Rick Green: 0:00
Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture. It's WallBuilders. We're taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical and constitutional perspective. Great program lined up for you today, with special guest Michele Bachmann, and the Foundations of Law, part of Foundations of Freedom, with David Barton.

David Barton: 0:26
Welcome to Foundations of Freedom, where we look at important aspects of our common heritage about which most Americans today have been told absolutely nothing. Join me today is Congresswoman Michele Bachmann. Michele is a federal tax attorney. She is a successful businesswoman. She's a very successful mom, having raised five of her own kids and 23 foster kids. She's also a member of Congress, and in Congress she serves on some of the most important committees, such as the House Intelligence Committee, which is in charge of our national secrets. It's great to have you with us. Thanks for being here.

Michele Bachmann: 0:56
Great to be here today and I'm looking forward to unlocking some secrets here as well. A lot of Americans aren't familiar with it. This is so interesting because it's an area that every American is impacted by Today. Really, people around the world are impacted by this. It's very practical. It's very practical because the law is just some dry subject. This is a topic that was created in the mind of an almighty God and it isn't just one area, it's multiple areas. We see in the Bible that ceremonial laws, but then it's also the moral law, and all of us know a little bit about that, and it's judicial law, which I have to deal with as a lawyer but also as a legislator Remember Congress. We also deal with the social compact and those are the laws between people, horizontally to help our society work. So this is going to be great. I think people are going to learn a lot. I'm going to learn a lot, so I'm really excited to hear what you have to say today.

David Barton: 1:47
Great, let's see what some questions are that we've got from the audience. Okay, very good.

Question: 1:52
It seems like we have laws regulating everything these days how businesses are run, who they can hire, how clothes are made, what food we can buy, even what happens in churches. Is this the way government has always been?

David Barton: 2:05
Easy answer to that. No, that's the way secular government has always been. That's true when you get to a God conscious government and look at a God conscious government. We have great guidance on this one.

Michele Bachmann: 2:15
But don't we have a secular government? That's what we're told.

David Barton: 2:18
That's what we're here Talk about that. Well, we really don't have a secular government, and the reason we don't have a secular government is because God's the one who ordained it. Now, we do have a separation between the institutions of church and state, but we never separate God out of anything, and so the notion that God is to be separate from government, he doesn't buy that, because he's the one who ordained government. Genesis 9 is the first government in the history of the world. It came from God at his ordination. The Noahide Law is seven categories of civil laws. God is in the civil laws. The Bible has 613 civil laws in it. God's really good on everything from immigration to taxation, to military, to family, to business you name it. He's got it all.

Michele Bachmann: 2:54
So here you have God and God's laws and here you have a civil government that you just talked about. How do you have a civil government and yet God's a little bit, a little bit, a part of it, a lot of part of it, no part of it.

David Barton: 3:07
Well, because God ordained it. He knows best how to run it. Great passage is in 1 Timothy 1, verses 8 through 10. And this is where the Bible tells us the purpose of law. Let's look at that. It says we know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that the law is made not for the righteous, but for lawbreakers and rebels. And that's the second thing. Is governments not supposed to pass laws to regulate the good guys? Supposed to pass laws to regulate the bad guys?

Michele Bachmann: 3:31
But that's. All we do is law Law Pass, laws Pass laws. I remember in Congress there was one day when we voted 53 times. I think people would be shocked to hear that. How often this plethora of laws. We stack laws upon laws. But that's interesting when you say that the scripture says that the law is not made for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels.

David Barton: 3:53
And look at the lawbreakers it's made for, as it says lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who killed their fathers and mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine. Now, those are the bad guys. Those are the ones you're supposed to be regulating. The problem we have today is that, as you just mentioned, 53 votes in one day, any given session of Congress. You guys have between 10 and 13,000 bills introduced every session and, by the way, just as with the healthcare bill, you have 2,500 pages in the bill, but then you have 50,000.

Michele Bachmann: 4:29
50,000 pages in the bill and it's a law that will never finish being written. That's right. Because it goes on, and on, and on, that's right. That's one of the beauties of law is certainty. People need to know what's the behavior expected of me, what do I need to do in response to my government? And so when law is malibu, when it can mean different things, then there's no certainty for people.

David Barton: 4:51
People don't know what to do, so there's no way to get them in control at that point, because they can reshape it in anything. As Thomas Jefferson said, it becomes a thing of wax which they can make anything they want, and it gives more and more control. Now let me kind of back up here to say we all know that ignorance to the law is no excuse. You're from Minnesota, I'm from Texas, so I go to Minnesota, I rent a car at the airport, I start driving north and I'm going 85 miles an hour and I get pulled over by Highway Patrol in Minnesota. He says you can't do this when 85's are speed limit in Texas or it's not in Minnesota. Not in Minnesota, that's right, because law is no excuse, that's right. So that tells me I should know the law which every single person in America needs to know, federal law, because you can be arrested for breaking federal law, it doesn't matter what you do so.

Michele Bachmann: 5:34
That's an impossibility, because we're all trying to lead our lives and I can tell you for a fact I've been in the law libraries where it's the federal law, and it is stack after stack, shelf after shelf, page after page. No one could read the federal book it's impossible.

David Barton: 5:50
If you made a commitment. Now you talk about that library. All those books of federal law and all the federal regulations are comfortable. That's right.

Michele Bachmann: 5:56
Oh yeah, that doesn't include regulations. Congress will pass a law and then we'll tell the federal agencies well, now you need to implement that law, so you write all the additional requirements. Well, that's usually where the mess is in all the regulations and that's considered law just as much as the law is.

David Barton: 6:15
You know, I've got a friend. She was a 95 year old lady, her name was Esther Armstrong and she loved prison ministry. I mean, she was everybody's favorite grandma. She was small, she was diminutive, she'd been over white hair and she would go into the county prisons, she'd go into the state prisons and the federal prisons and she would mentor these guys and just talk blunt to them. And she was in one of these prisons one day and what we call a jailhouse attorney somebody that's got such a long sentence. They got their law degree while they're in jail to sue to get out. I've met them, you've met them. One of these jailhouse attorneys came up to her and he put his arm around her and said mama Esther, did you know there's a hundred thousand laws that will put you in jail? And she looked at him and said do you know there's 10 laws that will keep you out of jail?

Michele Bachmann: 6:55
Yeah, baby, we know which law that is. That's right, the moral law, God's moral law.

David Barton: 7:00
And that's why it's so simple in the Bible. You don't have all these regulating behaviors, because if you deal with the inside, the outside is under control. But when you have a secular government, they think that they're God and at that point they want to control every aspect of your life. Only when you have a God-conscious government do you have limited government, because you deal with the inside, not just the outside.

Michele Bachmann: 7:17
You know I had two great godly law professors when I went to law school and they had pointed us to Blackstone, and Blackstone was the great English jurist. And Blackstone had written that all of common law is based upon the Ten Commandments of the Bible, God's moral law, and I know that different commentators have said that all of law can be reduced to the Ten Commandments and how important that is. And you know, so often years ago in our churches or in synagogues, children learned the Ten Commandments. They learned it, they understood it, they memorized it and all throughout their life God would give further illumination to them of what those laws meant. Could you talk a little bit more about the importance and the primacy of moral law here in the United States, all over the world, but what it?

David Barton: 8:06
means here. You know, it's an interesting thing because when you look in the Bible, there are four types of law. There's a ceremonial law, which just explains that ceremony?

Michele Bachmann: 8:14
Is that like my wedding? Is that my baptism?

David Barton: 8:17
Is that? What is that? Like the temple sacrifices and what happened there and by Old Testament, that's Old Testament, old Testament, and it's not necessarily a problem that it's Old Testament, but it's been replaced by the sacrifice of Christ. The way we become righteous now is not by the sacrifices of the temple, it's by what Christ did. So we say that.

Michele Bachmann: 8:32
That's an important point, because under ceremonial law and the Old Testament, people would try to keep the ceremonial law because they saw that that would give them personal righteousness. That's right, right, that's right and that would be their future salvation if they followed the law. What a radical difference that is. It's with Old and New Testament and it didn't work in the Old. And it didn't work because we're sinful, that's right. And so now you have a perfect Savior, a perfect sacrifice line that's right who completely fulfills the ceremonial law of the Old Testament. So that's kind of wrapped up with a bow now. That's right.

David Barton: 9:05
Right. The next law is the moral law, which we just talked about. This is where God tells us what's right and what's wrong. Now, this is an important thing because I had a call recently from a state senator and the state senator said you got to help me. He said I've got a friend here that is a Christian guy and he keeps talking about how that happened to be pro-life and pro-death penalty. How can you do that? Because the Bible says don't kill. And I said, well, he's into the New Testament, misunderstanding that he has that the Bible actually says don't murder, doesn't say don't kill, you don't shed innocent blood. You can shed blood. God ordains civil government to shed blood if it's guilty blood Romans 13.

Michele Bachmann: 9:43
I said but hey, Well, and you just got into a great point, because it's who is allowed to shed blood. There's only one entity that God has created, and that's the civil government that's allowed to wield the sword.

David Barton: 9:57
Civil justice belongs to civil government. The sword of self-defense we can wield. I can shed someone's blood, depending on myself, if I'm in my house it's someone.

Michele Bachmann: 10:03
I sit my house my family, my possessions, and our law tells us that too, they put you up to this.

David Barton: 10:09
And blacks. As you mentioned, that's called the castle doctrine. Your house is your castle, all your possessions, all those who live there. You've got the right to defend your castle. So that's moral law. And I asked the sinner do you believe that arson is a sin? Oh yeah. Do you believe that infanticide, killing a born child, is a sin? Oh yeah, yeah. Do you believe that bestiality, sex with animals, is it? Yeah, show me anywhere in the New Testament. It's a sin. All that you can't even show the New Testament where that abortion is a sin. That's a sin in the old days.

Michele Bachmann: 10:36
They just don't talk about it.

David Barton: 10:37
It's just not brought up and it doesn't need to be, because once God says it's wrong, it stays wrong, that's right.

Michele Bachmann: 10:43
So that's a very important part of the law settled doctrine.

David Barton: 10:46
That's right.

Michele Bachmann: 10:47
And it's done because the Ten Commandments are the Ten Commandments are the Ten Commandments and the Old Testament and the New Testament. This has got some more law. And not just for the Hebrews, that's right. And not just for Gentiles.

David Barton: 10:58
For his behavior.

Michele Bachmann: 10:58
For all people, for all time. In fact. The New Testament talks about how God put the Ten Commandments in our hearts. He put them within so that. That's why we have a conscience. So we wonder why we feel guilty when a little child does something wrong. They know and it's all over our faces. It's because he puts it in our heart, that's right. Unless our conscience is seared. That's right. Unless we continually turn away from what our conscience tells us is wrong. But you've got the Ten Commandments.

David Barton: 11:26
This is the Ten Commandments you don't murder, you don't commit adultery, you don't steal, you don't purge yourself, but there's no penalties attached to this. That's the third law. This is what you do.

Michele Bachmann: 11:36
This is what you're not to do. This is what you're not to do, but it doesn't say what's the penalty if you violate.

David Barton: 11:41
That's right, and that's the third type of law, which is judicial law, judicial law and judicial law comes there.

Michele Bachmann: 11:46
So ceremonial law, moral law, judicial law. Moral law tells us what's right or wrong. Judicial law tells us if you murder someone, maybe it's 40 years, Maybe it's life imprisonment, maybe it's the electric chair.

David Barton: 11:59
And then you said maybe and that's a key point, because judicial law changes over time, moral law never changes Back in the beginning. With adultery you got killed. In the Hebrew tradition, Jesus comes along and he says that's a sin, don't do it anymore. But he didn't stone the lady. Today it's just disapprobation, but it's still a moral wrong. Here we are in Texas, and in Texas we used to hang horse thieves. We don't anymore. It's still a crime to steal a horse, but you don't get hung for it. So judicial law can change over time, but the right-wing law doesn't.

Michele Bachmann: 12:28
Moral law never changes, ever, ever, ever. Judicial law does change, because it may be different in England, maybe different in Australia, maybe different in the US, maybe different in Ukraine.

David Barton: 12:38
That's it. It's still got a right and wrong attached to it, and you never get away from the right and wrong, and those are what the Declaration of Independence called the laws of nature and nature's God, the rights and wrongs that became part of the Seventh Amendment. The Constitution, the common law, that establishes what's right and wrong.

Tim Barton: 12:56
Hi, friends, this is Tim Barton of WallBuilders. This is a time when most Americans don't know much about American history or even heroes of the faith, and I know often times for parents we're trying to find good content for our kids to read. And if you remember back to the Bible, to the book of Hebrews, it has the Faith Hall of Fame where they outlined the leaders of faith that had gone before them. Well, this is something that, as Americans, we really want to go back and outline some of these heroes, not just of American history, but heroes of Christianity and our faith as well. I want to let you know about some biographical sketches we have available on our website and it's called the Courageous Leaders Collection and this collection includes people like Abigail Adams, Abraham Lincoln, Francis Scott Key, George Washington Carver, Susanna Wesley, even the Wright Brothers, and there's a second collection called Heroes of History. In this collection you'll read about people like Benjamin Franklin or Christopher Columbus, Daniel Boone, George Washington, Harriet Tubman, friends the list goes on and on. This is a great collection for your young person to have and read and it's a providential view of American and Christian history. This is available at WallBuilders.com. It's www.WallBuilders.com.

David Barton: 13:59
We're living in a culture now where we're trying to redefine what we think is right and wrong and we're redefining the moral law on a regular basis. You can't do that.

Michele Bachmann: 14:06
In other words, we're turning it upside down, turning upside down.

David Barton: 14:09
And that's when you've got trouble. Instead of God telling you what's right and wrong, we're not having the government, and that's the problem we get into. Instead of government being limited and going after law breakers like the Bible, preach it, preach it.

Michele Bachmann: 14:21
Right, and that's the problem, and that's the beauty of our government was limited it was limited In jurisdiction. We need to talk about that a little bit. But I know that there's another fourth area of law that we really should touch on, and that's social compact, and that's social compact law or all the things that fall under the moral law.

David Barton: 14:40
And social compact law is where the will of the majority wins.

Michele Bachmann: 14:44
These are the biggies that are immutable, that you cannot disagree, you can't disagree, you shouldn't be murdering people.

David Barton: 14:48
And there's more in the Bible. We talked about raciality, and rape is a crime in the Bible, so I tend to commend it's a moral crime. God lays all that the laws of continuity, who you can marry, who you can't marry. You can't marry first cousins and you can't marry sisters. So all of that is part of the moral law and that's all laid out. But then you get into things that say do we want the sidewalks to be four feet wide, five feet wide or six feet wide?

Michele Bachmann: 15:10
Yeah, speed limits, speed limits, what are the load limits on turnip trucks? That's right, all of those kind of that's right. What he has to do with the whole idea of we can kind of do whatever we want, other than I can't take my fist and plant it on your nose. So anything short of that. You should be able to have freedom. So, in other words, when my behavior hurts you, then that's when you have to have a social compact law. That's right. You got to do something, it's to give you an orderly society.

David Barton: 15:38
Orderly society. With your orderly society, you can have social compact laws. If you're not voting on the moral law, that's right. You don't get to vote on whether murder is a crime or not?

Michele Bachmann: 15:47
No, because it's done.

David Barton: 15:48
It's done.

Michele Bachmann: 15:48
There are some things God already said, because there can never be a dispensation to do what's wrong that's right. That's why I think we continue to see in the United States today the ongoing debate about the issue over abortion, because we're talking about something that is fundamental, we're talking about the intentional taking of a human life, and you can't put into law something that God has already called on the whole evil, there's moral laws and mutable you see, here's the difficulty we have as people of faith.

David Barton: 16:19
As we know right now in Pauling, only one out of three Christians believe there's absolute moral truth.

Rick Green: 16:24
That's a problem?

David Barton: 16:25
the laws? That's a problem Because the Bible is full of absolute more truth and I guarantee when you stand before God, he has absolute more truth.

Michele Bachmann: 16:32
Well then, that tells you what believers think about the inerrant and foul word of God. They don't know it. Is this true or isn't it true? Remember, in the Old Testament, after the Scripture had been hidden for so long and it was brought out and it was read before the people, the people wept with joy because there's freedom in the law. When we think of the law, we think of something scary and we don't want to see the police officer pull us over. I mean, who would? Because you know you're going to get a ticket. But the law is for freedom. That's right. It's the freest To free us to do what is right. That's right. For our benefit and for the benefit of our fellow man.

David Barton: 17:09
Well, that's why the Bible calls itself the law of liberty. If you will live by it, you've got freedom. That's why Esther Armstrong says hey, there's 10 laws that will keep you out of jail. These will keep you for that's right. Not 100,000 laws will put you in jail. That's not freedom. That's right. If you want to keep you out of jail, that's freedom.

Michele Bachmann: 17:24
That's right and that's the way it works. Well, the New Testament says now the Lord is that spirit and where the spirit of the Lord is there is liberty, and that's true liberty.

David Barton: 17:33
And that's why going back to the moral law is not restricted. It gives lots of freedoms. It gives lots Because if you will live by the moral law, you have control over yourself. You don't need external control from the outside. There's a great quote from Robert Winthrop that I love. That he says he says it says the minimum will be controlled either by power within them or power without them, either by the Bible or by the bayonet. Self-contained, it says if you'll do the Bible, you don't need the bayonet, you don't need somebody trying to control you outside. And the other thing that we really get goofed up is jurisdiction. What Jesus said in Matthew 22, 21, in Caesar, in the Caesar with Caesar, he said he died with Scott. There's a jurisdiction where the Caesar has control. There's a jurisdiction where God has control. The problem we've always had is secular governments think they're God and they don't recognize jurisdiction.

Michele Bachmann: 18:18
That's so true today.

David Barton: 18:20
And a great example is the issue of marriage, because God created marriage. God created marriage, not government. In Matthew 19,. Disciples were asked about marriage. He says guys, don't you remember? At the beginning he said man, woman, whatever God has joined together. So Jesus took them back to the original and the deal is that was God's jurisdiction. That was before civil government ever existed. Civil government came in Genesis 9.

Michele Bachmann: 18:45
Because if you look at sociology and human interaction, it's first man-woman, then from man-woman descends children and then extended family.

David Barton: 18:55
You don't need civil government until you have a society and you've got so many families and then at that point and that's what God did with Noah we've got a world full of people. Now let's establish how we do horizontal stuff. It is the rule of law.

Michele Bachmann: 19:08
And that's what's so brilliant about our form of government and God's form of government that we are equal for the law and that no we recognize individuals. That's right. Because God says he's not a respecter of persons, he's not partial.

David Barton: 19:22
That's right.

Michele Bachmann: 19:22
So why should we, why should government be partial or respecter of person? It shouldn't. That's what I love about the Declaration of Independence is because a creator, god, created us equal. That's right. That is revolutionary. Even today, across the world, with world governments, it is still a revolutionary concept. It shows the worth of you. It shows that when God made you, when God made me, when God made the viewers, we are so valuable to him that he lifted each one of us up before him, but yet equal.

David Barton: 19:55
You see, this is where secular governments get it wrong. When we had the American Revolution and the French Revolution. The American Revolution, we said all men are created equal, they're endowed by the Creator. And the French Revolution, their motto was liberty, equality and fraternity. So they were into groups, whatever fraternity, whatever group, you thought. And so we did it. We have hate crime laws. That's where we are. That's it. We'll protect these kids. I remember one of your cohorts in Congress when they voted on the hate crime law to protect lesbians and homosexuals. One of your guys in Congress said well, let's also protect seniors and veterans. They said no, no, no. Those are the groups we're trying to protect.

Michele Bachmann: 20:30
I remember that, I remember that.

David Barton: 20:32
That's right. No, no, we're protecting this group, we're not protecting it. We'll see. Under the American system, when you recognize God as the Creator, then every individual has the right to equal protection, and you recognize groups.

Michele Bachmann: 20:44
That distinction is so important between the United States system and the French system is this it's tyranny, because what you do is put government in charge, because it's political correctness that rules the day. So when you're part of a favored group, then you get special benefits that nobody else gets. That's the very form of tyranny, because when governments supposedly give something which government has nothing to give, they have to take it away from other people. So when they give it to that certain group, that means by definition they're taking it away from you. That's why we had some Supreme Court cases recently that dealt with this issue. You can't take away my right of religious conscience, because the First Amendment has protected our right to believe.

David Barton: 21:27
Oh, thank God, it came from government.

Michele Bachmann: 21:28
It came from government. It came from government. It came from government.

David Barton: 21:31
See, this is where the marriage issue is so important. On jurisdictions, 1913. The question before the court was hey, you religious people have your religious marriages, we secular people, let us have a secular marriage. Let us define it through government. Sounds like France. Well, it sounds like America too. We want a definition of government that includes us. You religious guys haven't included us in a homosexual marriage. So the issue before the court was can you have a religious marriage and a civil marriage? In other words, can government create and regulate marriage? Here's what the court said. It says marriage. This is the court. Supreme Court in 1913, a case called Grecipe v Reeves, supreme Court of Texas, said Marriage was not originated by human law. When God created Eve, she was a wife to Adam. They then and there occupied the status of husband to wife and wife to husband. The truth is that civil government has grown out of marriage, which is what you just said, which created homes and population, society, from which government became necessary. Grab this it would be sacrilegious to apply the designation, quote a civil contract to such a marriage. It is that and more, a status ordained by God. So you've got government saying we can't touch marriage God defined. That's not our jurisdiction.

Michele Bachmann: 22:37
We have to stay in our trick and it lowers the value of it. Honestly, when you put government in, it lowers it. It can become anything at that point, absolutely so there's some three dogs and a horse and two men, and it can be anything and we're going to get into more of that later but we've got some really important things that we have to remember to do. We've talked about really important topics. One thing I think, especially for every parent, but for every individual, is to make sure that each one of us learn the 10 commandments, not just read them and memorize them and I know in our house we have them hanging on the wall. We bought the biggest copy we could get so that it would be before our face every day, so that before the kids left the house, we left the house. This was the uppermost on our mind. I'd recommend everyone do.

David Barton: 23:19
that, I think, goes with that. We're talking about how only one out of every three Christians believes in absolute truth. Some years ago they had the Promise Keepers Rally in Washington DC and I was there. A camera crew went around and asked 500 men, can you name the 10 commandments? Only one out of 500 men can name the 10 commandments.

Michele Bachmann: 23:37
And this is at Promise Keepers, at Promise Keepers. That's amazing.

David Barton: 23:40
These are committed Christian men? Only one out of five. So what you're saying about memorizing the 10 commandments?

Michele Bachmann: 23:46
It's really important because you know what? I sat down when I was thinking about what we were going to talk about. I sat down and made myself write them out.

David Barton: 23:53
Visually.

Michele Bachmann: 23:54
Because it's easier for me to write it out than say it, and just that exercise of going through it, and I have it in my kitchen, I have it in my house, so that the kids could see it every day. I just want to encourage people do that, especially for your children. You'll be amazed what they take away. And the second thing is another scripture and that's to know the purpose of law. We've been talking about that on this show and that's from 1 Timothy 1, 8 through 10. Memorize it. Memorize it. Because really, what is the purpose of government? What is the purpose of law?

David Barton: 24:23
It's to it's a that tells you it. It Regulate the bad guys, not the good guys. That's right, and the purpose of government is to punish evil doers and reward those too well, and then finally and that's the other part that doesn't get done is we don't reward the righteous. We punish the bad guys, but we also punish the good guys.

Michele Bachmann: 24:37
And we're going to talk more about that Because our government has been busy doing just the opposite.

David Barton: 24:43
We're cursing the opposite.

Michele Bachmann: 24:44
That's right, Gee why do we have a problem? Huh, so the other one is to learn to distinguish the four types of law. And ceremonial law has been completed. That's the Old Testament. Temple worship Jesus of Phil. That law, the moral law which we just talked about, hang copy up in your kitchen, have one at work, have one in your wallet and read the Bible, looking for rights and wrongs.

David Barton: 25:03
I mean because gossip is also a moral wrong, that's right and we got you know tell buried and he the separates for is, and I mean all of that. Read the Bible looking for rights and wrongs and those things. Well, that doesn't apply today. Yes, it does apply.

Michele Bachmann: 25:16
It's amazing how the basics that you're trying to tell your kids are all contained right then and there. And then the next one is judicial law and really all that is the punishments for violating moral law, and that can change through.

David Barton: 25:28
As long as you don't change the moral law, you can change the punishment you can change the punishments, but don't say, oh, you know, homosexuality is no longer a violation of the moral law, it is to God.

Michele Bachmann: 25:38
That's right and so you can change the law and that's not social compact law. That's right, Because social compact laws what's the speed limit, Load limits on turn of trends? That's right, Things like that. So those are the things that we do have variation and we can't do, but I think what's so important another topic that we need to discuss and stretch out another time is the issue of jurisdiction and separating the powers of government. So it's important to know the basics. You've got ceremonial law, moral law, judicial law and social compact. Understand what they are and what they aren't. Understand and memorize what the basis of law is and what moral law is, and we'll all be better off.

David Barton: 26:15
That'll defend our foundations of freedom, and that's what we want to do is preserve those foundations.

Michele Bachmann: 26:19
This is a great start today, thank you.

Rick Green: 26:22
We're out of time for today, folks. You've been listening to Foundations of Freedom with David Barton. Today's episode was with Michele Bachmann. We're going to finish that up tomorrow. Thanks so much for listening. You've been listening to WallBuilders.