Rick Green: 0:12

Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture, it's WallBuilders. We are taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical and constitutional perspective. And we're glad you're here with us. My name is Rick Green. I'm a former Texas legislator and America's constitution coach. Honored to be here with David and Tim Barton. Of course, David is America's premier historian. I hope you have read some of his books, or seen some of his videos, if not check those out at WallBuilders.com today. Wealth of information there. And then, of course, Tim Barton, national speaker and pastor and president of WallBuilders. And also a ton of great programs available there on the website. In fact, if you haven't watched One Room Schoolhouse, you ought to check that out there. There's so many things that you can do. So if you want to just start, you know, chipping away at it, then visit the website today, read a couple of articles, watch a couple of the videos, just start to get that education. I realize sometimes when you... if you're new to this, if you're kind of just discovering a love of history and a love of the Constitution and kind of trying to figure out what makes a society work well, what do I need to do as a citizen to do a better job of influencing my family and my neighbors and the folks in my church? If you're just starting to do that, it can be overwhelming, and you're going wow, you know, there's a lot of stuff here. Where do I start? Well, I highly recommend starting to listen, obviously to this radio program on a daily basis, we just give you 25-30 minute chunks every day for five days a week. That's a fantastic place to start. But then also visit the website and just start perusing and then look for a topic that really captures your attention and seems like it would be interesting. Check that out today. Go to WallBuildersLive.com for the radio site and WallBuilders.com for our regular site. Alright, David and Tim, we got Jim Garlow with us later in the program. Pastor... used to be pastor in San Diego, now doing a lot of ministry work in DC and working with a lot of our public servants there as well. But we'll get him on the program later. He's got some good news for us, actually a suit that man it's been almost 10 years that this was going on. But you guys, you know, remember we had the... when Obamacare passed, we of course had Hobby Lobby that stood up and said, No, we're not going to pay for abortion. And we're not going to be a part of some of these things. We had a few companies, but we also had churches that stood up to a lot of these things. And it's amazing how long sometimes it takes to get the victories.

David Barton: 2:22

Rick, you just said Hobby Lobby. That Hobby Lobby case. I mean, it sounds... it feels like it was decades ago. But it wasn't that long ago. And it was at the front end of this. And I was... you just saying that, I had a flashback. If you recall what the world and the culture was like at the time Hobby Lobby did that. And look at where we are now, It is almost unbelievable to see how much difference we made. I mean, Hobby Lobby is kind of like a kindergarten case, now, compared to where we've come and so many other areas. Hobby Lobby was a terrific win and it really set the stage. But my goodness, I'm sorry, I just had a flashback, as you said that. And I haven't heard that case in a long time. But it just seems like it was decades ago. But man we've had such cultural war in the last few years. So back to Jim Garlow. Yeah, you're exactly right. And this was one that we talked about, at the time that a bunch of these California pastor said, Look, we're not going to let the government tell us what to do with not only when we can have services, but what we're going to do with our health insurance. And you're not going to tell us that we have to pay for abortions, for coverage for our employees who are here at church when we all disagree with... I mean it is kind of like that Hobby Lobby case. And as I mentioned, I had forgotten all about that. So we at the time, I do recall, we talked about how good it was for these churches and stand up and fight back.

Tim Barton: 3:42

Well, guys this is something that we've already seen a lot of positive results from. It's just interesting, especially when you look at things in California, how long it's taken some of these to play out. And we've talked before on some of our good news programs about some of the positive results that have come out of these different lawsuits and challenges. I can think of things, we've interviewed Mat Staver and guys from Alliance Defending Freedom and maybe even Pacific Justice Institute. There's so many great organizations that have been fighting to defend these cases. And even though now... and and we actually have talked about the last couple days, coming from the Supreme Court, maybe I think was good news Friday, last week, we talked about how Neil Gorsuch had talked about the overstepping of the government when it came to COVID policies and COVID restrictions and the mandates and it was one of the most egregious things that's ever happened in America in a peacetime as far as the violations of basic constitutional rights of individuals. And it's just... it's taken the court a long time to give resolution on some of these questions. And yet, even though the court is giving resolution, it's also crazy to see that in places like California, you still haven't seen Governor Newsom. step back, were some governors, and Rick, you talked about this on an earlier program, one of the things that has been unique Governor DeSantis is even though he did what every single other governor did in the COVID policies and the locked down. Governor DeSantis might be the only one, and he might not be. There might have been other governors, he's just the only one that we could think of, at that time. And still, the only one I can think of that actually apologized, said guys, I blew it. We shouldn't have had these lockdowns, I was wrong, we're not going to do that ever again. And yet you have guys like Gavin Newsom out in California, that not only hasn't apologized, they're still promoting some of the same woke ideology that's so destructive. And this is where it's fortunate that there are courts, there are judges that are finally recognizing, acknowledging some of these policies that even to this day, Governor Newsom still supports. Some of these policies are absolutely recognizably unconstitutional. And there have been some good victories coming from that. And as Dad, you mentioned Jim Garlow, one of our good buddies as one of the stories that guys are right in the middle of it. And fortunately, there were judges who acknowledged the overreach of individuals out in California and some of those policies that are clear violations of the Constitution. And fortunately, there were judges that stepped in and helped make this right. It always makes me think when we see some of the stories that if we did not have judges stepping in to do this, that this is the danger of when Christians, when conservatives, when constitutionalist don't get involved and don't participate in elections, when you elect people that embrace unconstitutional positions, you are embracing people that are looking for moments to be tyrants. They're looking for moments to be the kings. And of course, Governor Newsom, people should remember, when he put the entire state on lockdown, you can't go out to eat, you got to always wear your mask. And then he was the French Laundry, one of the nicest restaurants around, it has a big group, they don't have masks they're going out to eat. He's violating all the policies because it was rules for thee but not for me, rules for the little people, but not for the important people. This is the policy of so many of those leaders in California. And again, fortunately, judges have ruled against it. But if there weren't judges upholding this, it's scary to think what some of these politicians would try to get away with.

David Barton: 7:11

Hey, Rick, you mentioned Hobby Lobby. I went back and looked it up. And it was a long time ago. It was seven Presidents ago that we had that. It was nine years ago. All right, two presidents ago, it feels like seven presidents, but it's nine years ago. So 2014 was that decision. And man has a lot happened since 2014. But as Tim said, Jim Garlow was one of those pastors who stood and no surprise and Jim would stand. But we'll have Jim on to talk about the victory they had.

Rick Green: 7:39

Stay with us folks, Jim Garlow, our special guest, you're listening to WallBuilders.

Tim Barton: 7:54

This is Tim Barton from WallBuilders with another moment from American history. America is a special and unique nation. The average length for a Constitution in other countries is only 17 years. But we’ve had ours for over two centuries. And our 4% of the world’s population produces 24% of the world’s gross domestic product. And every year, we produce more inventions and technology than the other 96% of the world combined. In 1831, Alexis de Tocqueville of France came to America, travelled the country, and in his famous book,“Democracy in America” reported,“The position of the Americans is therefore quite exceptional, and it may be believed that no democratic people will ever be placed in a similar one. This is the origin of the phrase‘American Exceptionalism’ and affirms that America is unique because of the distinctive ideas on which we had been based, including inalienable rights, individualism, limited government, and the importance of religion and morality.” For more information about American Exceptionalism, go to WallBuilders.com .

Rick Green: 8:53

Welcome back to WallBuilders. Thanks for staying with us, today. I am excited to have our buddy Jim Garlow with us. Pastor Garlow, thanks for coming on, man.

Jim Garlow: 8:59

Thank you. A joy to be with you, my good friend.

Rick Green: 9:02

Well, you got a lot going on with Well Versed and doing a lot of different things. But one of the things you did in the past few years was you stood up to the state of California, and you defended your church's right to not have to participate in abortion, a big lawsuit just won and we wanted to get your thoughts on this since you were one of the plaintiffs in this thing.

Jim Garlow: 9:21

We're extremely encouraged. It was 2014. I think it was September 2014 when an attorney contacted me from ADF and said, hey, you know, you're now as you buy your insurance for your staff, you're now paying for elective abortions. I said, oh no, that would not be we... would be notified. They said no, you are. I said, well, I'm sure our company would let us know at least, somehow we would hear it from the state or some... He said, no you are. I said I'm going to follow up on this. We call our insurance company, [they] said yep. A bureaucrat, changed the laws with no hearing, no public hearing at all, violating federal law, four distinct amendments, and simply declared that every insurance provider in the state of California had to pay for elective abortions, including our church tithe dollars, which supplied our staff with salary and their health insurance. And so I says, oh my goodness. He says you want to sue? I said, well, of course! Four churches went in on it. Three churches were carved off into their own thing. We were assigned to go out in a separate case... totally separate case, which we did. I ended up testifying before Congress, flew out and would meet with staff on how to coach their members of Congress on the issues. Alliance Defending Freedom did an incredible job of giving leadership. When I stepped out of full time pastoral ministry, and Jeremy McGarity became the pastor at Skyline church, he continued to press it and follow it forward. And ADF kept on it. And finally after a serpentine pathway, through one court after another, up and down, up and down it went, even the Ninth Circuit, even some judges that, boy, we did not expect the... They sent it back down and said, You got to listen to these guys, get this worked out. You don't want to, you don't want to mess with this. And sure enough, finally, the state of California completely backed down, paid$1.4 million to cover the attorney costs of this long, long nine year journey.

Rick Green: 11:16

Nine years. You know, Jim, I know you teach this as well, we talk about it sometimes. A lot of folks on our side or microwave mentality, they want to... they want the country turned around overnight. They want the culture turned around overnight. I mean, these battles take a long time. And this one is a perfect example of that- nine years, ups and downs. I'm sure there were times where y'all thought, okay, it's over, that's it. We're not going to be able to go any further. You've got to stick with it. I mean, this stuff takes some perseverance. It's kind of that James one thing, count it all joy when you experience various trials, because he's working that perseverance into us, making us perfect and complete, lacking nothing. I mean, what an example of what the whole culture war is all about.

Jim Garlow: 11:58

The hinges of history swing, but they do swing slow. When we read history, we say, oh, the Protestant Reformation is occurred October 31, 1517. No, it predated that by a lot of stuff happening. And then after that, a whole lot happened. So this massive shift took many, many years. Or we think Wilberforce who fought slavery, we say well, Wilberforce he defeated slavery, the British Empire. No, it took a lifetime to do it. And so we read these things as if they, well, this day, this happened. Fourth of July 1776. No, a lot happened before, a lot happened later, with one particular date, to the victory or to the occasion. But the fact is, it's a decades or sometimes centuries, to get things turned.

Rick Green: 12:45

Well, and speaking of that timeframe, and then this lawsuit itself. I mean, at the heart of this was really the rights of conscience, and the right of your church and your members and the organizations that were involved in all this, to not have to participate in something that violates their conscience. That's kind of the heart of a lot of the battles that we're dealing with right now, where states are saying, hey, you know, there's other states that are doing crazy stuff, you shouldn't be able to force that on us, or our churches and schools saying you can't force this on us. I mean, the federal government wants every school in America, this president wants every school in America, to have to, you know... girls to have to let guys into their locker rooms and their bathrooms and play sports and all this stuff. You know, it all comes back to the rights of conscience and being able to say no, not in my neighborhood, not in our community, not at our church. This victory that you guys experienced for the church, I hope is a bellwether for where we're going with a lot of these other battles. What are your thoughts on that? I mean, we both heard from Riley Gaines at a conference, we were just at where she was fighting this in the swimming area of athletics. I mean, it just seems to be the thread, the common principle that we're fighting for here is the right to believe and to act on our belief.

Jim Garlow: 13:55

Totalitarian authoritarianism is on the rise in every nation of the earth. There is no place you can go to. What is this? Is this godly? Of course not. This is the evil one. I'm not saying it's the antichrist, but it's like this spirit of antichrist, rising everywhere to try to crush truth. And when we read the stories of a Deborah or an Esther, or the bold ones throughout all of church history, they paid a price. And God is calling every one of us to pay a price. Some of our listeners may get offended if somebody doesn't like them on Facebook. Stay in there. Be kind, be gentle, be loving, but be firm, stand firm called evil evil for what it is. Do not back down. Do not back down. This is not a nicey nicey culture. This is not your granddaddies America. This is now and the jury's still out, whether this republic can be saved. It can be if the people of God will stand under the anointing of the Holy Spirit and march forward in boldness, knowing it could cost us our fortune. It could cost our honor. It could cost our lives. It may cost a lot. But stand. Stand for truth, do not back up. In this particular case a bureaucrat that I can't even name, an unelected person in Sacramento, one day just arbitrarily decided, boom, we're going to change the law, no public hearings, complete violation of the amendment of... four distinct amendments, federal amendments, in complete violation of the US Constitution. Amendment one... This is astounding, the boldness this person had, but it took all of us this time to press it back to the point, the state of California acquiesced, and said, okay, we're wrong. We'll give you your 1.4 million for your attorneys, and get out of our hair. Now, we have all got to stand exactly like it on every issue. today. Do not back down. Study the issues. Know them, for example, the issue of the World Health Organization, the loss of sovereignty of the United States. Know, that issue right now. It's critical. Stand firm and demand that we stay within the framework of our US Constitution.

Rick Green: 16:12

Man, I just, I hear an echo behind you right now, Jim, that's the Ephesians saying, having done all to stand, I mean, that's just, you know, that's literally what you're saying. Before I let you go just because I always ask you this. I don't know if you remember this or not. But when I was headed up to Chicago to speak at that Romanian church that was getting shut down in April of 2020. And they were going to tear down the church because this church was still meeting and I went up there and we were going to go to a rally, a protest against all these COVID crackdowns and everything and you reminded, me back then we were doing a show, and you said, hey, make sure your heart is right before you go... civil disobedience, yes, there's a time absolutely to do that. But make sure your heart is right as you go into that. Everything you're saying right now, about standing, speak just lastly to this on how to get your heart right, and make sure that you're standing for righteousness, and not just being emotional about

Jim Garlow: 17:05

Make sure your passion is for honoring the it. Lord. Make sure your passion is the love of God. Make sure your passion is the love of the Word. Make sure your passion is the love for truth, and righteousness, and holiness and biblical justice as opposed to social justice. Make sure your passion is for the commandments of the Lord. It's out of love for the Lord and you're profoundly motivated. Then, once you have to go into times of confrontation, keep a smile on your face, joy in your heart, but speak with boldness. In other words, one of the keys, if we get all angry and we get upset, then we walk into the same trap they are. The world's already angry, they're ticked. That's why they call us homophobes, transphobes, Islamophobes, Nazis, Neo Nazis, every word they can think of because they're just out of options, so they just call us names. We don't have to fall into that trap. We have truth. We have truth on our side. That's what bothers them so much. This has nothing to do with Republican versus Democrat. This is not even right versus left versus right versus wrong. It's good versus evil. It's the things of God versus the evil one. And that being the case, it's our passion and love for truth, and God and holiness and righteousness and all things of beauty. And that motivates us. And then our love for our children and our grandchildren, and for the future of the Republic. Consequently, we go with a pure and a sanctified heart. And we press against the falsehoods of this culture with a power of truth.

Rick Green: 18:28

Wow. Wow, brother, ah so good. So good. We need to hear that especially because we get, you know, righteously angry, and we get passionate about this stuff. And so keeping it in the right context, like what you just described, critical, critical, critical. WellVersedWorld.org

Jim Garlow: 18:47

There are three words for anger in the New Testament. Two of them are bad. One of them is a good kind of anger and you reference it- righteous anger. Righteous anger protects that which is holy and righteous. That's a good kind of anger to have. Love you my brother.

Rick Green: 18:59

Ah, so, so much. So many good materials. And you can keep up with Jim and things that he's working on right now at WellVersedWorld.org , WellVersedWorld.org . Pastor Jim Garlow, God bless you, brother. Thank you for the time, today.

Jim Garlow: 19:12

Thank you, my friend.

Rick Green: 19:13

Stay with us, folks. We'll be right back with David and Tim Barton.

Tim Barton: 19:23

Hey, guys, we want to let you know about a new resource we have at WallBuilders called The American Story. For so many years, people have asked us to do a history book to help tell more of the story that’s just not known or not told today. And we would say very providentially in the midst of all of the new attacks coming out against America, whether it be from things like the 1619 project that say America is evil, and everything in America was built off slavery, which is certainly not true or things, like even the Black Lives Matter movement, the organization itself, not out the statement Black Lives Matter, but the organization that says we’re against everything that America was built on, and this is part of the Marxist ideology. There’s so many things attacking America. Well, is America worth defending? What is the true story of America? We actually have written and told that story starting with Christopher Columbus, going roughly through Abraham Lincoln, we tell the story of America not as the story of a perfect nation of a perfect people. But the story of how God used these imperfect people and did great things through this nation. It’s a story you want to check out, WallBuilders.com , The American Story.

Rick Green: 20:25

We're back here on WallBuilders Thanks for staying with us. And special thanks to Jim Garlow. Appreciate him coming on the program and just being a leader that gets it. And I love getting his advice guys on, you know, if I'm going to go out there and be engaged and get riled up. In fact, sometimes my wife sees that, you know, sees me getting a little riled up and she's like, you need go listen to Jim Garlow a little bit, so you're a little more calm, and you control your righteous anger. Anyway, good stuff, fellas.

David Barton: 20:52

You know, let's start right off the bat by pointing out that the reason that they won this was the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled unanimously in their favor. Now, when you get the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals ruling unanimously in their favor getting that is a massive thing in and of itself. So not only is the victory itself a victory for all the churches there and everywhere, but it was so clear that even the Ninth Circuit judges agreed with this unanimously, which tells you just how much as Tim had said, how much of a tyrant Newsom is and how much of a tyrant California has become an areas like this, that even for the liberal judges, they know this is wrong. And yet these liberal politicians are still going to try to cram it down your throat. And the other thing that really I just thought was so good that Jim said was when the attorneys came to him and said, do you want to sue? His answer was of course! Yeah, that's the right attitude. Absolutely, I want to sue, don't even have to pray about this. I'm going to stand and fight for what's right. And that's a really good attitude for us to have in things like this. We don't have to question or have to see what God leads on doing the right thing. You always do the right thing. And, you know, that's why God put us here was to do the right thing. So I love the fact that the answer was so quick coming from Jim. But I love the fact too, that was the Ninth Circuit that gave them a unanimous decision on this.

Tim Barton: 22:21

Well, guys, this is a huge victory, unquestionably. And Dad, as you mentioned, coming from the Ninth Circuit, not totally expected, and not in a unanimous fashion, for sure. But I was also challenged. I mean, Rick, you definitely led into this asking Jim, you know, how do we engage? What do we do? And it was... he's acknowledging, it's got to be the right heart. Your heart has to be in the right place, as you are resisting and pushing back. Dad, we were just recently in a conversation. We had a dinner, or I guess it was lunch with a couple of individuals, some good friends, some some different leaders in different areas. And we were talking about this notion of what it means to be Christ-like and so often the idea that... the picture that has been painted of Jesus in the modern culture is not always the most accurate picture of Jesus, especially depending on where you go to church, or if you study your Bible, and what you read in the Bible, because, Jesus, the notion that well, we should always be loving and kind, well yes, always loving, but but being loving isn't always being kind the way we think of it. A lot of what Jesus did might not be viewed as kind. When Jesus went and turned over the tables of the money changer in the temple, in the Gospel of John, when he goes and he braids a whip, to go clear the temple from these thieves and these crooks. That doesn't seem like it's being very kind, especially not if you're the one that has having the whip snapped at you in this scenario. Jesus wasn't always kind in the way we think of kind. He was always loving, but we also know that in love, there can be tough love. And sometimes you have to love someone enough to tell them they're wrong. Sometimes you love someone enough, you're going to defend them against evil and tyranny that comes. Jesus, in John 10 talked about the good shepherd and the good shepherd, when he sees a wolf coming, will put himself between the sheep and the wolf. And the reality of a good shepherd, is that that Shepherd is willing to not only fight a battle with the wolf, they're willing to kill the wolf. When we remember the story of David when he was going to fight Goliath and King Saul said, we're not really sure you're old enough and ready. And David said, guys, it's no problem. I've already killed lions and bears in protecting the sheep. That's what a shepherd does. A shepherd is willing to kill the things that come in their way. That's what being a good shepherd is. That's what Jesus is. And so this narrative and notion that we should only be this soft, timid, non aggressive individual is not the biblical perspective, but then that has to be tempered with, we need to make sure that our heart, our attitude is in the right place, as Jim pointed out. So we always need to stand up for what is truth, for what is right. We need to make sure our heart's in the right place. But we need to also recognize that Jesus had courage and he was willing to do the hard thing. And at times he was willing to tell people they were wrong and tell them all off when it needed to be done, and that was part of a reflection of how we can even walk in love. It's not always soft and timid. Sometimes it's strong, courageous and authoritative. But we need to make sure our heart is in the right place.

David Barton: 25:12

And I'll add to that, there're adjectives, I think you can use with what you just described, Tim, with Jesus. What he did was premeditated. It was deliberate. And it was intentional. It wasn't just an instant reaction, he sat down and braided that whip and he knew exactly what he was going to do. And he did it in God's house, in God's temple, with God's leaders and the people they had placed there in the temple. So that certainly doesn't fit the definition, Tim, as you said, of a loving, but look at what Jesus did. That was intentional, deliberate, it was forceful, it was authoritative. And he established a standard of righteousness. And that's what you have to go with, is a standard of righteousness, not other people's feelings.

Rick Green: 25:53

just go grab some of the previous programs from a few months back, you can listen to some good news Friday programs, foundations of freedom Thursdays, and then Monday through Wednesday we have great interviews just like we did today. And then also consider signing up as a constitution coach and hosting some of our classes in your home or in your living... you know, right there in your house is I think is the best place to do it. But you can also do it at your church fellowship hall or local library or wherever you like. Just get people educated folks. We've all got a role to play in this. And if you want to be a constitution coach, we give that away to you for free. You can do that today at ConstitutionCoach.com . Thanks so much for listening. You've been listening to the WallBuilders show