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Foundations Of Freedom Part Three- The Foundations Of Law
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Foundations of Freedom is our latest television program. We are so excited to get share it with you here on WallBuilders Live! In this series, will be discussing The Founders Bible, what kind of influence the Bible had on America, and we also discuss the foundations of law! Tune in now for the third part of this five-part series!
Welcome
Rick:
You found your way to the intersection of faith and the culture. Thanks so much for joining us today. By the way, you can visit our website at WallBuildersLive.com. It’s got archives of all of our programs. You’re going to want to do that today because we’re doing a special series this week in the last couple of days. We’ve already been listening to some Foundations of Freedom.
Now, remember WallBuilders is all about talking about these hot topics from the culture, policy, and faith, all of these different things, but looking at them from a perspective that is Biblical, that is historical, and it is constitutional.
We’re so blessed to be able to have David Barton, America’s historian, WallBuilders founder and president, best-selling author, and one of TIME magazine’s top 25 most influential American evangelicals.
He just has had a tremendous influence on the culture over the last couple of decades and we’re blessed to get that wealth of information from him. There are a couple of ways you can get it, on our website at WallBuilders.com that has all kinds of great DVDs and books and resources there.
One of those is a television series called, “Foundations of Freedom.” It”s a recent series just airing nationally. It includes Glenn Beck, Michele Bachmann, and all kinds of other great guests in a wide array of topics involving the culture today and how faith has influenced that.
This week on WallBuilders Live, we’re sharing four of those programs with you. We started early this week with The Founders Bible. And yesterday we dove into the Foundations of Law with Michele Bachmann.
We got most of that first episode on Foundations of Law with Michelle yesterday. We’re going to get to the conclusion right now. We’re going to roll right into part two with Michelle on the Foundations of Law. So let’s pick up right where we left off yesterday with Foundations of Freedom. Here’s David Barton and Michele Bachmann.
Moral Law Is Eternal
Michele:
We’re talking about something that is fundamental. We’re talking about the intentional taking of a human life. And you can’t put into law something that God has already called a moral evil. Because moral law is immutable.
David:
That”s right. Here’s the difficulty that we have as people of faith. We know right now in polling only one out of three Christians believe there’s absolute, moral truth.
Michele:
That’s a problem.
David:
That’s a problem. Because the Bible is full of absolute, moral truth. And I guarantee when you stand before God he has absolute, moral truth.
Michele:
Then that tells you what believers think about the infallible Word of God.
David:
They don’t know it.
Michele:
“Is this true, or isn”t it true?” Remember in the Old Testament after the scripture been hidden for so long and it was brought out in this read before the people? They wept with joy. Because there’s freedom in the law. When we think of the law we think of something scary and we don’t want to see the police officer pull us over. I mean, who would? Because you’re going to get a ticket. But the law is for freedom. It’s to free us, to free us to do what is right for our benefit and for the benefit of our fellow man.
David:
Well, that’s why the Bible calls itself, “The law of liberty.” If you will live by it, you’ve got freedom. That’s why Esther Armstrong says, “Hey, there’s 10 laws that keep you out of jail.” A hundred thousand laws will put you in jail, that’s not freedom. These laws of God will keep you out. That’s freedom.
Michele:
Because the New Testament says, “Where the spirit of the Lord is there is liberty.” And that’s true liberty.
David:
And that’s why going back to the moral law is not restricted, it gives lots of freedoms. Because if you’ll live by the moral law you have control over yourself. You don’t need external control from the outside.
There’s a great quote from Robert Winthrop, “Men will be controlled, either by a power within them or by a power without them; either by the Word of God or by the strong arm of man; either by the Bible or by the bayonet.” He”s saying that if you”ll do the Bible you don’t need the bayonet. You don’t need somebody trying to control you outside.
Understanding The Government”s Jurisdiction
And the other thing that we really get goofed up is jurisdictions. What Jesus said in Matthew 22:21, it says, “Render to Caesar what”s Caesar’s and to God what”s God”s.” There is a jurisdiction where that Caesar has control and a jurisdiction where God has control. The problem we’ve always had is the secular governments think they are God. And they don’t recognize jurisdiction.
Michele:
That”s so true today.
David:
A great example is the issue of marriage. God created marriage, he defined it. In Matthew, the disciples were asked about marriages and he says, “Guys, don”t you remember? At the beginning, He said, “Man and woman, what God has joined together.'” So Jesus took them back to the original. The deal is, that was God’s jurisdiction. That was before civil government ever existed. Civil government came in Genesis 9-
Michele:
And it makes sense. Because if you look at sociology and human interaction it’s first man, woman. Then from man, woman descends children and then extended family. You don’t need civil governments until you have a society.
David:
You’ve got so many families, we’ve got a world full of people, now let’s establish how we do horizontal stuff.
Michele:
That’s what’s so brilliant about our form of government and God’s form of government. We are equal-
David:
We recognize individuals.
Michele:
That”s right because God says that He’s not a respecter of persons. He’s not partial, so why should we be? Why should government be partial or a respecter of a person? It shouldn’t.
That’s what I love about the Declaration of Independence is because a Creator, God, created us equal. That is revolutionary, even today across the world with world governments it is still a revolutionary concept. It shows the worth of you, it shows that when God made you, when God made me, when God made the viewers, we are so valuable to him that he lifted each one of us up, but yet equal.
The Critical Difference Between The French and U.S. System
David:
See, this is where secular governments get it wrong. When we had the American Revolution and the French Revolution- In the American Revolution we said, “All men are created equal. They’re endowed by the Creator.” In the French Revolution their motto was, “Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity.” So they were into groups, whatever fraternity, whatever group people. And that’s what we do today. We have hate crimes-
Michele:
That’s where we are, that is our world today.
David:
One of your cohorts in Congress when they voted on the hate crime law to protect lesbians and homosexuals. One of your guys in Congress said, “Well, let’s also protect seniors and veterans.” And they said, “No, those aren’t the groups we are trying to protect.”
Michele:
I remember that.
David:
See, under the American system when you recognize God as the creator then every individual has the rights for equal protection. You can recognize groups.
Michele:
The reason why that distinction is so important between the United States system and the French system is this, it’s tyranny.
David:
Yeah. It puts government in charge and government-
Michele:
That”s right, because it’s political correctness that rules the day. So when you’re part of a favored group then you get special benefits that nobody else gets. That’s the very form of tyranny. Because when government supposedly “gives something,” which government has nothing to give. They have to take it away from other people. So when they “give” it to that certain group that means by definition they’re taking it away from you. That’s why we had some Supreme Court cases recently that dealt with this issue. You can’t take away my right of religious conscience. Because the First Amendment has protected our right to believe.
Can Government Regulate Marriage
David:
See, this is where the marriage issue is so important on jurisdictions. In 1913 the question before the court was, “Hey, you religious people have your religious marriages. We secular people, let us have a secular marriage. Let us define it.”
Michele:
Sounds like France:
David:
Well, it sounds like America too. “We want a definition of government that includes us. You religious guys haven’t included us who want homosexual marriages.” And so the issue before the court was, “Can you have a religious marriage and a civil marriage?” In other words, “Can government create and regulate marriage?”
And here’s what the Supreme Court in 1913, a case called Grigsby v Reid, Supreme Court Texas said, “Marriage was not originated by human law. When God created Eve she was a wife to Adam. They then occupied their status of husband to wife and wife to husband. The truth is, a civil government has grown out of marriage.” Which is what you just said, “Which created homes and population society from which government became necessary.” Grab this, “It would be sacrilegious to apply the designation “a civil contract” to such a marriage. It is that and more, a status ordained by God.”
So you’ve got government saying, “We can’t touch marriage. God defined it. That’s not our jurisdiction.”
Michele:
And it lowers the value of it. Honestly, when you put government in, it lowers it.
David:
It can become anything at that point. Three dogs, a horse, and two men, and you know it can be anything.
The Importance Of The Ten Commandments
Michele:
We’re going to get into more of that later. But we’ve got some really important things that we have to remember to do. We’ve talked about really important topics. One thing I think especially for every parent, but for every individual, is to make sure that each one of us learns the Ten Commandments, not just read them, memorize them.
I know in our house we have them hanging on the wall. We bought the biggest copy we could get. So that it would be before our face every day so that before the kids left the house or we left the house this is uppermost on our minds. I’d recommend everyone do that.
David:
Well, another thing we’re talking about is how only one out of every three Christians believes in absolute truth. Some years ago they had the Promise Keepers rally in Washington, D.C. and I was there. It was interesting, the public numbers were about 1-1.2 million. I talked to the park police, they said they counted 3.2 million. So, let’s say there were 2 million men there. A camera crew went around and asked five hundred men, “Can you name the Ten Commandments?” Only one out of five hundred men can name the Ten Commandments.
Michele:
And this is a Promise Keepers?
David:
At Promise Keepers.
Michele:
That’s amazing.
David:
These are committed, Christian men. Only one out of five. So, what you’re saying about memorizing the Ten Commandments-
Michele:
It”s really important. Because you know what, I sat down when I was thinking about what we were going to talk about, I sat down and made myself write them out. Because it’s easier for me to write it out than say it. Just that exercise of going through it. And I have it in my kitchen, I have it in my house so the kids could see it every day. I just want to encourage people to do that, especially for your children. You’ll be amazed what they take away.
Know The Biblical Purpose Of Law And Government
And the second thing is another scripture. And that’s you know the purpose of law. We are talking about that on this show and that’s for First Timothy 1:8-10. Memorize it because really, what is the purpose of government? What is the purpose of law?
David:
It tells you. To regulate the bad guys, not the good guys.
Michele:
That’s right. And the purpose of government is to punish evildoers and reward those who do well.
David:
And that”s the other part that doesn’t get done. We don’t reward the righteous, we punish the bad guys, but we also punish the good guys.
Michele:
And we’re doing more about that because our government has been busy doing just the opposite. Gee, why do we have a problem, huh? So the other one is to learn to distinguish the four types of law.
Ceremonial law has been completed. That’s the Old Testament, temple worship, Jesus fulfilled that law. The moral law of which we just talked about, hang a copy up in your kitchen, have one at work, and have one in your wallet.
David:
And read the Bible looking for rights and wrongs. Gossip is also moral wrong, under God, you know-
Michele:
Tell the truth.
David:
All of that. Read the Bible looking for rights and wrongs, and don”t say, “Well, that doesn’t apply today.” Yes, it does apply today, it applies across all time.
Michele:
It”s amazing how the basics that you’re trying to tell your kids are all contained right then and there. The next one is judicial law, that is the punishments for violating moral law and that can change through time.
David:
As long as you don’t change the moral law. You can change the punishments. But don’t don’t say, “Homosexuality is no longer a violation of moral law.” It is to God.
Michele:
That”s not social compact law, because social compact law is the speed limit, load limits on turnip trucks, things like that. So those are the things that we do have variation. And that’s why it’s so important.
Another topic that we need to discuss and stretch out another time is the issue of jurisdiction and separating the powers of government. So it’s important to know the basics. You’ve got ceremonial law, moral law, judicial law, and social compact law. Understand what they are and what they aren’t. Understand and memorize what the basis of law is and what moral law is and we’ll all be better off.
David:
That’ll defend our Foundations of Freedom and that’s what we want to do is preserve this foundation.
Michele:
This is a great start today. Thank you.
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Foundations of Law Series Part Two
Intro Speaker.
Laws. They are designed to protect our freedoms but not all laws are created equal. How do we know the good from the bad? Where does the concept of law originate? What laws stand the test of time? Who should be writing our laws today?
Join historian David Barton with special guests Glenn Beck, Congresswoman Michele Bachmann, and more as they explore the America our Founding Fathers envisioned. What if America’s story is bolder, more colorful, and more compelling than you ever imagined? This is Foundations of Freedom.
David:
Welcome to Foundations of Freedom where we look at important aspects of our common heritage, about which most Americans today have been told absolutely nothing. Joining me today is Congresswoman Michele Bachmann. Michele is a federal tax attorney, she is a successful businesswoman, she’s a very successful mom having raised five of her own kids, and 23 foster kids, she’s also a member of Congress. And in Congress, she serves on some of the most important committees such as the House Intelligence Committee which is in charge of our national secrets. Michele, great to have you with us, thanks for being here.
Michele:
Great to be here today and I’m looking forward to unlocking some secrets here as well. A lot of Americans aren”t familiar with and that’s really dealing with important issues in word scary word called, “jurisdiction.” But it’s actually such a blessing and not just for Americans. Because just that issue alone we’ll unpack during the course of this conversation. People will learn how this gives us freedom and how this gives us the ability to be able to take what our talents are and be creative and build up the society and how we have violations of jurisdiction in other countries. People aren’t quite so free and now we even see that impact here in the United States. I can’t wait to hear what you have to say about it. So I’m looking forward to it, as a matter of fact, do you mind if we start with our first question?
David:
Let”s do it!
Michele:
Ok:
Why Do We Have Laws Addressing Moral Issues?
Guest:
There seem to be so many laws addressing moral and religious issues where you can and can’t pray, how you can pray, the marriage issue, all those things. I was just wondering what’s up with all these laws?
David:
Very simple answer, jurisdictions.
Michele:
Let’s define that.
David:
Jurisdictions, probably the best way to define it is through a few examples. I’m from Texas, you’re from Minnesota. I’ve got a pickup, you probably don’t, mine is red, yours probably isn”t, and I decided I really like red. So I go over to your house and spray paint your car red. I can do that. That’s not my jurisdiction. That car belongs to you, it doesn’t belong to me. I can spray paint anything I want red if it belongs to me. I can’t spray paint stuff that belongs to you.
Michele:
So, jurisdiction, it’s an area. It says, “I have authority right here.”
David:
This is my stuff, I’m in control of this.
Michele:
“But I don’t have authority here.”
David:
That’s right.
Michele:
And, “I don’t have authority here, or here, or here.”
David:
A neighborhood with all those fences-
Michele:
It”s not just geography.
David:
Oh, no. It’s more than geography, its responsibilities.
Michele:
Give an example of your jurisdiction in your own life. Where are some areas where you have jurisdiction?
David:
In my own life, I have jurisdiction over what I learn. I’m responsible for it to learn. I’m responsible for what I say, I have jurisdiction over my words. I have jurisdiction over my behavior. I’m accountable to God for my behavior. I’m accountable to civil laws for my behavior. Those are all things that I can control.
No one else can control that. I can’t control your behavior. I might could punish you if you do something wrong because that’s the jurisdiction of government. But I can’t control your behavior.
Michele:
And here’s another example. One night I was watching a show and they have 19 children in this homeschooling family. And one of the little boys said that he had an area of jurisdiction. He was a 5-year-old and he had to go in, I think, to take the laundry out of a washing machine put it in the dryer. He understood that this was his area of authority where he had something to do. So it isn’t just a government official. It isn’t just an adult. Each one of us has an area of authority, an area of responsibility.
If you’re a husband, if you’re a wife, if you’re a child, if you’re an employee, employer, if you’re a neighbor, if you’re a government official, and so it impacts all of us, this issue of jurisdiction. Because government is supposed to be limited under our form of government. So the president only has so much authority, no further because the Constitution tells the president under Article 2, “You get to do this. It”d be the executive, you get to enforce our laws. But Mr. President you can’t make the law. That’s Congress.”
David:
Nor can judges make the laws.
Michele:
Nor can judges, an another jurisdiction. Because they get to interpret the law. And that’s when we get messed up a little bit.
The World Emperor That You Don”t Often Hear About
David:
See, what becomes an important thing here is who’s in charge. Who can tell me what my jurisdiction is? And that’s a question that has to be answered. It was answered originally for 380 years in America was God to find jurisdictions first and then within jurisdictions people to find those jurisdictions.
For example, you have Matthew 22:21 where Jesus said, “Render to Caesar what”s Caesar”s, render to God what”s God”s.” You”ve got a line here that separates them. That’s where we had institutional separation of church and state. We never separate God out of anything but we don’t let church-
Michele:
So government isn”t secular?
David:
That’s right, government is not secular. But government doesn’t run the church and the church doesn”t run the government. Until we got into about 371 AD, the Emperor Theodosius-
Michele:
Where was he?
David:
He was considered world emperor at the time. He was taken over the-
Michele:
Emperor of the world?
David:
Of the world.
Michele:
And why don’t we hear about him?
David:
Well, we don’t. And we should but we do such a lousy job with history there are a lot of people we don’t hear about.
Michele:
Yep.
David:
But Theodosius is the first guy to say, “Oh, wait a minute, I’m a Christian. I decree Christianity the only religion you can follow and if you’re not a Christian you’re going to get killed.”
Michele:
So, he was a government ruler.
David:
He was a government ruler.
Michele:
A government ruler who mandated what everyone’s religion is.
David:
What everybody’s going to believe, and he”s going to punish them if they didn’t follow that religion.
Michele:
And I mean it didn’t work out real well.
David:
Well, it led to 12 hundred years of what we now call, “The Dark Ages.” And the government officials put the Bible out of reach from the common person. And as a matter of fact, when they tried to make it in English so we could read it they got themselves killed by civil officials, original laws-
What did Thomas Jefferson Truly Say About Church And State
Michele:
This is the right time I think to interject what most of the viewers have heard which is about Thomas Jefferson, Separation of Church and State. And so most viewers think that what Jefferson was saying is that government should have absolutely nothing to do with religion, right? Dead wrong. Dead wrong.
What we learn is that not only should government not have anything to do with religion but we shouldn’t even be allowed to speak about religious things in the public square. But he was writing a letter to the Danbury Baptists, wasn’t he? And in that letter he was saying just the opposite, right?
David:
Well, what you have is coming into Jefferson”s time frame. America was founded fighting for separation of church and state. Because you had Henry the 8th who said, “I’m going to set up my own church. I’ll do what I want to do.”
Michele:
Another civil government official who mandated religion.
David:
Across Europe, it was the state taken over the church and saying, “Here’s what your doctrine is.”
Michele:
The state taking over the church. That’s the important point.
Constitution Alive
Have you ever wanted to learn more about the United States Constitution but just felt like, man, the classes are boring or it’s just that old language from 200 years ago or I don’t know where to start? People want to know. But it gets frustrating because you don’t know where to look for truth about the Constitution either.
Well, we’ve got a special program for you available now called Constitution Alive with David Barton and Rick Green. It’s actually a teaching done on the Constitution at Independence Hall in the very room where the Constitution was framed. We take you both to Philadelphia, the Cradle of Liberty and Independence Hall and to the WallBuilders” library where David Barton brings the history to life to teach the original intent of our Founding Fathers.
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The Mass Flee To America
David:
When the state takes over you do not get freedom of conscience, you do not get freedom-
Michele:
You lose your liberty.
David:
And so that’s what happens-
Michele:
That is what was so big in the United States. We changed that.
David:
That’s right. For example, the French said, “You will be Catholic.” Well, four hundred thousand people left the country for not being Catholics. They came to America, they founded largely New York and South Carolina, but they came here seeking religious freedom.
So you have Protestants who came out of France and you have Jews that came out of Portugal, because they were told, “You”ve got to be Christian.” Well, they come to America and-
Michele:
People don”t recognize that there was a large Jewish population that came in, again, seeking freedom of conscious, freedom to worship.
How Separation Of Church And State Started
David:
Because the state is not supposed to tell us what our doctrines are. That’s a church response, that”s not a state response, that’s a jurisdiction of the church not of the state but the state has taken over the jurisdiction church.
So, you get all these people coming to America that say, “We want the separation of church and state. We don’t want the state telling us what our doctrines are going to be.”
Michele:
This is enormous. And I think people need to recognize what a huge dividing line this was. Yet, one more reason why the United States was truly a shining city on a hill. Because the whole thinking in the world at that time was civil government overstepping their authority, out of their jurisdictions.
The Bible Tells Us The Jurisdictions For Civil Government
Because if you read the Bible, the Bible tells us what civil government can. But it doesn’t say that civil government can tell you or tell me what our religion is going to be.
David:
It tells you exactly the opposite, actually. Because you had King Uzziah in 2nd Chronicles 26 who steps into the temple and says, “I’ve decided I’m going to become a priest. I’m going to offer sacrifices in the temple.” And the priest said, “Woah, you’re the civil leader. We”re the religious.” He said, “Don’t ever tell a king what king can do.” And God struck him down at the altar because he overstepped the jurisdictions.
Michele:
Jurisdiction. That”s how important it is to God.
David:
The church hasn’t taken over the government, the government has taken over the church. And it is the one that encroaches most often.
Michele:
That’s what Jefferson saw.
David:
And that’s what Jefferson saw. So, you have this background, these guys come to America when they get here they separate church and state. The Pilgrims separated church and state.
Rick:
We’re out of time for today folks, you’ve been listening to David Barton and Congresswoman Michele Bachmann talking about the Foundations of Law. That’s a two-part program in the Foundations of Freedom series, the television series.
All of that is available right now at WallBuildersLive.com. You can check out that link there for more information. We’re going to get to conclusion tomorrow of the conversation with Michele Bachmann, it will be David Barton and Congresswoman Michele Bachmann on the Foundations of Law.
And then we’ll have one more program to share with you over the next couple of days. So, don’t miss tomorrow, a lot more great information there. Check out the website today at WallBuilders live. Thanks so much for listening to WallBuilders Live!
