Historic Quote: 0:11

Calvin Coolidge said, the more I study the Constitution, the more I realized that no other document device by the hand of man has brought so much progress and happiness to humanity, to live under the American Constitution is the greatest political privilege that was ever accorded to the human race.

Rick Green: 0:38

Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture, it's WallBuilders, we're taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical and constitutional perspective. And you can be a part of that by going to WallBuilders.com today, making a one time or monthly contribution, or just getting you some good materials get you some truth that you can absorb that you can learn. And that then you can then defend it, you got to know the truth to defend the truth. So if you go to WallBuilders.com, today, you can get a lot of those great materials that are built out of our library at WallBuilders, the largest private collection of founding fathers documents in the world. We go to the original sources, folks, we bring you the truth. I'm Rick Green, by the way, America's constitution coach and a former Texas legislator, it's my great honor to be here with David and Tim Barton. I love serving with these guys. David's of course, America's premier historian and our founder at WallBuilders. Tim Burton's national speaker and pastor and president of WallBuilders. And by the way, both these guys just knocked it out of the park last week at our Patriot Academy leadership Congress at the Texas capitol, incredible. It was great, man, we got them back to back. So David and Tim, thank you for doing that. What a pleasure, what a privilege to work with you. And the kids, of course, loved it, the students 16 to 25 that learn from you, the military veterans, the Constitution coaches, folks that came in from all over the nation. And we just had a great week, lots of great speakers. Be encouraged, folks, there's a lot of good things happening out there. I want to invite you to be a part of one of those good things September 17 is of course Constitution Day, I hope you're thinking about that about a month ahead of time here, thinking about what you can do to restore America's constitutional republic. One of those things, is to go to your local school district and offer a constitution class. It's federal law that every school that receives any federal money whatsoever, every public school, even private schools that receive federal money are supposed to do something on Constitution Day. It actually falls on a Sunday this year. So on either the Friday before the Monday after, you can go in and teach our 45 minute constitution class. To do that you sign up for free as a constitution coach at ConstitutionCoach.com and then in your coach dashboard, you'll have the PowerPoint slides and everything you need to teach the class. And we'll coach you along on that if you need any help doing it, that's what we do at constitution coach. So check that out, become a part of the solution. And then consider setting aside your September 17, this year to join us on Constitution Day, we're going to have the comedy constitutional revival taking place in Fredericksburg, Texas, right down the road from the Patriot Academy campus. And you can also come in and do a constitutional defense course right before that big celebration, the Wednesday through Saturday before or the Monday through Thursday after. In other words, just plan on September 17 with us in Fredericksburg, Texas, and then either come in early and do your constitutional defense course out at the Patriot Academy campus or stay over and do it right after that. All right, David and Tim, let's dive into those questions. First one's coming from Nebraska. Thank you, Marolyn for sending this in. She said I'm hoping to get some help from you wise guys. Now I don't know if she's referring to you guys as New Yorkers wise guys, but or if she means wise-guys, but the wise guys, David and Tim Barton, that's your new nickname from now on. I'm feeling conflicted about the issue of speaking up. And on the other hand, when it's foolish to take a stand. What keeps turning over in my mind is your frequent quote of John Quincy Adams duty is ours, results are God's. Rick also talks about the foolishness of refusing to wear a mask and missing a flight when he was traveling. I truly applaud his courage and then wonder how to decide when an action or word is foolish. Or when I'm throwing my pearls before swine. We have a family member who lives overseas and I have to receive much of her mail. Occasionally, we will get a mailing from Planned Parenthood which breaks our hearts and also makes us upset. I'm trying to figure out how best to handle this and whether I'm wasting my breath, or I need to plant a seed and hope to still maintain our relationship. She claims to be a Christian but also votes Democrat and contributes to Democrat candidates. Thank you so much for what you do. I listen to your program pretty much every day. And I've done so for many years, and I've also studied a lot of the DVDs, and support WallBuilders, the wealth of information we have learned is phenomenal. I've used this information and I've learned to frequently post important historical information on Facebook that is new to many people. I'm starting to sound like a history expert and that's absolutely not my forte. However, it's just a sad reality of how little true history we're being taught. And I especially enjoy pointing out that information, the information that I've gleaned from an organization who owns the largest private original historical documents in America. Thanks in advance for any help you can give me. Okay, David, Tim, listen guys, by the way, I love this calling you guys wiseguys even though she meant that of all of us, but I'm just going to make it you, you guys, y'all are the wise guys. And I will say big, big difference between, you know maybe in my case that day being a little bit ornery about my trump 2020 mask and wearing it on the side of my ear instead of on my face when I was trying to make a phone call. But that's another story. Here you're talking about speaking up about someone supporting Planned Parenthood and they're in your family and open lines of communication are good, so I'm just going to jump in there before you guys take this over and say, I think you should speak up. But do it in a way that keeps the conversation going. What do you guys think?

David Barton: 5:38

Yeah, I think that's the right tone to start with. And, you know, if you speak up, and they already have their mind made up, there's likely to be some pushback, and some, I disagree with that, and whatever. But always remember that when emotions gets stirred up, that's not necessarily the final landing place, that's often a starting place. It often requires people getting their emotions stirred before they start thinking about things. Already, they're in an echo chamber, Planned Parenthood is part of their echo chamber. And the fact they're getting mail and are part of that, that means that they receive and they believe what they hear. And so if you start challenging that or confronting that, even in the gentlest, kindest, simplest ways, your initial reaction is probably going to be negative. And don't misinterpret that and think, well, they reject me, I can't have a conversation anymore. Generally, you have to stir someone's emotions before they start thinking about something. And it generally takes them a while of thinking before they start changing something. And so we're in such a fragile culture today that if someone rejects us, we just shut up, clam up and don't say anything else. And we need to keep persevering and pushing in. And I think it's something like this, it would be really easy to bring up just stats, don't say, hey, I want to talk to you about the Planned Parenthood mailer you got, say, man, I saw this fascinating thing the other day that women who have abortions have a 626% higher chance of having breast cancer. Have you ever seen anything like that? Do you know anything about that? There's so many stats that go with abortion, that you can just throw them out there as if you just heard a little factoid, or read a meme somewhere, or whatever, and ask them about it. And so asking questions is a great way to start and don't necessarily pin them in and confront them on what they're doing, because then they're going to get defensive, you can just, quite frankly, be offensive minded and very gentle, and very easygoing, and just bring up things you've heard the same way you would, did you know we had an oak tree going in the front yard? Or, you know, whatever else is just a random conversation. So I think that's a starting place. And Rick, the tone, you suggested exactly the right way to start. But a lot of times just finding information outside their echo chamber and just kind of injecting it in and not your opinion, necessarily, your opinion will come but your opinion needs to be based on facts. And so just start injecting facts into it that maybe they don't know. And don't do it as a teacher do it as I'm really curious about this. Have you heard this before? You know, do it as someone who wants to learn together, or I want your input or opinion on this, that's a lot less aggressive way to go.

Tim Barton: 8:15

And I would point out too, one of the things we talk to even young people about but it's true in the life of Jesus, if you look at how Jesus interacted with people, there were times when he tried to win the point and the conversation and there were times he tried to win the person. And there is a difference. There's a time when you are trying to win the person. And there's times when you want to make sure that no one in the crowd is confused. And you'll see Jesus at times confront the Pharisees, and he will rebuke the Pharisees for their faulty understanding, their bad position. And I think one of the distinctions we see in scripture that I think is true for us, and it should be applied in our own life, the Bible tells us that God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. And what you see is when Jesus generally wins the argument, when he's harder in a situation, he's dealing with a proud person, and a proud person that's condemning those around them. And Jesus says, essentially, you don't understand this the way you think you do, right? Like there's more to this story and you've misunderstood, you're Miss applying this and I say this because if you're talking about someone who's a Christian, or at least someone who professes Christianity, they have clearly misunderstood some of the basic teachings of the Bible, if they are pro abortion while they are a Christian. In addition to that, as Dad, you were mentioning, kind of being strategic in the way you engage this conversation. Jesus actually had a long teaching, where his conclusion of the teaching was how sad it is the children of the world are more shrewd than the children of light, that the children of the world, oftentimes are more critical thinkers are more strategic thinkers in the way they solve problems. And as you engage in this conversation, I would highly recommend that you are strategic and, Dad, as you mentioned, that you can, in being strategic, you can bring up some points and ideas and facts that are not directly confrontational, they're not challenging. So you don't put the person on the defensive, but it's more of a conversation to help lead someone to what the truth is. And one of the things that I would always highlight or recommend, if you're talking to someone who's a Christian, one of the questions that I always want to know is how do you determine right and wrong? Because if you're saying you're a Christian, but you're clearly holding positions that are not biblical, then how do you determine what's right and wrong? Because the Bible is very clear in this issue and you're saying you don't think that the Bible is correct that you don't think maybe God is the author and Giver of Life, and that it's not our job to speak up for the defenseless to stand up for those who are are being led to death, if that's not our job as a Christian, then how do you determine what's right and wrong. And this is where it's a very slippery slope for those who profess Christianity who don't identify the Bible as the pinnacle, the foundation of objective truth, objective morality in their life, because there's only three options for truth. It's either subjective up to the individual, it's collective up to society, or there's an objective standard beyond humans, that we point to like the Bible, something beyond us, that's not subject to our whims to our personal perspective to our opinions. And if they choose anything other than objective perspective, it's very easy to show that a subjective perspective, morality or truth, that's never going to work, a collective perspective, it's never going to work. The only reality that we actually can build on is an objective perspective, which is found in the Word of God, something that doesn't change. And so even part of the conversation I would lead them to, is maybe how do we determine right and wrong? Again, if they say anything other than the Bible, then you have a really good intro to talk with them about that maybe the faults or fallacies and one of the things strategically too that we often counsel and caution people on is don't try to present too much truth until you have helped the other person understand that their position is not defensible. Because people are not often open to a new perspective until they realize that there are flaws and gaps in their own perspective. But once they realize that their perspective, their opinions are not sustainable, they're not obtainable, then they might be open to hearing the input from something else. So I would often just ask questions, not confrontationally, but let that person teach you, like helped me understand this. I'm just trying to think this through what do you think? And if that person gets offended, you can say, hey, I'm sorry, I was just... I was trying to understand more where you were coming from, right? I wasn't trying to be rude, I wasn't trying to, you know, to be harsh and critical of you, I just wanted to understand this better. But and you asking questions, to understand their perspective, it can help present the fallacies, the logical fallacies, the errors of their position, which then hopefully, you can guide them and insert truth along the way,

David Barton: 12:46

One thing I would add also on this is that as you do this, just remember that this is not a one size fits all kind of solution, it's not going to be the same thing for everybody. And it's not even going to be the same thing for the same person all the time. There are different approaches, you need to alter that. I was just thinking even going back over Jesus and how he responded. When he was talking to the woman at the well, he did not jump her, did not confront her, he just asked her some questions that were kind of penetrating, made her think, and it just turned her around, because she had not been in that position of thinking and, man, all of a sudden, he's the smart guy in the room. But then there's other times where he's hanging with one of his friends, Peter, who's one of the close three disciples that he took into a lot of places, he didn't take the other disciples. And there's times he just turned to Peter and called him Satan to his face and said, Satan Get behind me, that is a really bad idea. I mean, it's just open confrontation, open rebuke. And then when he is facing the civic leaders at the time of his crucifixion, he didn't say anything to them. That was when you don't cast your pearls before swine, they've got their mind made up, they've been trying for three and a half years to kill him, there's no conversation, we're going to have going to change anything. And anything he says is going to be rejected. So even looking at Jesus, look at all the different tactics he used, depending on the heart of the people he was talking to, where they were at the time how things were going. And so you know, we all kind of have things that we prefer and we're more comfortable with. But man, you can learn from Jesus. There's a lot of different ways, different tactics, different approaches, and they're all worthy at the right points in time and so I don't think you have to look at this as casting your pearls before swine just because they hold a different opinion until you have really worked and used a variety of techniques to try to have a conversation, to get information to them they might not have considered. If every single thing you do is rejected and rejected vehemently, and they won't even have a conversation. Then maybe you're casting your pearls before swine, but I think you've got a long way to go before you get

Tim Barton: 14:52

And just to reiterate that, Dad, I was there. waiting to insert this and then you actually absolutely wrapped up what I was thinking at the end, I mean, when Jesus didn't address the Pharisees as he's on trial, and and he doesn't say anything at this point it's because those people have already rejected any notions of truth, nothing he says they're going to receive. But he was very open. In fact, even when Judas betrays him, and they come to arrest them, he says, I was with you every day in the marketplace, right? Why are you coming here this moment, as if I'm trying to escape you guys. I was with you every day. Jesus did not change who he was, he invested in relationship, he was very clear in his presentation in his position for years, and only at the end, right, before they're crucifying him when he's on trial. That's a time he's like, alright, now I'd be wasting my time to say anything. And he recognized that he's also fulfilling what God had literally purposed him to do, he's doing the will of God by laying his life down and as a ransom for many. But with that being said, it is only when someone openly acknowledges the rejection of truth or openly despises truth, that I think you see Jesus responding differently, and not engaging on some level. And again, different strategies, different ways to engage in relationship conversation based on who the person is, where they're coming from. But certainly, just because someone has a different opinion, doesn't mean we don't want to engage, and that's not what the question... not to imply that's what this question was about at all. It really was asking some wisdom on strategically, how do we do it? When do we know it's gone too far? When do we, you know, have a line in the sand that, okay, at this point, we're just casting pearls before swine, some of that I think there's some discussions some Holy Spirit leading involved, but certainly, we want to be strategic and try to engage as much as possible to help bring people to truth as much as we can.

Rick Green: 16:38

I was thinking exactly what you just said, Tim. It really is, it's a discernment thing. It's really asking the Lord to give you guidance and give you little signs you can see and even it's a lot easier sometimes face to face, because you can see the body language and just asking for God to give you discernment on how far to push how far to go. Marolyn, fantastic question. And it's not just a great question for your particular situation, but you know, if the nation is going to, you know, come back together, we've got to have civil discourse. So looking for those opportunities to win people over like this relative of yours and to be a positive influence on this truth is just so essential for every single one of us as citizens quick break, folks, we'll be right back with more of your questions on this foundations of freedom Thursday here on WallBuilders. Have you noticed the vacuum of leadership in America? We’re looking around for leaders of principle to step up and too often, no one is there. God is raising up a generation of young leaders with a passion for impacting the world around them. They’re crying out for the mentorship and leadership training they need. Patriot Academy was created to meet that need. Patriot Academy graduates now serve in state capitals around America in the halls of Congress, in business, in the film industry, in the pulpit and every area of the culture. They’re leading effectively and impacting the world around them. Patriot Academy is now expanding across the nation and now’s your chance to experience this life changing week that trains champions to change the world. Visit patriotacademy.com for dates and locations. Our core program is still for young leaders 16 to 25 years old, but we also now have a citizen track for adults, so visit the website today to learn more. Help us fill the void of leadership in America. Join us in training champions to change the world at PatriotAcademy.com . Welcome back to WallBuilders. Thanks for staying with us on this foundations of freedom Thursday. We've got another question this one coming from... and I don't know do you say it guys? Albany, New York or Al-bany?

David Barton: 18:37

Al-bany, man, it's A-L-L.

Rick Green: 18:39

Al-bany! All right! Albany, New York. Mark, thanks for sending this in. He says I'm a frequent listener of your show, and so thankful for all that you do. Even after five years, I'm still learning so much. I just recently visited Philadelphia and Pennsylvania Statehouse room where the declaration and Constitution were signed. And I began thinking, what would happen if Rhode Island never ratified the Constitution? I know they were in the loop on the purpose of the convention. And I'm sure they received a copy that was sent out on September 19. I see delegates that left or refused to sign. But their states still had other delegates there. Rhode Island is the only state to my knowledge that didn't have anyone there. I know Rhode Island eventually ratified on May 29, 1790. But what if they didn't? What would come of Rhode Island as always, thank you for your time. Great question, Mark. Thanks for sending that in. And I guess when he says September 19, I know Constitution Day is September 17. I think that's when they finished but I guess maybe they sent it out... maybe they were talking about that at the Statehouse when he was there. But anyways, and that's coming up, by the way, folks, so great timing for Mark's question. September 17. Just a month away. Be sure you celebrate Constitution Day this year. And tell your friends and family about it. We're going to have a big party down in Fredericksburg with Kirk Cameron and Brad Stine and do Comedy, Constitution and Revival all at once all on Constitution Day and you can stay over for a handgun defense class if you like. David, Tim, what do you think, man? What if Rhode Island had never ratified? What would have become a Rhode Island?

David Barton: 20:03

Well, let me back up before we get to that question is say, there were several states who really didn't participate much. North Carolina did not ratify until after the Constitution was in place. North Carolina and Rhode Island both got own after it was done and finished and operating. So that's a second state. And then if you look at New York, the only person from New York who attended the convention was Alexander Hamilton. I mean, you got one guy, essentially. And he was not there for a whole bunch of the meetings. Now, he was already committed to the Constitution, so it's not like him not being there was a sign of displeasure. But he was not a very faithful attendee at the convention. And he's the New York delegate, essentially. So there were several. And then when it came time for ratification, it just almost did not pass in Massachusetts and Virginia, both of those states nearly did not ratify. So it was not like that Rhode Island was really unique and held out. Now, Rhode Island was a little more, I don't know how we say it, a little more independent, they were a little more scared of central power than everybody else. I mean, Virginia didn't like central power. But they did have a centralized Anglican church. But in Rhode Island, there was nothing like that that they had in their experience. And so they absolutely did not want anything centralized. And they were the ones that were the probably the most leery about all of it. But after seeing what happened with all the ratification debates, and where you're having these extended debates in all the state, because they scheduled the states in a series where they would have ratification in one state, it would be finished, and they would have another state so that they all had a scheduled time, it wasn't a random kind of thing. They were all scheduled. And so Rhode Island can sit back and look at all the debates and listen [to] all the debates and read all the things the newspapers have said and read all the reports and read all the records. And they say, okay, maybe this is not as bad as we feared it was going to be. Maybe there are some good safeguards here, like what the anti-federalists are doing, they like this bill of rights, that's a really good safeguard. And so by the time Rhode Island gets around to it, they ratify after it's in place like North Carolina did. But they were a lot more comfortable having seen all the debates and heard all the discussions and watched everything that was going on. But had they not ratified, they simply would just not have been part of the United States per se, they would have been their own separate kind of country, separate parts, kind of like not everybody in Europe is part of the European Union. There's states there and nations there that are not and they're just not part of the European Union, but they're still part of Europe. So it kind of would have been like that. But I think they would not have stayed in that condition long. Because too many of the people they loved and trusted too many people they fought with in the war for independence, too many of the people that they were close to had come to that conclusion. I just think that they were a lot more anti Federalist than a lot of the other states were, and a lot more leery of any kind of centralized power, especially if that centralized power started looking like it was going to be Europe. And I think by the time it went into effect, they saw that that was not it at all. The sentiment for a Bill of Rights and everything else, I think kind of relaxed them a little bit. But that's... it's a great question. And you know, it's all a hypothetical answer as to what would happened. But from a legal standpoint, you would have had 11 states in the United States, that would have been the United States and probably at some point, Rhode Island would have said, okay, we're comfortable with that we'll join you too, and North Carolina would have done the same thing as they did after the Constitution was in place. So I think they quickly would have become part of the United States. I don't see any writings, that indicates that they had a desire not to be part of it. So I think they would have eventually got there. But it's a great question.

Tim Barton: 23:53

Well, and to your point Dad, the fact that there were states that joined after the United States was already functioning, already as a nation and not like you have new territories joining Northwest Ordinance, the actual original colonies who were slow to ratify, because they weren't sure what this was going to do and how it was going to work. But then when you have some of those states joining after it's already been ratified, and at this point, I mean, President Washington is there and they're like, okay, well go ahead and join the team. It does stand to reason, especially a state like Rhode Island that they would have recognized it's much more advantageous for them to join and be part of the Union, than whatever they feared might happen from the Constitution or federal government, based on what many states thought were the dangers of the federal government and the Constitution at that point, especially once you get the Bill of Rights in place. And once they begin to limit, at least at that time, we definitely are not where it was then but at that time limit the power to the federal government, a lot of the fears and concerns that kept states from getting involved in the first place are being alleviated. And so it would make way more sense that especially after there's a bill of rights, that a lot of their concerns would have been alleviated, at least to that point.

David Barton: 25:05

And you know, the other thing is you look at what happened leading up to the Constitutional Convention, when we were all fighting the war for independence, all fighting the tyranny of Great Britain, man, Rhode Island was in there just like every other state, and they were really aggressive, their leader, Governor Stephen Hopkins, I mean, he was a real patriot, signed the Declaration, and you look at how they fought for that liberty and freedom. You take the Rhode Island first, a great black regiment that was just phenomenal what they did, Rhode Island, they joined arms with every other colony to fight the British. And so they had a... already had a strong relationship with all the other colonies. They trusted them. They knew each other, they had common fights, it was not like they've just walked up to the table, are not aware who's sitting at the table. They know everybody there. So it's kind of like, again, they were a little more anti central government. But every indication was that they would have joined at some point, especially the way they joined with all the other states and fighting the British throughout the revolution. And the leadership role they took. It was pretty likely they were going to get there at some point in time.

Rick Green: 26:11

Well, and it's also a good reminder that you know, you're never going to have unanimous on anything, every constitutional amendment, the Constitution originally there was a lot of debate and the nation never said let's all do it. So it takes battles to win these things. Alright folks, thanks so much for listening. Send your questions in to radio@WallBuilders.com That's radio@WallBuilders.com . We appreciate you listening on this foundations of freedom Thursday here on WallBuilders.