Rick Green: 0:11

You found the intersection of faith and the culture. It's WallBuilders, where we take on the hot topics of the day, always from a biblical, historical and constitutional perspective. I'm Rick Green, America's constitution coach here with David and Tim Barton Tim's a national speaker and pastor and president of WallBuilders. David, of course, America's premier historian and our founder here at WallBuilders. You can find out more about all three of us at our website, WallBuilders.com. That's also the place you can make that contribution, one time or monthly, however, it works for you. But it helps amplify the voice of truth and allow us to train more pastors, legislators, students, you name it, we need your help, though, folks. It takes fuel in the tank so you can make your contribution today, lives, fortunes, and sacred honor. We're all giving of our time, our money, and our reputation, everything in order to save this country and restore liberty. David and Tim, we've got... pastor, Gus Booth that we had on a few months ago, going to be back with us today talking about taking a stand as a Christian, as a pastor. And I think it'd be an encouraging program, despite what we're seeing. And not only Minnesota, but really this whole thing about not allowing conversion therapy, what they call conversion therapy, you know, is... that's happening all over the country, there's people trying to do this. But I think in the long run, if folks stay with us through this whole program, they're gonna be encouraged.

David Barton: 1:15

Well, you know, conversion therapy, I think, has been a phrase that's abused and misused. But let me go back to the origins of it. When it first started coming out was because people who maybe were straight sexually, were having inclinations to perhaps homosexual activity, and they didn't want to have homosexual activity. And so they would have counselors who would talk to them about their... the fact they did not desire... they had these desires, but they didn't want to do it. And so they had an internal conflict. And so these often Christian counselors would say, hey, here's how you can overcome those desires you don't want to deal with, and I don't know how that came to be known as conversion therapy. Because you're taking a client, and you're helping counsel them on something they don't want to do, you're helping equip them to be able to do what they want, which is not the wrong thing. And somehow that became...

Rick Green: 2:01

Well, and David, to put that in context, brother, I mean, think... What if you went to a counselor to say, you know what, I don't want to have sexual desires for anybody, but my wife, and I need some counseling here to help deal with this stuff. It's a natural inclination and sinful nature. And I need some help here on how to deal with that. It's the same

David Barton: 2:17

And I'm going to make it even more absurd. I thing. know, I shouldn't rob a bank, but I'm having a desire to rob a bank, I'm going to go talk to a counselor, see if they can talk me out of robbing the bank. And somehow that's conversion therapy? If they help strengthen me in what I'm wanting to do? And so what happened is in Minnesota, they passed a law banning conversion therapy. This had been going on 7, 8, 9 years and a lot of states, Colorado, others, and they were fining Christian counselors who would do it, they were banning Christian counselors from giving Christian counsel to people who might not want to participate in an activity. And so what happened when they did this in Minnesota, I got a call from Pastor Gus Booth, great guy up there. Gus Booth is just more biblical than anything else, political or whatever. And he got in and he said, they have banned conversion therapy, as they call it. If you... if anyone takes money for counseling. He said, I'm going up with an ad on my website right now that anyone that wants conversion therapy, I'll do it for $1. So he doesn't want the money. But he wants to challenge that law. How bad that law is, that you can't pay anyone to counsel you biblically. And this is just his attitude, I'm going to do the biblical thing. And if I get thrown in jail for doing it, I'm going to do it. And so this is something that is really kind of exercised him in the sense of he knows it's wrong. He wants to be a leader in fighting what's wrong. And I don't know why they call it conversion therapy. It's the craziest thing ever, is just simply counseling people with biblical counsel.

Rick Green: 3:38

Well, Pastor Gus Booth will be with us when we return. Stay with us, you're listening to WallBuilders.

Tim Barton: 3:53

This is Tim Barton from WallBuilders with another moment from American history. America is a special and unique nation. The average length for a Constitution in other countries is only 17 years. But we’ve had ours for over two centuries. And our 4% of the world’s population produces 24% of the world’s gross domestic product. And every year, we produce more inventions and technology than the other 96% of the world combined. In 1831, Alexis de Tocqueville of France came to America, travelled the country, and in his famous book,“Democracy in America” reported,“The position of the Americans is therefore quite exceptional, and it may be believed that no democratic people will ever be placed in a similar one. This is the origin of the phrase‘American Exceptionalism’ and affirms that America is unique because of the distinctive ideas on which we had been based, including inalienable rights, individualism, limited government, and the importance of religion and morality.” For more information about American Exceptionalism, go to WallBuilders.com .

Rick Green: 4:50

Welcome back. Thanks for staying with us here on WallBuilders. Great to have pastor Gus Booth back with us from Minnesota. Gus, how you doing, brother? Thanks for coming on.

Gus Booth: 4:57

Hey, I'm doing good. It's 77 degrees, up here in northern Minnesota, and that is not a number that happens very often. So I'm loving it.

Rick Green: 5:05

I thought you were just rubbing it in because it's 100 degrees where I am in Texas.

Gus Booth: 5:09

I would rather have 100 degrees than 77 Because I'm strange that way, but whatever. It is what it is.

Rick Green: 5:16

I'm actually with you, man. Well, I couldn't shovel snow, as much as you guys have to do up there. So your... I hope you enjoy....

Gus Booth: 5:24

That's why I work out is so I can keep shoveling snow all winter long.

Rick Green: 5:29

Well, hey man, despite the good weather, craziness going on in the Minnesota House, with this banning of what they call conversion therapy, I've never understood this terminology, you know, you can convert supposedly, a kid from their actual biological sex and convince them to buy into a mental illness. But if you actually have, you know, any kind of quote, unquote, therapy or counseling with them, to explain their biological sex to them, and help them understand that, that's the conversion therapy. Anyway, I'm confused by all the terminology, but give us the boots on the ground. You know, what does this actually mean, in Minnesota?

Gus Booth: 6:03

It means therapists cannot charge to help people who want to leave same sex attraction or gender dysphoria, they can't charge for it. They can still do it as long as they don't charge for it. And there's some ambiguity on whether or not that applies to pastors or not. But either way, we all know that they take, you know, something away from us here. And then they just keep going until somebody happens to just be like, hey, that's not cool. And so that's what we're trying to do. Very... not very well, to be frank, nobody seems to be interested in it.

Rick Green: 6:45

You know, I've noticed this, though, this whole effort to ban conversion therapy, quote, unquote, all over the country. I mean, this is something they're trying to do in virtually every state. How do you counter that, the even just the argument itself, that you shouldn't be allowed to counsel someone on this issue?

Gus Booth: 7:06

Well, we, as Bible believers, have to point to the scriptures, we just have to, like, and I'm fond of saying, Jesus is my conversion therapist, you know, like, he converted me from a lifestyle of sin. And now my government is telling me that I can't tell people about his converting them in the area of same sex attraction or gender dysphoria. And I think that just is an attack against the Scriptures. And, I get that. I feel like the world is definitely going to attack the scriptures. But what I don't get is so many believers are not standing up for the word, they're just allowing this attack to go forward, and not doing really anything outside of complaining to each other, that it's going on. They're not pushing back. And, so we, as a church are trying to push back, it's why we set up a new website, you know,

Rick Green: 8:02

This is so good. I think that's the right... That's like, I haven't thought about doing it that way, that's a really good way to respond to this, that actually the gospel is conversion therapy, it's the... It's not just therapy, it's actual conversion. That's so good. And so then actually if, I mean, if I'm understanding the way you're framing that, I think it... you're able to say, I mean, you're actually preventing me to talk about my religion to live out my first amendment rights or freedom of religion, of freedom of speech, and you're preventing me from being able to counsel others on

Gus Booth: 8:34

Yeah, it is a clear attack on religious liberty in that... the United States. But what I think has happened in the body Ah, well, I don't normally disagree with you Gus, but I of Christ is we're... we've got bigger fish, to fry, so to speak. And what I mean by that is, well, my marriage isn't really good, I need to be a better husband, I can't really get sidetracked into, you know, religious liberty issues, or my kid's a protocol, or, you know, I'm living paycheck to paycheck, I need to get a second job, you know, all these things that are good things keep us from fighting against the very thing that the devil is attacking in our nation. And, you know, and that's how the devil is winning. He really is winning, especially in this area. And it's going to move very shortly from well, you can't help somebody leave unwanted same sex attraction to you can't share the gospel at all, because it is exclusive in nature, and it is hateful. And we're just trying to, you know, push that back. We understand, you know, eschatologically, you know, endtime stuff that the whole world is going to come against the gospel, we get it. But we just want to push it back because that's what the scripture tells... it doesn't say, well, the enemy is raising his head, just let him raise his head and keep advancing. Don't push back. No, the Scripture teaches for us to push back. And I just wish, I just wish Christians would push back a little... at least stand, at least like we don't have to be offensive or offensive, but we just need to stay on the the Word of God and realize that we're already winning, you know, like, but we don't. We don't think we have to be offensive and offensive. You know, the want to be labeled a hater and so we don't stand up. truth is offensive to those who don't want it and we can't play defense we got to go on offense, but I know what you meant man. I'm just... but you were so right about the whole thing about you know, it's going to go from this to you can't share the gospel at all, which this is just simply part of the gospel, well it's an application of the gospel. And that's when people are going to really maybe think they're going to stand up. That's my thought. Is when they actually come against the Gospel itself, that's when I will enter, you know, the fight. But I'm just saying they're already coming, you know, against it. And if you enter the fight too late, you can't even, you know, overcome it. For example, if I flew to Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. And as I got off the airplane, just started preaching against the Koran being a wicked way to... I mean, somebody would stab me in a matter of a few minutes, because the culture is so given to Islam there. Now, that type of thing is happening in America because Christians aren't standing up, but it's not Islam. It's just the Gay Agenda. It's this wokeism that has just taken our country by storm. And, we still have an opportunity to stand up here. And that's what I'm... we're encouraging Christians to do. And I know you're encouraging Christians to do that. You know, WallBuilders is great at that. But there are very few evangelical churches who want to even say anything about, you know, a negative about the LGBTQ issue. It's crazy to me!

Rick Green: 11:43

Yeah, yeah. No, you're right. And again, I think you're... what you're saying is exactly what Christians need to hear that they are already preventing you from sharing the gospel, now is the time to stand up while you still have any ability to stand up. And if you stay silent much longer, in fact, I was just with Eric Metaxas, over the weekend at an event. And he... and that was his whole point was, you know, because he does such a good... you know, drawing the comparisons to the 1930s, Germany what the church did in staying silent and continuing to stay silent, continue to stay silent, until it's too late, and they could not speak up. And he, you know, was just saying we were making the same mistake in way too much of the church, today, staying silent, staying silent, staying silent, and then sooner or later, you have no ability to speak up. And man it's a warning that the church needs to hear how do your fellow pastors and, you know, other folks in ministry, how are they responding to the stance that you've been taking? Not just on this issue? I mean, just the fact that you're standing?

Gus Booth: 12:37

Not well. Not well at all. Yep, they do not... They don't like it, they feel like it's misguided and getting, quote, too political. And I just keep saying, this isn't a political issue. This is a moral issue. I mean, I had a pastor basically chastise me and say, you know, I preach the gospel, and I don't deviate from the gospel. And I said, brother, that's not even true. Because you preach about marriage, right? You preach how to be a good husband. That's not the gospel. You preach how to be a good wife. That's not the gospel. Right? So you can't tell me that you just preach the gospel. You can weave the gospel into every message. And oh, by

Rick Green: 13:15

Isn't that even... isn't that just a distortion of the way... what the gospel is? Right? Like they have tried to minimize the gospel to just the salvation, the eternal salvation piece, and stead of saying, wait a minute, didn't Jesus say the gospel was to make disciples and teach them to obey everything he commanded? So even when we say you're not, you know, that's not the gospel, don't we mean, you know, that is the gospel. It's just not what you view as the gospel, meaning what that pastor viewed as the

Gus Booth: 13:43

Yeah, very important. You know, it's just a good gospel. We... clarification. Like, I believe God wants us to bring all of his teachings to the people of this world, not just the salvific message of salvation. That's to start it, of course, but to just stop there is to stop sanctification altogether.

Rick Green: 14:02

Yeah, yeah. No, that's it. It almost creates a cheap grace in a way. It's like...

Gus Booth: 14:06

Absolutely, it creates these... well, it creates Christians that might be heaven bound, but they are of no earthly value, because they don't continue their sanctification process. And it's a tough sell. It is such a tough sell out there. I've been doing it for decades now. And it's not like I have tons of evangelical pastors calling me up saying, Wow, we appreciate this help us to do this. You know, in fact, I do have some of those clearly, as I'm sure WallBuilders does. But the majority of evangelical pastors do not see this as an issue that they want to get involved in. And that is so... it's such a travesty to me.

Rick Green: 14:46

Yeah, it is. It is. It's again, I hate to keep going back to Eric Metaxis from last weekend. But you know, it's like he said, you know, all these pastors said I don't want to get political, or that's not the gospel or whatever. He's like, you know, get the time machine, go back to 1930s, Germany. And just imagine, how do you think those Jewish families that are being hauled off in those train cars felt? Do you... they're probably thinking, I wish, you know, I wish the Christian church would get a little bit political right now. I mean...

Gus Booth: 15:09

I know! And he's got a chapter in the book that I'm sure you're referencing about the letter to the American church about 12,000 pastors, and it probably is the greatest chapter, contemporary chapter, outside of the Word of God that I've ever read. And the whole premise is just, you know, there were 18,000 pastors in Germany at that time, 3000 were opposed to the the Nazis, 3000 were in favor of the Nazis and 12,000 stayed silent. And that's what is happening in the United States were 12,000 or however, you know, percentage, they just stayed silent. So when our governor put into... you know, signed a law, you know, Tim Walz is the governor of Minnesota, when he signed into law that you can't do conversion therapy. I gave a message the following Sunday that basically said, listen, I'm going to help anybody leave any sort of, you know, sin for free, all of it for free. I'm not going to charge you anything, except if you want to leave same sex attraction, I'm going to charge you $1. You know, and it was just this pithy way to bring attention to the fact that you can help them but you can't charge them, which is ridiculous to me. And so we started ChangeForADollar.us . And it's a website that... I mean, we're not marketers up here in our church... We just, you know, we're local pastors that want to disciple believers, but your listeners can please, please, for the love of the Lord Jesus, go to ChangeForADollar.us and check it out and contribute even, just as much as you possibly can. A million dollars, please, because it takes money to do this kind of stuff. And I'm not... we're not in it for the money. But it's so encouraging to us, when somebody says, you know what, this is a worthy ministry that I want to donate to, it helps us realize that, you know what, there are other people that are out there, that you know, believe in what we're doing, instead of so many that just say, hey, you got to stay quiet about the whole LGB stuff. You know, it's encouraging

Rick Green: 17:15

these videos, but also help make the donations. And I hate to say it, Gus, but I was trying to do the math on what you were sharing there, and say okay, what would that equal today? 400,000 churches in America? So if, you know, it sounds like roughly 15%, 3000 of 18,000. So, you know, let's say, I don't know, whatever that is... easy math, 50,000 churches standing for truth. 50,000 standing against truth, then 300,000 in the middle, doing nothing staying silent. I don't even think we're... I don't think we have 50,000 churches in America standing for truth. I bet we don't have, you know, a couple of thousand.

Gus Booth: 17:53

Oh, wow. That, you know, bringing attention to those numbers. I doubt it. If there are 50,000 churches, they're doing it in their own pockets of communities. And they're not, you know, very vocal about it. Maybe they're doing it in their own congregations. Maybe so, but there's almost nobody who is a well known evangelical besides a few like, I think a Jack Hibbs. I think he's fantastic.

Rick Green: 18:21

Yeah. Rob McCoy, you got this guy Gus Booth up in Minnesota.

Gus Booth: 18:25

Well, I'm a nobody, right? My congregation is like 130 people on any given Sunday. We are not a big church. We're a tiny community of 1700 people way up in the middle of nowhere in Minnesota...

Rick Green: 18:39

But this is the answer. Gus, this is the answer. Guys like you in these small towns at the small churches. If we multiply that by... If we could have 10,000 guys like you standing for truth and leading their church in that way, and it is growing, I must say there are... we have new pastors every week that are signing up and doing Biblical Citizenship classes. They're starting to speak out on this, they're going to Liberty pastor conferences, so there's more and more but you know, to get to 50,000 that's going to take absolute wake up call in America and they're going to have to hear your story, Jack Hibbs and these others that are standing for truth and say, wow, if they're doing it, I can do it. I can stand for truth as well. And some of them I get it. I mean, I you know, I'm almost feel like I'm apologizing to them, but I know a lot of these pastors were trained in seminary to stay away from this stuff and they genuinely think they're doing the right thing. They need to be shaken from their slumber and absolutely convicted by the Holy Spirit to know they are not to be silent that that in and of itself is sin.

Gus Booth: 19:36

Yeah, sometimes I wonder like, okay, Lord, you know, you're in control, like, can you give some more revelations here, please, because nobody seems to be listening to me.

Rick Green: 19:47

No, they are brother! They are. Trust me, they are. And there are a lot of pastors right now hearing this show right now and hearing you and going, I want to do that. I want to be as bold as he is and not just pastors but parishioners, and people in their own families, right? It's the same thing. It's like, if you're a parent right now standing up and doing what Gus is doing in his church you do in your family. That's where we restore the thing. Every one of us say whatever our realm of influence is, if it's the five people in our family, if it's the 500 people in our community, if it's, you know if you've got a social media following. What... if every single one of us, that's listening to this right now will rebuild the wall in our neighborhood, right there in our community. That's how we get back to the Nehemiah thing and actually rebuild the foundation. So I want you to be encouraged brother, we love what you're doing.

Gus Booth: 20:32

You know, I'm on the school board too in our local community, and we're trying to...

Rick Green: 20:36

Yeah, that's when we had you on last time that's what we talked about, yeah.

Gus Booth: 20:39

Yeah. Well, so we're trying to put together a policy that says we're going to only use he, she, you know, or he, him she, her pronouns. And there's pushback, you know, there's just... We live in a conservative community, there's still pushback. But, man, if we could get together something like that, so that other school districts could do something. That would be, fantastic... because that's where the devil's attacking. Listen, I'm fond of saying this, I have never given a sermon on the dangers of cannibalism. Like, hey, community, don't eat people, right? Like, because nobody is a cannibal in my community. So the devil isn't attacking in that area, but he is attacking with the gray agenda. So if we are fighting, you know, against some place where he's not attacking, we're not being effective. So let's fight, you know, with winsomeness, and grace and love and compassion, not angrily, but let's fight against this Gestapo of the gay agenda. But it's a tough sell because the, you know, the gay agenda will just easily label you a hater if you don't endorse their lifestyle. And that's what Christians hate.

Rick Green: 21:51

Yep. And I hate to be at a time, but and I'll say this as the last encouraging word to your brother, you know, this Gallup poll, we talked about on good news Friday, that for the first time in my, I think in my lifetime, the numbers have actually gone down by 7%, actually, from 70%, down to 63%. So you know, 10% drop, but a 7% statistical drop in those who approve of the LGBT stuff. And that's just done nothing but gone up since I was in high school.

Gus Booth: 22:19

What really? So 70% of the nation used to approve of LGBT, and now 63?

Rick Green: 22:25

Last year. Right, right. So that, you know, and I mean, you go 20 years back, it was like 30% it was way... and so they have just gone up every year. And now all of a sudden, I think they've just pushed too far, the transgender thing is probably the main reason, but that people are starting to wake up and change their opinion. But hey, be encouraged. That's the first positive news, culturally in terms of total numbers on that issue that I've ever seen. We... because, like you said, we've been losing, we've been losing. And so this is, this is a, you know, at least a snapshot, right? But a good sign. And brother, it's because of guys like you standing. So God bless you. Thank you for what you're doing. Let's get you back again soon.

Gus Booth: 23:00

Amen, brother. Thank you for that. You almost brought me to tears. That was wonderful.

Rick Green: 23:03

That's awesome, man. Well, thank you for coming on. Thanks for serving on the front lines. Stay with us, folks. We'll be right back with David and Tim Barton. Have you noticed the vacuum of leadership in America? We’re looking around for leaders of principle to step up and, too often, no one is there. God is raising up a generation of young leaders with a passion for impact in the world around them. They’re crying out for the mentorship and leadership training they need. Patriots Academy was created to meet that need. Patriots Academy graduates now serve in state capitals around America, in the halls of Congress and businesses, in the film industry and the pulpit, in every area of the culture. They’re leading effectively an impact in the world around them. Patriots Academy is now expanding across the nation, and now is your chance to experience this life changing week that trains champions to change the world. Visit PatriotsAcademy.com for dates and locations. Our core program is still for young leaders 16 to 25 years old, but we also now have a citizen track for adults. So visit the website today to learn more. Help us fill the void of leadership in America. Join us in training champions to change the world at PatriotAcademy.com . We're back here on WallBuilders. Thanks for staying with us. And thanks to pastor Gus Booth for joining us and for standing, in Minnesota. I think folks can stand all over the country with that same example guys, and it really just comes down to being biblical and be willing to back it up.

Tim Barton: 24:32

It really does seem like a basic biblical question. And having a pastor like guests booth having the courage to say, I'm not gonna back down. And he's very clear on this, which this should be something that is not controversial when it comes to the perspective or the position a pastor should take on a biblical issue. If the Bible is clear on an issue, then we shouldn't be confused on the issue and no pastor should be confused on the issue. If they are a pastor saying that the Bible is the basis for what they do. Now. There's a lot of pastors right now that the Bible is not the basis of their faith or their church, the foundation of their life, anymore. And this is one of the unfortunate things, is there's a lot of people that profess to be Christians who don't think they need to follow the Bible. They don't think the Bible is accurate or real or true or whatever kind of moniker they give it, they just... they discredit the Bible. However, if you are a Christian, you should follow the Bible. You should trust and believe the Bible. There's a lot of reasons for that, which is not what we're taking time to defend and argue right now. But there's a lot of good reasons to trust in the Bible. With that being said, this is not something that is confusing in the Bible. And even for pastors having the courage to stand up and do this. One of the things that's even clear in

Scripture and Revelation 21: 25:33

8 is that the people that... part of the people that will have their time in the lake of fire and brimstone. The Bible says they will have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone. The first one on the list are the cowards and James 3 tells us not many of you should assume to be teachers knowing you'll receive a stricter judgment. So for pastors who are teachers, which that's part of what their role is, who are cowards, and you're going to have a stricter judgment, we're already told that cowards are going to have their place in the lake was burns with fire and brimstone. That's really not a good look for Pastors, so Gus booth is doing what every pastor should be doing, and that's standing up for truth. That is what Jesus said, was a good shepherd, the shepherd puts himself between the wolf and the sheep to protect the sheep. And that is what Pastor Booth is doing, which is one of the reasons we appreciate him so much and kudos to him. We're definitely praying for him in this whole journey.

Rick Green: 26:19

Well, special thanks to Gus Booth for joining us today. Thank you for listening, be sure to visit our website today WallBuilders.com . In fact, if you go there and you get some good materials, it will help you, it'll strengthen your backbone so you can stand like Gus was saying that we should all do. Thanks so much for listening to WallBuilders.