Rick Green: 0:08
Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture, it's WallBuilders, we're taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical and constitutional perspective. My name is Rick Green. I'm America's Constitution Coach, former Texas legislator, normally here with David and Tim Barton. David is America's premier historian and our founder here at WallBuilders and Tim, of course, national speaker and pastor and president of WallBuilders. I say normally with them because today we're going to bring you a little sneak peek from The Tavern again. You know we've done this, I think once, maybe twice, where we actually shared an interview from my show, The Tavern, that I do with Warrior Poets Society Network and with their permission and PatriotU's permission, we like to give at least part of some of those interviews that are just incredible. They're in The Tavern where we talk about revolutionary strategies and tactics to restore America's constitutional republic and we love to bring some of that to you here on WallBuilders because we love our WallBuilders audience. And John Cooper from Skillet joined me in The Tavern. We had a great discussion, clanked mugs and, man, just talked about a lot of cool stuff, including his new book. So we're going to, we're going to just share some of that with you here today, on WallBuilders. Let's dive right in. This is from The Tavern, episode 3, which you can get at Warrior Poets Society Network or you can get it at PatriotU. That's PatriotAcademy.tv . PatriotAcademy.tv is where you get PatriotU. But this is John Cooper joining me in The Tavern. Alright, last week we had a UFC fighter, Beneil Dariush, ranked fourth in the world in the lightweight division. Great, incredible Patriot that appreciates freedom. You know came from Iran, his wife from Vietnam, so he understands the value of freedom. This week we've got a rocker, in fact one of the greatest rockers of our time. I am such a fan of Skillet, but I'm an even greater fan of Cooper Stuff, John Cooper's podcast. John Cooper with us. John, thanks for joining me in The Tavern, brother. I appreciate you coming in and being willing to clank mugs a little bit and sharpen each other's countenance.

John Cooper: 2:08
Yeah, I wish I was there to clank mugs, especially with that huge Viking mug you have. But we'll have to do it over the digital, whatever you call it.

Rick Green: 2:21
Yeah, yeah, we'll make it work. I should have Shout your Freedom playing in the background or one of your other great songs, but, man, I tell you, you have been sounding the alarm. Talk about a Paul Revere of our time, you know. Basically letting people know this is what's happening in the culture. This is destroying the culture and one of the reasons I wanted to get you on, number one, you got a great new book coming out. We want to talk about that. But you just said something in your podcast just a couple of weeks ago that I thought summarized everything that's at stake right now and you basically said there's all this divide in the country and it essentially comes down to Christendom or chaos. And you said listen, either the way America was founded and building it on biblical foundations and the idea of truth is good, or it's not, and let's not have truth in the culture and let's see what happens. Summarize that for me again, based on your analysis of what's going on, what's at stake and why are we so divided in the country?

John Cooper: 3:16
Well, that's really kind, thank you. I mean, honestly, I haven't even been talking about this stuff for that long. It's only been a handful of years, and that's why, when I keep meeting people like you and lots of other people I meet, I'm like oh my gosh, people have been talking about this for a really long time. For me, it was, I mean, when I started noticing this was only gosh 2014. I started going what in the world is going on? And I honestly just didn't understand. As opposed to going, yeah, I kind of knew this stuff and now it was becoming real, it was more like I don't understand what's happening. And this journey has led me to where I'm at right now realizing that, wow, people really hate America, but what they actually really hate is God. And I think that if you had said that to me 10 years ago, I think I would have been like okay, Rick, that's a little extreme, you know. I think I would have been like I think you're, you're being a little as my, as my daughter would say you might be, You're being a little extra. That's what she says. You're being a little extra, because people don't actually like hate. They don't want to tear down Christianity. They don't want to tear down everything that that has built this country from the bottom up and start over again. Nobody in the right mind would want to do that, and I'll tell you I was wrong. I mean, people really hate the world that Christianity created. And then you have Christians who do like America but refuse to believe that it was created because of Christian culture. So then you have Christians going well, I like America, but it was never a Christian nation, it was never based on Christianity. So then it's like we're fighting everybody on all sides and once you start to read the material, you go, oh, this actually is true. Christianity provided the soil, the bedrock, the moral foundation of the world we're living in, and it produced the most prosperous, freest, most civilized nation on planet Earth. And now we're just going to I'm trying to think of a nice way to say it, we're about to throw it all away. We're just kind of like, eh, it's all right and it's really sad. It really does feel like the story of the prodigal son in the Bible. It feels like the prodigal son take... I want all my inheritance now, give it to me and I'm just going to waste it, because who really cares? That's what it feels like, that, not just that our nation is doing, but I think Christians need to wake up and realize you're throwing away this great inheritance.

Rick Green: 6:00
Yeah, man, it's a lot like we did a big Constitution Day event a couple weeks ago and Kirk Cameron came down. We called it Comedy Constitutional Revival and Kirk, at the end of the night, told the story of King Alfred fighting the Vikings and speaking of my Viking mug here. But fighting the Vikings and fighting people from his own country, it's like what you're describing. It's like he's surrounded on all sides in impossible situation and God intervened. I feel like we're there, what you just described and you said you weren't really talking about this stuff or hadn't really realized this was there until in the last few years. We were actually talking about you on our Back Porch last night. The whole Green family are Skillet fans, so when I want to be cool to my kids, when you text me as some Constitution question, I make sure and say, oh, excuse me, John Cooper's texting and so that makes me cool to my kids. I just want you to know I use you for that all the time. But anyway, my wife made the comment last night. She's like well, the reason you like Cooper Stuff so much is because in a lot of ways John has seen a lot of this stuff for the first time and he's taking it in and he's analyzing it and it's a fresh perspective that's bringing a lot of you've got biblical wisdom that you bring to the table in this analysis of what's going on. And I think she's right. I think that's what, because you've asked me that before. You're like, why do you like my podcast so much? And you're literally I'm not saying this because you're on the show and here in The Tavern with me when people ask me who to listen to. You are my number one podcast choice. I know it's only once a week, but still it's like I don't get to listen to a lot of stuff. So when it's time for me to catch up, I catch up on you first and then I go to some of our mutual friends at Daily Wire and some other stuff. I just think it's that good and I think her point is right. I think you're hungry, man, and you realize what's at stake and so you're like gobbling up all this information out there and regurgitating in a way that makes sense and for other people that are just waking up, gives them a chance. I was going to be really cheesy and do a Dad joke and say become Awake and Alive. My kids would be so mad if they knew I did that just now, anyway, so I think that's why what you're doing is working so well. I think one thing that's cool, though, is you have a bunch of fans now that didn't even know you as a musician, like didn't know you, weren't a fan of your music. They didn't know your music, but they found Cooper Stuff, and they're a fan of what you're doing on Cooper. How weird is that for you? For 20 years, you've been known as Skillet and now you're getting known in some of these circles as a podcaster.

John Cooper: 8:17
It is very funny. Well, that's very kind of you to say. I mean, with all my heart. I have no idea why you would want to listen to Cooper Stuff, but it is very encouraging. Yeah, it is funny because I meet people now and they're like I didn't even know you were a band. For instance, somebody was like recent, was like staring at me in an airport, and he's just like are you who I think you are? And I was like I don't know, maybe. And I said I'm John, and he's like are you who I think you are, though? Are you that John? I said, oh, yeah, I play in Skillet. And he's like, oh, I don't know what Skillet is. And I said, oh, okay, and then later he goes, he goes. I feel like I've seen you like on an Elisa Childers podcast or something like that. I was like, oh, that was me too.

Rick Green: 9:06
Well, you had to. There had to be a little bit of an internal struggle for you as you began to decide to speak out, because, being a world famous musician, you're going to lose some fans, because you definitely got people from both sides that listen to your music and I would think that had to have been at least a consideration for a little bit. You're a bold guy. I know that your music is bold. You talk about being bold, but still you got to have at least a moment of calculation going. Okay, do I really want to step into all this? Talk me through that a little bit, and why you said I got to speak truth.

John Cooper: 9:41
You know what. You're absolutely right and it's funny because I haven't actually shared this. I mean, all the interviews I've done for the last three years, I've hardly ever talked about this because I never see myself as a victim. I don't see like I sacrificed all this for Jesus or something like that, or I'm some massive patriot, I never served my country, I'm not suffering, so I never talk about it. But the truth is, yes, it was a bummer, because I've always believed that music brings people together and I like that. I like that people come to my shows Christian, non-christian, atheist, sometimes anti-Christian fans. They're like I'm against Christianity, but, John, your music makes me feel good. I've been told that more times than I can count and I'm like good, I want you to come and have a good time. There's got to be something we can share as human beings where we don't all have to vote the same and believe the same. Music brings people together and I never wanted to be somebody outside of the fact, like, if you hate my music because I love Jesus, well that's fine with me, but I don't want you to hate me because I vote conservative or something like that. You know I mean because I don't. That's not what my job is, so it was difficult. What happened for me is what I really believed with all my heart was that we are going to lose the country and it's going to become difficult to preach the gospel if we don't stand up. And what I thought, what I saw in 2020, because I like political philosophy not that I know that much, but I like it and I was going well, wait a minute. If the government has the power to shut my church down indefinitely, then they also have the power to control what my church may or may not say. If they ever allow us to open up, if they can right, if they can force me to take the jab, well, what else can they force me to do? They could probably force me to only have one child, or no children, or whatever for their climate agenda. I mean, I was seeing these sayings going well, all you're going to do is kind of like follow the dots. What do they call it? Painting by numbers? I think they call it. All you're going to do is paint by numbers. You paint the dots and what do you have at the end? You have the tyranny of the state, which is what the Bible warns us about so much of the time when we talk the Old and New Testament, talking about the beast in prophetic literature, in the Bible, and usually the beast is a dictator or some sort of totalitarian government that tries to become a totalizing, god-like power, because a totalizing governmental system will set itself up against the knowledge of Christ. There could only be one, you know, sort of like Lord of the Rings. There could only be one Lord of the Rings, right, there could only be one totalizing king, one ring to rule them all. Yeah, that's it. There could only be one totalizing king. We have that already in Jesus Christ. So I was going well, gosh, this kind of looks like the beast to me. So we have to stand up against it, and I don't want it in my career. But I believe that we are at that time that the freedom to preach the gospel was tied into speaking out against this tyranny, and so that's why we did.

Rick Green: 12:54
How much pushback did you get? Or you know, did you end up with shows canceled or any of that type of stuff? Or were you able to to weather that? And of course, at the time I guess you weren't even able to do many shows. Once you were really starting to speak out in COVID with all the insanity of the COVID crackdowns. But what was the pushback like?

John Cooper: 13:12
Yeah, well, you're all correct, it was during the lockdown. It was during the lockdowns, people were doing shows, so it's like who knows if this is ever even going to happen again. But you think this can't last forever, I mean, and we're going to be back touring. The pushback was insane. I will tell you it was crazy. Every week a music blog was coming out against me, against what I was saying. It's the first time we've ever gotten that kind of publicity. It's the first time everybody knew our names. But I just started coming off the leash on everything and one of the things that I probably got probably the most press, the most famous I've ever been, was after the music awards. I think it was the MTV Awards. It was all at the same time and I just couldn't take everything happening. And when they had the, it was Cardi B and Megan Thee Stallion did their performance and it was super over the top sexual and I said something about it and it went viral and that's a whole crazy story. All of that was at the same time and that was fueled to the fire of why people hated us, but they never hated us like they did when I came out with an episode called Would Jesus Wear a Mask. And the reason I said it is because you had all these Christian evangelical leaders, David French and Beth Moore. All these people were saying, if you're not wearing a mask, then you're basically like the worst Christian ever, you're a terrible Christian. And so I just you don't love people, yeah, yeah, you want people to die. You're killing grandma. And I just thought, well, I'll just do a podcast called Would Jesus Wear a Mask, and honestly, it was so gracious. I wasn't saying that Jesus would it wear one. I'm saying that the idea of saying that, Rick, if you don't wear a mask, then you are not being a follower of Jesus, I was like that's phariseical. That's like saying, if you wear this certain color of clothing, you're not a Christian. It's a very like phariseical thing to do. And I just said, for my part, I've read the literature. I don't think the masks do anything. I think it's theater and I think that I've read more literature than most everybody on the internet has. It doesn't take all that. While you read two or three hours, you kind of get what you need. I think it's theater. And if it worked then you wouldn't have former president Obama having a huge party at his house with no one wearing masks. That went. You were Gavin Newsom going to the big fancy dinner. Yes, and I named him Gavin Newsom. Lightfoot, mayor Lightfoot in Chicago. Who is the people and who is the prime minister of Boris Johnson, of oh, boris Johnson, yeah, yeah, we wouldn't have all that happening. And I will tell you, brother, they never come after me. That is when it was confirmed to me. I've been preaching Jesus at these concerts for 20 years. People, the industry, doesn't like it. I've talked about abortion. The industry really hates that. I've talked about lots of stuff, but when I came out against the power of the state, they lost their minds. And that's when I said this has become a God to them. This is their Caesar, you know. Yes, they would not be freaking out like this. And so then, once everything opened up, we booked a tour. This is the last story I'll tell you. We booked a tour, it was all booked, and then it came down that in a few of the concerts the venues came out and said by the way, these are vaccine mandated shows, venues. And I told my manager, I just said there is no way. There is no way on earth, I'm doing a vaccine mandated show. And he said, okay, we'll try to change shows. And I said, well, I'm going to make an announcement about it. So I made an announcement about it. I said, hey, we're not doing vaccine mandated shows. So I think we're the first band to ever come out and say that the only person that may have said that before us was Eric Clapton, maybe. And, dude, the industry went nuts, and that's what I thought. You know what this is worth standing for? Because you're not going to see this sort of demons writhing around like they're writhing around like this If this isn't a God to them.

Rick Green: 17:27
You knew you were over the target at that point. I mean the level of vitriol, the level of hatred. I mean you hit their symbol. It's the symbol of the COVID cult and, like you said, it was their way to create the statism of and control. And I was like you. To me it was like living a lie. I mean, if you're requiring people to do that, you're not loving them, you're living a lie. You're lying to them about the danger of this thing. You're lying to them about what a mask will do. I mean it became a big deal to us as well. So I loved it when you stood up. Gotta take a quick break, folks. That's you're listening to my interview with John Cooper that we did on The Tavern. The tavern you can watch on Patriot U, which is Patriot Academy Dot TV, patriot Academy dot TV. Or you can watch it on warrior poet society network. John Cooper was my special guest in episode 3, sharing a bit of that interview with you here on WallBuilders. Stay with us. You're listening to WallBuilders.

Tim Barton: 18:25
Hi, friends, this is Tim Barton of WallBuilders. This is the time when most Americans don't know much about American history, or even heroes of the faith, and I know oftentimes for parents we're trying to find good content for our kids to read and if you remember, back to the Bible, to the book of Hebrews, it has the faith hall of fame where they outlined the leaders of faith that had gone before them. Well, this is something that, as Americans, we really want to go back and outline some of these heroes, not just of American history, but heroes of Christianity and our faith as well. I want to let you know about some biographical sketches we have available on our website. One is called the Courageous Leaders Collection, and this collection includes people like Abigail Adams, Abraham Lincoln, Francis Scott Key, George Washington Carver, Susanna Wesley, even the Wright brothers, and there's a second collection called Heroes of History, and this collection You'll read about people like Benjamin Franklin or Christopher Columbus, Daniel Boone, George Washington, Harriet Tubman, friends the list goes on and on. This is a great collection for your young person to have and read and it's a providential view of American and Christian history. This is available at WallBuilderscom that's www.WallBuilders.com.

Rick Green: 19:27
Welcome back to WallBuilders. Thanks for staying with us today. John Cooper is our special guest. It's an interview I had with him, John Cooper of skillet and of Cooper Stuff. Interview from The Tavern, episode 3. And let's just jump right in where we left off. I like in it too. It's basically you're either the Ephraimites, psalm 78, armed to the teeth and ran from the battle, had everything they needed to win and they ran off. Are you're, are you're a man of Issa Car? You understand the times and you, you know what to do. I think that's, honestly, that's what you keep asking why I love your podcast so much. I'm drawn to men of Issa car that understand the times and know what to do. You know your daughter, my daughter would probably say we, they know what, we know what time. It is right, the new expression on that it really is seeing this as it's happening and it's unfolding, and having enough wisdom to know. You know, to understand truth, understand the times and then know what to do. That's what you're doing. You're helping people understand that it's huge and there's so few that are you know, especially in the middle of it, and they heat of it, both with the, with the black lives matter and I call them black lives Maoist. Actually, one of my black friends that called into my show one time explained that to me. He's like they're Maoist man, they're communist. It's black lives Maoists. You need to start using that terms. I started using that term, but and then Kyle Rittenhouse I mean, my goodness, you know I do a lot of firearms training that kid to only hit the guys that that were at an immediate danger to him and nobody innocent. He pulled off a miracle. I mean it's phenomenal. I think the Holy Spirit was protecting him. He's supposed to come train it at our Patriot Academy facility last month and had to cancel. I've made him at a dinner a couple of months ago, but just just all of this stuff as it happened and you're commenting on it as we go. So I want to encourage everybody to listen to Cooper Stuff every week. Listen to John show. You will find a wealth of wisdom. It's it's good, it's entertaining and it's solid man. That's the thing. It's not just biblically solid, it's constitutionally solid. You're getting good advice from people. Your instincts are right on. So I love locking shields with you and appreciate what you're doing. I want to talk about your new book because you're going after the wimpy side. You know this whole perception that Christianity is petting lambs all day and and and you know not actually being the lion as well as the lamb. So tell us about the new book and what you hope people gain from it.

John Cooper: 21:40
Well, I appreciate it. Yeah, so you know, wimpy week and woke is the name of the book. I'll say it again, I'll say it slower wimpy week and woke. And I tell you what the title alone is triggered a lot of people on the last couple. But but here, speaking of us, what do you call this with the name of this show? It's called The Tavern. The tavern. Yeah, here's my mug. Oh, look at that.

Rick Green: 22:05
I smell coffee. Hey man, hey, a little clank right there, buddy.

John Cooper: 22:09
There we go. I love it. I mean part of what was happening with me as I was going. Okay, lord, what is it that's happening like? We have the social justice saying we have the insane Racism of anti-racism. That's happening like the Black Lives Malice, as you say. We have that happening. We have the sexual indoctrination of our kids. We actually have the sexual indoctrination of our churches. Now, whoa, somebody say amen, our churches are falling like flies to the sexual revolution and to BLM and to the racism of the anti-racism movement. You can go down the line with all the insane things that happen, whether it's the COVID cult, the pastors saying we got to shut down for three years to show everybody how much we love them, all of that happening. Not to mention the pastors that were saying if you don't get a shot and a double shot and a booster and 45 boosters, that you're actually causing the death of everybody. I mean this stuff was so crazy. I started saying, lord, what is all of this about? And what I ended up with was this all of these things are a way to get us to secular utopia. That's what they're about. We want to do away with Christendom, Christianity, with what has brought us here, and let's create some perfect world order, and one of the things that I really believe that I've said in the book. I'm sure somebody else has said this in one of their books before. I've never read it, but I'm sure they have, because there's no brand new ideas. Okay, but what I started noticing was wait a minute, if the world is building secular utopia, why are so many Christians involved in this? They keep sometimes they call it like quote unquote the gospel of the kingdom, which, by the way, we all believe in. The gospel of the kingdom, that's a wonderful thing, but what they mean when they say the gospel of the kingdom sounds an awful lot like socialism to me. And so I started going well, what did they mean when they say that we have to fight for justice and we have to make the world a better place? And what did they mean? And what I started noticing was that a lot of Christians also are actually utopian. And so what I said was this I want to write a book about utopia, and so it's called Wimpy, weak and Woke. The subtitle is how truth can save America from utopian destruction, and so I'll just tell you what Wimpy, weak and Woke stands for, and then I'll let you ask me whatever you want to ask me. This is good man. Go for it. Here's what it stands for. Number one we are Wimpy. Why are we Wimpy? We're Wimpy because we think that our tone matters more than truth, that being winsome matters more than the truth of the gospel. The truth sets us free, but we decided that we would rather be sweet to people than to see people set free. We are Wimpy because we believe that Jesus was Wimpy. We just think he was just like, as you said, petting lambs all day. We forget that Jesus is the lie to Judah. We are weak because we're weak philosophically. We haven't trained this brain, we haven't done any reading. We don't even know what the constitution says. So you got pastors out there saying it's not right to do this and with one question, with one question, you can stump these guys. I remember saying to somebody yeah, but you don't understand. The constitution says that they do not have the government does not have a right to come in here and tell us how to worship. So we don't even have to get into the biblical argument. What are you talking about with it? And boom, they're done with the constitutional argument, because they don't even have any idea. They don't even have any idea what our rights are as Christians. How can you lead a church when you don't even understand what our rights are?

Rick Green: 25:50
Wait a minute, John. It sounds like you're one of those crazy people that does your own research. I know we used to call that reading like actually picking up a book and reading it, but I'm told that's dangerous Like that. That's dangerous to our democracy, which we're not. We're a Republican, constitutional Republican. But how dare you actually do your own research? I'm sorry, man, go ahead. Yeah, you were on a roll. Alright, folks, that's it. I told you it was just a taste. Lot more there in the full episode of The Tavern which you can get at patreonacademytv that's where PatriotU is found or at Warrior Poets Society Network. Thanks for letting me share that with you today. A little bit different, but always love having John Cooper on and encourage you to watch Cooper Stuff as well. Thanks so much for listening. You've been listening to WallBuilders.