that I'm God. You can't know that God's God when you're in New York City and all you can see is concrete in every direction you look. You get out in the country and you know that God's God. You know how hard it is to find an atheist in the country compared to the city. You find lots of atheists in the city, it's hard to find an atheist in the country. Rush continues he said I consider cities in the same light. Now remember Rush is a doctor. He says I consider cities in the same light that I do abscesses on the human body. They're reservoirs of all the impurities of a community. So he sees the city as where all the bad stuff comes. It kind of infects itself, it reinfects itself, it keeps that infection going. Here's another one from Thomas Jefferson. He said when we get piled upon one another in large cities as Europe does, we shall become as corrupt as Europe. So America was a wilderness frontier kind of area without the big cities. He said if we ever get big cities, like Europe does, we're going to be just as corrupt as Europe was. Here's one from Jefferson again. He says I'm not a friend to placing growing men, young people, in populous cities because they acquire there the habits and particularities which do not contribute to the happiness of their afterlife. So if you're in a city you're going to have a lot more sins that are going to affect you in afterlife. You're not as likely to be God fearing and godly, and etc. And the final one is from James Madison. He says competency. And if I talk about competency, how would you define that word? He uses the word competency. What do you think that means today?

Tim Barton: 19:37
Good, at something. Yeah, I don't know as an interesting thought of, yeah, the way the fact you say today means. In my mind there's a contrast of what it may be back, if we go to Webster's 1828 dictionary, so that I'm thinking what? What would they have thought it would be different from us? Because, Rick, as you pointed out, it's competence is someone that has a ability, a gifting, a talent in a specific area, so a specific skillset or understanding in an area. Now let me expand it.

David Barton: 20:11
Here's this phrase competency is more universally the lot of those who dwell in the country. So, country versus city, those who dwell in the country have more universal competency. They can do more things. They're able to do all sorts of stuff because they've got to fix everything, repair everything, build everything, make everything. They can't go to a plumber to do something, they can't go to an electrician. They got to do all the stuff themselves.

Rick Green: 20:36
So universal competency, almost a competent at life. I mean that's right.

David Barton: 20:41
That's exactly it. They can do a lot more things. There are a lot more competent, a lot more. In the city you're kind of a specialist in some area. You know your specialist is a grocer, your specialist is whatever you are, but in the country you do all of it. Here's what he says. He says competency is more universally the lot of those who dwell in the country and liberty is at the same time. They're a lot, so there's a lot more liberty in the country, in their city, which is what the other founders have said. He said the extremes, both of want and of waste, are from the cities. So a lot of want, a lot of need, a lot of poverty, a lot of waste. That's city. He says it's not the country that populates either the jails or the mental institutions. Those mansions of wretchedness are tenanted from the distresses and vice of overgrown cities. So your mental health is much different in the city than it is in the country. Jails are much more needed in the city than in the country. I mean, all these guys go through. They see it as a big deal. Now it's striking to me if you think about the Tower of Babel, that's the first grade city in the Bible. And God said I'm going to disperse you, I don't want you in this big city, I'm going to send you all out. So Nimrod built that big city and drew everybody together. And the Bible says that God dispersed them, which is he sent them out. He sent them in different directions. So it's like cities is the invention of man and countries is the invention of God, so to speak. And so there's a lot more moral difficulties, a lot more spiritual difficulties, a lot more mental health difficulties, et cetera, that come from the cities. And you see that, even in the morality today, if you take a state like New York or a state like Illinois or a state like any other state, the cities vote much more anti-biblically and much more anti-moral than do the country folks. Country folks in Southern Illinois are going to be pro-life, they're going to be pro-religious liberty, pro-marriage. In Chicago, a whole different story. New York City versus the rest of the state. Same thing, the same when you get into Houston versus the towns that are outside of that, small communities. So, looking at it, the founding fathers you read their writings on it. This was a big deal to them and they didn't like to see people stacked up on top of each other, which is literally what they have here. So I think they answered the question by pointing to the spiritual things, pointing to the social things, pointing to the lack of, if you want to say, the competency to do all things, kind of not multitask, but multi-competency. That's a whole lot more of people who live in the country who have to do for themselves and figure out ways to get things done. So that's the founding fathers answer to that question.

Rick Green: 23:22
Yeah, I mean, I think about it. Even just work ethic and not even just getting being good at those things, but having to do things right, not getting to be as lazy or be waiting on so much.

David Barton: 23:34
Let me jump into what you just said. Because in the city you have a set time that you work nine to five or nine to 430, whatever it is. In the country you know how long you work. We always said from can see to can't see. I mean from the time you can see to the time you can't see.

Tim Barton: 23:49
That was the old axiom for a country life, that's also where the joke came in that you shouldn't work for a farmer who has headlights on a tractor because you gotta try it. Then your past can't see you keep going, but in the country you work until the job is done, and the job is almost never done. There's always work to be done. The more property you have, the more projects there are. You have the garden, you have the crops and you have the animals and you have the fence and the trees, and there's always work to be done. But when you are busy with your back and your hands and your mind, it does something in a lot of very healthy ways for you. You don't see and we've talked about this a lot just on an individual basis, off of the program. You don't see a lot of farmers, a lot of ranchers, who are having mental health breakdowns, right. You don't see those kind of guys having those kind of issues. Because when you go out and you are working with your hands, you're working with your body, you're engaging your mind and what you're doing and expanding your competency in so many areas it really does something spiritually reviving for you. That's it's one of the things we tell people often. One of the best things you can do is go get out in nature, take a hike in nature. There's something about being outside, being in creation. That is very healthy for you and it's also worth pointing out that God had already given Adam a job before sin entered the world, which means work was not part of the fall. Work was part of God's design and intent, and God's design and intent initially was man working outside in his creation. That's what Adam was doing, and I think that's why it's so satisfying for those of us who've ever been outside and you've worked outside, whether you were cleaning brush or running a chainsaw or tractor, even mowing for guys that mow, and actually there's some ladies that love to mow too it does something for you on a mental, a physical, a spiritual, emotional level to be out working creation.

Rick Green: 25:57
It's 100% true, guys. That's such a good answer and I will say to them that if my wife Kara's listening today, she's giving you a thumbs up because she's one of those women that loves to mow, which means I get stuck on the weed eater forever. I'm not sure that's fair, but who cares what's fair? We have a good time. Anyway, really really good answer that guys and we said for a long time, get out of the blue cities. You know, get out of these big cities and get at least a little bit out in the country If you can. It's going to be better for your kids too. But great program today, guys. Thanks for all the questions. Everybody's sending those in, be sure, and send more to us. radio@WallBuilders.com. You've been listening to WallBuilders.