Historic Quote: 0:12

Thomas Jefferson said, the Constitution of most of our states and of the United States assert that all power is inherent in the people that they may exercise it by themselves, that is their right and duty to be at all times armed, that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property, and freedom of press.

Rick Green: 0:31

Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture. This is WallBuilders Live, where we're talking about today's hottest topics on policy and faith and the culture, always from a biblical, historical and constitutional perspective, especially on the constitutional side, today, Foundations of Freedom Thursday, it's a chance for us to dive into those founding principles. And we love it when you pick the topics. So please send in your questions to us: radio@wallbuilders.com , that's radio@wallbuilders.com . It might be a question about the constitution itself and the original intent of the founding fathers. Might be about the founding fathers, it could be about a policy of today, and how to look at that from a biblical, historical and constitutional perspective. But send those questions in, we'd love to hear from you. And we're going to get to as many of them as we possibly can, today. We're here with David Barton. He's America's premier historian and our founder here at WallBuilders. Tim Barton's with us, national speaker and pastor and president of WallBuilders. And my name is Rick Green. I'm a former Texas legislator. The two websites, you can find out more about us at are WallBuildersLive.com and WallBuilders.com . And at either of those websites, we would really appreciate it if you consider us for an end of year gift. It helps us to continue this good word and actually spread the program, get it in front of more people, so the more people we get this education in front of, the more people we can inspire, to be a part of the solution actually live out their freedom, be good citizens apply biblical principles to our government at the local, county, state and federal level, the more likely we save our constitutional republic. All of that is made possible by you by our listeners, you're the ones that donate and make it possible for us to get this good word out there. So thank you, thank you, thank you for doing that. And if you haven't done that yet, and you enjoy our program, we would encourage you to go to WallBuildersLive.com today and make that donation. All right, David, Tim, we got a lot of questions we're going to try to get to today. And our first question of today is going to come from California. Do we allow questions from California? Did we change the rules around here something I... Do we have listeners in Cali... Actually, we have a lot of listeners in California and there's a lot of good people in California. I'm just messing with you folks. All right, Scott, in San Diego said, hey, guys, after 10 plus years of listening, I still start my day with your show. Looky there! I'm making fun of California, people, and here he's letting us know how much he loves the show. Thanks for that. On the Sunday following Constitution Day, last fall, I showed the second episode of Building on the American Heritage Series, had an interesting discussion after that, to put it mildly. Many heard things that were new to them. Being as we are a Lutheran church, I was wondering what you could tell us about the influence of the Reformation on the revolution, and the substance of our Constitution. Thanks for your help - Scott, in San Diego. Scott, thanks for sending that in man. And thanks for doing something on Constitution Day or the Sunday following Constitution Day and for using Building on the American Heritage Series and other WallBuilders programs that are out there. So okay, guys, so the question is, you know, we often talk about what's the secret sauce that's going into the culture that produces a particular outcome down the road, in this case, the outcome of the revolution and the Constitution? Reformation, I guess would be what about 200 years before that? How much... Is that about, right? 1500s, right? Would be reformation timeframe? But what would be the impact of the Reformation on then many generations later, the revolution itself?

David Barton: 3:40

Now, Rick, last week, on Foundation of Freedom Thursday, we got five questions in, you said that's a new record. Based on the way we're starting today, we're going to get about 23 questions in because the answer to this question is, there is no America without the Reformation, it's that's simple, end of story. I guess we should explain that. But nonetheless, the reformation is everything about America. The Reformation, it really started back in about 1200-1300. A lot of people looked at Martin Luther when he did the theses in the 1500s. But it goes back to Wycliffe and Tyndale and earlier folks, about 27 different major reformers we can point to over seven different continents over about 300 years, and it's all, get back to the Bible, get back to the Bible. We've gone a thousand years, not been able to read the Bible. It's been in languages we couldn't have. Average people couldn't own a Bible, get back to the Bible, get back to the Bible. And then when you bring the pilgrims and the Puritans to America, they got back to the Bible. And as governor Bradford said, they would spend four hours, six hours a day, reading the Bible. It's a brand new book for them. And so they find criminal justice stuff and they find economic stuff. They find church stuff, they find government stuff. We're not America without the Reformation, no question. We'd be just like Europe,

Tim Barton: 4:58

And Dad, let's point out too, the significant connection even with the Pilgrims being students of the Bible, is they were students of the Geneva Bible, largely. That was a major influence for them. And the Geneva Bible was the Bible that was filled with commentaries. And those commentaries were inspired by the early reformers. And I mean, Dad, even as you joked earlier that we can get 23 questions in, my first thought with this question is, we're going to get one question in, because we can take the entire program, helping make the connection of dots, that if it's not for the Reformation, if there's not a movement back to the Bible, there would have been no movement even coming to America, right? Because also, when you have the Reformation, there's a lot of opposition to the Reformation. You have a lot of kings and a lot of religious leaders of the different nations that are saying, well, no, we're not going to allow this. And this is part of what happens too, when you have people saying, we just want to follow what the Bible says and not be coerced into believing a certain belief or doctrine. like can't we just study the Bible, this is what leads so many of the early settlers to come to America from all over Europe. They're coming seeking religious freedom. And again, the Geneva Bible is one of the significant Bibles brought with many of the early settlers but largely the settlers that were coming, religious settlers, they came with their Bibles. And the goal was to learn to live biblically and to have the freedom to follow the Bible according to the dictates of their own conscience. And this lays the foundation, even when you go forward in American history, to the first Great Awakening, leading to the revolution. All of these are building blocks upon people who were saying, we want to get back to the Bible. So unquestionably, without the Reformation, there would have been no America, there would have been no move to America, by and large, because the majority of people moving to America were moving, to practice religious freedom, to be able to follow their faith according to the dictates of their conscience. And had it not been for the Reformation, this never could have happened. So there is no America without the Reformation. And Dad, as you mentioned, there was a lot of reformers. So it wasn't only the work of Martin Luther, there was a lot of people involved. But as so many people look back and they see that... those 95 thesis nailed the door of the church in Wittenberg and I think that's the reformation, I mean, frankly, yes, that was incredibly important. But there was a lot of people very involved when you go back to your Wycliffes, and your Tyndales, and so many people working to get the Bible back in the language of common man, this was a move that led to the birth of America, which is quite significant, and Dad, you've even made some connections in the past before too, that if you go back when Columbus discovers, quote-unquote, the new world, right? When he lands in those small islands off Florida, he's sailing for Spain, and yet Spain doesn't come and largely colonize. It's not until England, you're talking like 100, right? Approximately 100 years later. Again, approximately, when you are doing the, really the early colonization, there was a... The Roanoke Colony, late 1500s. It disappeared. You have Jamestown 1607. But there's not a lot of colonies. There's not a lot of colonization before that. And one of the things that's an interesting providential connection is it's almost as if God was holding people in waiting, in Europe, until the Reformation happened. And once the Reformation happened, then it was like the floodgates were opened. And that's when so many settlers and colonists began coming to the new world. It was only after the Reformation. And it's so healthy that it was because had there not been a movement back to the Bible, than America would not have been different or special. And we would have the same level of corruption and tyranny that were happening everywhere else in the world at that time. But America was birthed and born differently because of the Bible, and because of the Reformation.

David Barton: 8:42

Yeah, and just to amplify that in 1492, if Spain had come to America in 1492, they would have had a king centered system. If France had come to America and 1492, it would have been a king centered system. If Great Britain had come to America in 1492, they would have brought a king centered system. But when those folks came in 1607, 1620, things had changed. People had discovered the Bible, individuals were reading it for themselves, they were moving more toward republican government. If it had not been for the Reformation, that extra 100 years, we probably would not have survived as we have.

Tim Barton: 9:18

And Dad, it's worth pointing out that if you look back even in time of America becoming a nation, I mean, certainly, King George thought that we were still under a king system. But to your point, if you go back to the pilgrims, part of the reason they left England to go to Holland in the first place, and Holland coming to America, they recognize, again, based on some of the teachings they were studying from the Geneva Bible based on some of the early commentary, they recognize that the king is not the ultimate authority, that God is the ultimate authority. And so the early Christian settlers, were moving a different direction of saying instead of we do whatever the king tells us, we're going to do what the Bible tells us. And so there was already a level of opposition to tyranny from kings in the early settlers. Even though if you look at 1607, 1620, the kings and queens of England still would have thought they're the ones in charge, but the settlers coming to the new world, they didn't have that same belief, innate structure in them. And it was because of the Bible they had different thoughts, and so there's unquestionably connection from the Reformation to America becoming a nation, without the Reformation, there would have been no America as we know it today.

David Barton: 10:26

And while Lutherans had been a really big part of that, and Luther certainly was a big part of the Reformation, Lutherans can rejoice in that. What the Reformation produced was a whole bunch of denominations. They produced Baptists, they produced Presbyterians, they produced Methodists, they produced Congregationalist, they produced... One thing about the Reformation was it produced a lot of Bible oriented denominations, and those are the ones that came to America. And so not just the Lutherans, which were a big part of it. And we talked about the Muhlenberg brothers and how great they were in the revolution. They were Lutherans as were many others involved, but you also had these other denominations. And that's what the Reformation produced was that kind of Bible impact.

Rick Green: 11:07

Alright, guys, I'm trying to think of a good segue to go from the Reformation to school board meetings. I don't have one. So I'm just going to ask the question. Here we go. Second question is coming...

David Barton: 11:14

We need a reformation on school boards, bro.

Rick Green: 11:15

Oh, we need a reformation... I should have thought of that. That's perfect. We need a reformation in... even better, okay. All right. Let's work on that reformation in the education system in America. This one's from Bruce and it has to do with school board candidates, lots of races all throughout the year. It's different throughout the country. You know, some people have them in March and May and a lot of people have them only in November. So you may have some races already gearing up or you maybe you just got through with some but it's a great question, applies to all of us. Bruce is asking about school board candidates. He said, I'm looking over my ballot, I'm trying to figure out how to interview candidates who are running for the school board. I wonder if you had a good list of questions that would help jumpstart conversation with them on pertinent issues. I'm homeschooled. But I'm trying to vote for the right people to the local school. And can I just say, guys, I'll interrupt my question from Bruce real quick to say kudos to Bruce because, you know, we're homeschool families too. But we're very involved in what's going on at the school board level, the state level for education. There's a lot of kids, in fact, the majority of kids still in those schools. So Bruce, you got exactly the right idea here. Anyway, among my primary concerns are the kinds of curriculum that they would tolerate or allow, and how they view parental choice in matters taught to their kids. I'll put together a preliminary list but wondered if you had some resource... some kind of resource like this that would help me think through and be thorough with what I should be asking to see if they make a good school board candidate. Man, I love the way this guy thinks y'all. This is exactly what we should be doing at every level of government, but specifically school board. Well, what would you guys ask a candidate running for school board?

David Barton: 12:44

So it's a great question. And this is something we've had some experience with. We've been part of creating scorecards, and we've helped others who have wondered about questions and helped them get scorecards out. So this is something we've done for a number of elections. And, as you go back to even some of the most recent elections, there were five questions that we came up with that worked really well on scorecards, and we're using a lot of scorecards, and they weren't specific about, you know, religion or moral stuff. It was more about jurisdictional stuff, and philosophical content. And it's really easy to say hey, do you think it's okay to have prayer football games, which now that the Supreme Court has ruled, that'd be a good question, but here's the five that we did. We asked about... I'm just going to read you the the topic and I'm going to read you the statement that goes with it. This is what every candidate got on those races to be able to answer. And so it says, critical race theory. And here's the belief- the United States is systemically and fundamentally racist, and students should be educated on white privilege and the unfair benefits that it generates. Do you agree or disagree with that as a candidate? Second question- parental rights? School is not a replacement for parents and parents have a right to direct the education and upbringing of their children, including the right to see their children's records, curriculum, teaching and testing material, as well as to be notified before any medical procedure or therapy is performed on children. Do you agree or disagree? Third question- boys playing girls sports? Participation in sports should be according to biological gender at birth. Do you agree or disagree? Four- sex education? Sex education should be age appropriate, emphasizing the abstinence based model. Do you agree or disagree? Gender Identity pronouns? Teachers have the right to identify students according to the pronouns corresponding to their biological gender at birth. Do you agree or disagree? Those five questions fairly much will tell you the philosophy and the worldview of a candidate. So those are some that have been used in recent elections. They've been very effective. I'm sure there'll be some new ones added this year or some replacements, but that's a good starting place, Bruce, is with those five questions.

Rick Green: 14:48

Alright, Bruce, hope you can use those. Folks, stay with us. We'll be right back after the break with more of your questions. You're listening to WallBuilders.

Tim Barton: 15:04

Hi friends! This is Tim Barton of WallBuilders.This is a time when most Americans don’t know much about American history or even heroes of the faith. I know, oftentimes as parents, we”€™re trying to find good content for our kids to read. If you remember back in the Bible, the Book of Hebrews it has the Faith Hall of Fame, where they outlined the leaders of faith that had gone before them. Well, this is something that as Americans we really want to go back and outline some of these heroes not just of American history, but heroes of Christianity and our faith as well. I wanted to let you know about some biographical sketches we have available on our website. One is called, “€œThe Courageous Leaders Collection“€and this collection includes people like Abigail Adams, Abraham Lincoln, Francis Scott Key, George Washington Carver, Susanna Wesley, even the Wright brothers. There’s a second collection called, “€œHeroes of History“€ in this collection you read about people like Benjamin Franklin, Christopher Columbus, Daniel Boone, George Washington, Harriet Tubman, the list goes on and on. This is a great collection for your young person to have and read. And, it’s a providential view of American and Christian history. This is available at WallBuilders.com .

Historic Quote: 16:07

President Calvin Coolidge said, the more I study the Constitution, the more I realize that no other document device by the hand of man has brought so much progress and happiness to humanity. To live under the American Constitution is the greatest political privilege that was ever accorded to the human race.

Rick Green: 16:24

We're back on WallBuilders its foundations of freedom Thursday, so we're taking your questions, and you can send those in to radio@wallbuilders.com . Nadine has the next one. It says, hello, I've heard a few friends who are generally pretty knowledgeable in real history talking about how Abraham Lincoln wasn't really against slavery. And then it was more of a political publicity move. I've read quite a bit of WallBuilders docs regarding the state's rights, slavery issue, and was pretty surprised with all the facts that prove the main issue for the South and going in to war was in fact slavery, but still, so many conservatives seem to be southern sympathizers. I'd love some input and resources on the Abraham Lincoln issue. Thank you, Nadine. Okay, guys, can you be a southern sympathizer just because you like sweet tea? Because that's kind of what I would describe myself as today. The way that phrase is used is usually means that you would have sided with the South and the protection of slavery or you would say, no, it wasn't about slavery, it was about states rights.

Tim Barton: 17:23

Well, I think a lot of it too, is if you are from the south, you want to defend your home area, your home state. And so whatever makes the most sense in defending it. And it's easier to say no, it wasn't about slavery, it was states rights. It was an invasion, right? It was a war of Northern aggression. there's a lot of easy things to say. But as she pointed out, when you look back at some of the original documents, and she said she read some WallBuilders articles. We're just pointing to the original documents. If you go back and read the original Declaration of Causes the from the early secession documents, when the states begin to secede from the north, they put out a statement, a declaration of causes. It's kind of like their declaration of independence. When America separated from Great Britain, we put out the Declaration of Independence. That was us announcing to the world, our reasons for separating from the King. Well, many of the southern states to secede, they put out a declaration of causes. And they explained, this is why we are leaving. This is why we are seceding, from the north. And if you go through and read the vast majority of what they identify, was to protect and preserve and even promote and expand slavery. And when you see them talking about even the rights of their states, it usually is the right of their state, to have slaves, to protect and promote slavery, and they should not be forced to eliminate slavery, get rid of slavery. And as we tried to point out in the articles, this certainly doesn't mean everybody from the South was pro slavery. It's much more representative of the fact that you have political leaders that even now, when we look at our political leaders, and especially when we saw Democrats in control of Congress, and Nancy Pelosi was a speaker of the house, and you look what the political leaders are doing, man that does not represent the values of the majority of Americans what they are doing. And yet those are what the political leaders are doing. And oftentimes political leaders get the people in situations or involved in issues that they would not have chosen for themselves. This is why it does matter who your leaders are. The fact that we vote in elections. But let's back up now, to Lincoln. One of the things that is easy to look at for Lincoln, is not just what he said at the presidency, because what often southern sympathizers will point out is, he wasn't really against slavery. And they'll point to a speech where he said the most important thing was preserving the Union. He said, If I could keep slavery and preserve the Union, I would keep slavery and preserve the Union. If I could get rid of slavery and preserve the Union, I would get rid of slavery and preserve the Union. The most important thing is preserving the union. And people point to that and go, see he wasn't really anti slavery. He just cared about the union. And the reality is your job as a president, right, your legacy as a president, if your legacy is that your nation, the union separated under you, that's a really bad legacy for you. This is not a lot different than if you look at the history of Israel, when there were Saul, and then there was King David, and then when it was King Solomon, and then when Solomon's son takes over, and Solomon's son is such a bad ruler, that the nation of Israel divides into the northern and southern kingdom, and really just so many issues after that going forward, that's a terrible legacy. Lincoln was the most concerned that your number one job is ruling and helping lead this union, is preserving the union. Well, arguably, that was one of the most important things. Now, is that...

Rick Green: 20:41

Hey, and Tim, if I could jump in on you here. I mean, wouldn't that have... the founders did the same thing, right? I mean, in order to even launch the union, they had to stomach the fact that slavery was still going to happen in the south. They wanted... many of them wanted to get rid of it from the beginning. But in order to even create the union, they had to say, we're not going to get everybody to agree with us, yet. So we got to agree on everything we can agree on. But we need to launch the nation. Is that similar to kind of what Lincoln was thinking?

David Barton: 21:07

Yeah, but let me add to it, too, that this generation has made slavery THE issue. That was one of about 50 issues for the founding fathers. It wasn't the issue that drove them. It really disturbed a lot of them. But the issue was having a union, being able to have an entire nation that could operate and work together and do the things to... And it was the same with Lincoln, he had a lot of stuff on his plate. Now, when it became that that was THE issue, when that was forced on him, that it all became about slavery despite what he tried to do, then it's a different thing. And that's where he comes out with a different view and says, Okay, then let's end slavery, if that's what it takes to keep the union. And that's where you get the 13th Amendment.

Tim Barton: 21:45

But Dad, as you say, he came up with a different view. It wasn't a new view for him. He had been anti slavery for a long time. But this is where, to the question, so many people, when they study Lincoln, they'll see a few of his speeches, where he talks about preserving the union, and he would allow slavery if he could preserve the Union. Rick, to your question, a moment ago, this is very similar to what George Washington did at the Constitutional Convention, when they allowed a provision in the Constitution, where there was debate, should they have slavery[or] not have slavery? And this was a legitimate debate at the Constitutional Convention. And there was even a debate over the slave trade, because the majority of states, at that point, had already banned the slave trade. But there was a couple that were still kind of open to the idea of a slave trade. And the compromise at the convention was that there would not be any law that could ban the slave trade for the next 20 years. They said, okay, once we become a nation, for the next 20 years, we will not do... pass any law to ban the slave trade. But at the end of 20 years that is on the table, right, we can once again go back, have that discussion. And if at that point the American people agree that the slave trade should be done away with we can do away with it. Well, this was a compromise between the North and the South, and specifically, just a couple of states in the South, that were still kind of favorable toward the slave trade. Well, that was a compromise that many anti slavery Founding Fathers made, understanding that the big step they were trying to accomplish in that moment was preserving the union. Now, let's back up to Lincoln again. Lincoln is trying to preserve the Union. But Lincoln has a legacy, even prior to the presidency of being anti slavery, and Dad, you've talked about this for a bit, walk us through some of the history of Lincoln before coming to the presidency.

David Barton: 23:31

Now, it's interesting that Lincoln became a state representative in Illinois, and he was recruited by two of the most significant anti slavery leaders in that region of that day, Reverend Elijah and Reverend Owen Lovejoy. Those are two guys who came from Massachusetts. They came down during the Missouri Compromise to fight slavery in Missouri to help Missouri come in as a non slave state. And they got chased over into Illinois by the pro slavery mobs that tried to kill them and actually did kill Elijah Lovejoy. But they're the ones who recruited Lincoln as an anti slavery rep way back in the day. They were recruiting candidates that they knew to be anti slavery and get... helping get them elected office. So Lincoln was recruited because he was anti slavery. We have legal papers from Lincoln back when he was a young attorney in Illinois, on how he disliked slavery. He even wrote down the arguments he would use in court to argue against slavery and what his belief was on that. And then when he becomes president, we have papers from Lincoln, with his hatred of slavery and how you actually ask Congress to stay in session longer, to get some bills passed that would allow him to do things against slavery. So there's a long track record. And people can look at Lincoln to say, oh, he wasn't really anti slavery. Well, you have to ignore tons of his writings to say that, you have to ignore the relationships he formed and developed. You have to ignore the fact that when he was in the Federal Congress, John Quincy Adams was there and biographers report that Abraham Lincoln picked up the agenda of John Quincy Adams moving forward, the anti slavery... And John Quincy Adams, the greatest anti slavery leader in Congress in that generation. And so despite what people say about Lincoln, and there's been two or three books that have attacked Lincoln as being not anti slavery. But I'll point out, I can tell you those two or three books, but there are hundreds of books who document the other side. So a lot of people go to those two or three books, they lift quotes out of them. That's what they use to show Lincoln as not anti slavery. That's just not accurate. We have the records, we have the documents. There is a long established record of testimony of Lincoln and what he did. So no question about it, Lincoln really, truly was anti slavery.

Rick Green: 25:48

The last thing I'll say and chime in as we're fading out here is make it fun, make it exciting. That's one of the things WallBuilders does so well through these bio books, and the Chasing American Legends and taking you to the places where it'll happen. I mean, use those fun stories. So the young people don't get bored with history or our founding fathers or that sort of thing, but they actually get excited about reliving those things, because it can be really... it can be very fun and entertaining if you do it in the right way. Thanks so much for listening today. Thanks for being part of foundations of freedom Thursday. Thanks for sending in all your questions. We will get to as many of them as possible next Thursday, but we're out of time for today. Again, be sure to visit WallBuildersLive.com and WallBuilders.com . Make that donation to help us spread this all across the country and get even more people equipped and inspired. Thanks so much for listening to WallBuilders.