Rick Green: 0:12

Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture. This is WallBuilders Live, where we're talking about today's hottest topics on policy and faith and the culture, always from a biblical, historical and constitutional perspective. Having that conversation today with David Barton. He's America's premier historian and our founder at WallBuilders. Also with Tim Barton, national speaker, and pastor, and President of WallBuilders. And my name is Rick Green, I'm a former Texas legislator. You can find out more about all three of us at WallBuildersLive.com . That's where you can get a list of our stations, you can get some great news each day right there on the website. And you can also click on that donate button and make that contribution. We're a listener supported program. And when you, as a listener, support us, it allows us not only to bring these great programs to you, but also to expand them across the country, to train pastors and legislators and young leaders, all the different things we're doing to equip and inspire and educate Americans to restore America's constitutional republic, you get to be a part of that by making that contribution. Alright guys, Steve Deace is joining us a little later in the program, a radio host for The Blaze, but also authored a lot of good books and one that we had, he co-authored actually with Daniel Horowitz, who we had on a few weeks back to talk about it, Rise of The Fourth Reich how to prevent the COVID crackdowns from happening again. And now also taking one of his books Nefarious and turning it into a movie. So we'll have Steve on to talk about that, because it premieres this weekend. More and more, I think, quality entertainment coming out of the... and I wouldn't even just say... I would say the conservative Christian movement, and also just the faith movement, I mean we got Jesus Revolution a few weeks ago. Lots of good stuff that's been coming out. In fact, I was looking at my movie theater, guys, this weekend, and the closest movie theater to me where I live, and they had Jesus Revolution and His Only Son, at the same time. Two out of the like only seven or eight theaters there. So I thought that was pretty cool. I don't know much about His Only Son. It just, I think it's about, I guess, Abraham. And so I haven't... I don't know anything about the producers or how good the movie is. But anyway, that's what I've been thinking about is just more of that mountain of entertainment, that we're starting to do, I think better in.

David Barton: 2:17

Well I can tell you that on His Only Son, it has done very well at the box office. It outperformed. It's kind of like Jesus Revolution. It went through the top. Even the critics are given a high rating on Rotten Tomatoes, and the people who have gone there themselves. So, I have not seen that one. But it is apparently doing very, very well with the masses, and apparently expanding into more theaters as well. So it's kind of like the Jesus Revolution and some of these others, that they have shifted the really the direction of the quality and the messaging both. And it's actually getting some high critical reviews as well as just, you know, fan support from people who love the message.

Rick Green: 2:54

Well, I was very late in seeing Jesus Revolution. In fact, we just went yesterday, and I thought I was going to miss it. You know, I thought, you know most movies like that only last weekend or whatever. And then the theaters get rid of it. So I was glad to see that it's still pulling well enough that it was in theaters. And Kara and I really enjoyed it. Really powerful story.

Tim Barton: 3:11

Well, guys too, I think, also as we're looking at a nation in crisis, one of the things that we have seen consistently in America for the last several decades is, as there has been issues surrounding the nation, people have reverted back to faith. And it really does speak to the faith foundation of this nation. And obviously we've talked about faith has to be an individual thing, right? Well, we can't live off our grandparents' faith or off our parents' faith. It has to be our faith. And it's something though, even if we're looking at a rising generation, that is more than any previous generation in America, that is, rejecting religion and faith on some level. Almost without exception, everybody who has been born and raised in America had a grandparent or grandparent or an aunt, an uncle, somebody of faith who had an influence on their life. And so there is still a major faith influence and I think as people are looking at a world in unrest and so much people are looking for answers. I do think it makes an increased draw for some of these faith movies, where there is a spiritual hunger inside of people. And it's given people a glimpse of something that could be there. And obviously, if these movies weren't well done, they would not be as well received. Because Jesus Revolution, some of these movies have been so well done. And they've done so well in the box office because the people that went to see them in the opening weekend say this is amazing. You need to go see it. And the testimonials and reports had been so good. And so people looking and hungry for something spiritual, for some truth, have been able to find something in these movies.

David Barton: 4:47

You know, one of the things I think is happening now is there is, we've talked before, we think there's a spiritual renewal, revival going on. And one of the things that goes with that is you start becoming cognizant of the spiritual world again. And it's really hard for people who live in a physical world to actually understand the spiritual world. And I was just thinking of some verses that come out of the Bible that are kind of that way. Where that over in Hebrews 13, it talks about, be careful a tree people, because you may be dealing with angels unaware. And just the concept that God may plant actually angels in our way to see how we're going to respond to them. You know, are we going to act like a jerk or are we going to be kind and helpful. And who knows, but what some of those angels may act like jerks themselves, just to see how we respond. I don't think people think about meeting a person and saying, hey, I might have just met an angel, because they're going to look and act and behave just like normal people, kind of to test us and see how we respond. And then Jesus kind of repeats the same thing over Matthew 25, where he says, look, however you treat the least of one of these is how you treated me. And so it's kind of... there's a spiritual world out there that, you know, we're just so used to our physical responses and our physical thinking and what we see on news and TV and media and entertainment and whatever. We just don't think that some of these things may be actual spiritual realities, that they're just kind of checking to see where we are. And what's our habit, and our response. And, and so, in this movie, that Steve Deace has got now, I was able to see the trailer on that, they gave it to me early. He took me aside and showed me some of it and then Glenn Beck, you know, Steve works there with Glenn Beck. And so Glenn's seen it and Glenn was talking to me about it. And looking at it, it's taken a real step beyond a lot of other movies in the way that the camera work was done and the way the acting was done. It's much more dramatic, acting driven in this. Not just story driven. It's actor driven. But the story is going to be really unusual for a lot of people. It's kind of like, there is a spiritual world and I've never thought about that. Is, for example, is Satan as real... You know, we know he's a spiritual being, but what does he look like? How does he act? How does he manifest himself? And, so it's just a lot of pretty heavy thoughts in a lot of ways for what this movie deals with. But there's no question that what it covers is absolutely very spiritual, real and very true and biblically founded. And I just kind of think it may be another step in the growth and development of Christians, as we're kind of in a revival. And you know, we're... and part of a revival is you have to grow and get spiritually deeper and spiritually more mature and, and kind of figure some things out that maybe you didn't think about five years ago. And I think that what Steve has got with this movie, Nefarious is kind of one of those steps, and the overall growing up of the Christian community to think about things that they've never thought about before. So I just really see this as part of a good trend in the country for where Christian entertainment is getting, and you know, who knows, maybe some days, we get back to the golden years of Hollywood with the Cecil B. DeMilles and all those guys who are doing such high quality Christian movies, and they're just racking up the Academy Awards, you know, whether it's Ten Commandments, or Ben Hur, or whatever it was. And I think we may be headed back that way as a culture. And I think this movie by Steve is one of those that kind of takes it to a new level, both spiritually and also technologically as well, what they've done in the acting and their control the cameras and stuff is just pretty amazing.

Rick Green: 8:24

Yeah, really well done. And I remember, guys, reading the book last, I guess, fall, maybe summer, sometime last year, read the book, Nefarious by Steve. And then... and a lot of definitely... this part comes out in the movie but it was so powerful to me, just the storyline of kind of seeing the cultural dominance in America, by the left and by, you know, what I would argue are demonic forces and definitely the enemy. And hearing it from their point of view, that was kind of the way Steve wrote it. And it just, it makes you go, one of those kinds of, you know, hand palm to the forehead. Wow, how did we not see that? How do we not see the enemy stepping in and fooling us in the way they did? Because it, you know, it's kind of that Screwtape letter thing, you know, by CS Lewis and you know, hearing the demons essentially, say, here's what we did to you. And here's how we did it to you. And some of that comes out of the movie. Of course, in two hours in a movie, you can only do so much of the entire book. But I just think that perspective, for me, was revealing to see, yeah, this makes sense. This is how the enemy managed to take over so much of the culture and in an asleep church allowed that ground to be given. And if we recognize that, then we can take that ground back, but we have to realize what we're up against and how they've taken over so many institutions in America.

David Barton: 9:46

You know, Rick, what you were just saying goes back to what George Barna has been telling us. One of the best questions for indicating whether someone has a biblical worldview or not, is asking them whether they think that people are inherently good. And this movie makes it really clear that as we're told in the epistles, that we don't wrestle against flesh and blood, it's principalities and powers and spiritual wickedness and darkness in high places. And this movie makes it really clear that there is a true genuine spiritual world and our non biblical worldview that says, hey, everybody is, we expect the best of everybody. And everybody's inherently good. And, you know, occasionally they do bad things. This makes it really clear that there is a spiritual world. I think this is a really good thing for helping develop biblical worldview.

Rick Green: 10:29

Well, Steve Deace, the author of the book and producer of the movie will be our guest when we come back. Stay with us, Folks, you're listening to WallBuilders.

Tim Barton: 10:47

This is Tim Barton from WallBuilders with another moment from American history. Many today assert that religion is something private, that has no place in the public square and that it is incompatible with government. But the Founding Fathers believed exactly the opposite. They held that religion was absolutely necessary in order to maintain our free system of government. For example, John Adams declared, “We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion.” And signer of the Declaration, Benjamin Rush similarly affirmed “Without religion, there can be no virtue; and without virtue there can be no liberty; and liberty is the object and life of all Republican governments.” The Founding Fathers understood that limited government required public morality from the people and that public morality was produced by the Christian religion. For more information about the Founding Fathers views on religion and public life, go to wallbuilders.com.

Rick Green: 11:45

Welcome back to WallBuilders. Thanks for staying with us. Great to have our buddy Steve Deace back with. Steve it's like the year of Steve Deace this year. We got Nefarious coming out. Incredible book you came out with, with our buddy Daniel Horowitz just a few months ago wanted to try to talk about that too. But anyway, thanks, man. Appreciate you coming on.

Steve Deace: 12:01

Anytime, Rick. You know, I appreciate so much, the work you guys do.

Rick Green: 12:04

Well right back at you. Love the movie. Thanks for sending me a screener. Incredible, man. Incredible performances. And this is not your typical cheesy Christian content, man, you really went over and above and I just I encourage people to get this. The book's been out for a while. So you've been working on this movie for a long time as well. So I just want to first just say, congrats to you as a friend for reaching this incredible milestone and for the great success I know this movie is going to be.

Steve Deace: 12:35

Well thank you very much. The last three years, of course, the movie we're talking about opens in theaters on Friday, April 14, across the country, Nefarious, it has... The last few years, Rick, have been the most challenging and yet rewarding for me on both a personal and professional level. I mean, it was open spiritual warfare the entire time to make a movie that truly shows people the enemy for who he is. And to do it, without any of the parlor tricks or the disgusting vile antics that you typically see in demon movies. There's not an ounce of blood. There's nothing crude. It's just a really bold piece of storytelling and we tried to up the production value to make it look like what comes out of mainstream Hollywood. And I think we did and I think that combination of prophetic storytelling with high production value is why the enemy fought us every step of the way. But God is good. Whether the enemy attacked my marriage, God was there. Whether he attacked the health of my directors, God was there. He attacked our production. God was there. When we usually talk about spiritual warfare, Rick, we always often talk about it as Christians and that enemy's really after us. We almost never talk about it in the context of a sovereign God. And we watched the enemy come after us this entire time, and we watched God beat him back for us every single time.

Rick Green: 14:02

Well, I cannot imagine, especially knowing you as a very smart guy. You being willing to poke the bear and literally call out this spiritual warfare for what it is, without having the confidence in a sovereign God. I mean, you probably knew going into this, even when you wrote the book, you probably knew, man, I'm asking for these... this spiritual enemy demons literally, to come after me. And so you had to have... and that's not what our interview's about necessarily, but I'd love to know a little of your thoughts on that. I mean, you had to have thought through that and thought, but I know God will be there.

Steve Deace: 14:38

You know, I did not grow up in a Christian home. My grandmother, you know, I was her favorite, the first grandchild in the family and spent a lot of time with her and, God bless her, I loved her to death, but, you know, she was also really into the occult when I was a kid, and so she'd babysit. I mean, I probably saw every horror movie in the... made in America regardless of Slasher, Demonic as you could imagine, you know, during my childhood, so I was very familiar with this genre growing up. And I, you know, I'm familiar from movies like The Omen or The Exorcist who did try to show real evil, albeit in a, you know, profane way, and the challenges that went into those productions. And all of us, you know, the team that put this together is who did God's Not Dead and did Abby Johnson's Unplanned and just as Unplanned was a step up in maturity and gritty storytelling from God's Not Dead, this is about three or four steps up from Unplanned. And so we all were aware that... of the challenges that were going to come our way. It's one thing to be aware of it though, it's another thing to live through it to experience it. And, but I can tell you, after this experience, and we... I have no idea how many tickets we're going to sell. I just know, we made the best movie, I'm confident, that we could have possibly made with the challenges we faced and the resources we had. We watch... When you see this in a theater, and we had our red carpet premiere in Dallas the other night. And you know, the Plano Cinemark. And they put us in the XD theater. The quality of the cinematography on that screen, the quality of the sound of that movie in that setting, just way beyond what we could afford with our budget, but God brought us, you know, closeted Christians in Hollywood that heard about what we were trying to do, that we were trying to reach this Gen Z that's turning to darkness where they are. And we were going to go there with, you know, Christian storytelling and give ourselves permission that, one, we're not going to violate God's word. Number two, we're not going to, you know, go against our godly values, but short of those, you know, plumb lines. We're going to break the mold, stylistically of what typically Christian film making is. We're going to break every rule.

Rick Green: 16:48

Well, I was just going to say, the talent behind the camera, like you said, the mixing, the production, all of that off the charts. It's truly phenomenal. And you can tell it's not your typical Christian movie but also the acting, I mean look, Sean Patrick Flanery, obviously a very talented guy, an incredible actor, but to pull this off is another level. I mean...

Steve Deace: 17:08

I mean, he's Jack Nicholson in The Shining level.

Rick Green: 17:11

It's unreal, man. It's unreal. I mean, I remember watching. You sent me a clip, I don't know, back in November or something that was, you know, just a couple of minutes. And I was blown away by that. But to carry the movie like he does, and the other guys were great, too. I mean, what is it? Jordan?

Steve Deace: 17:25

Jordan Belfi. Yep.

Rick Green: 17:26

Yes. Yeah. I mean, he was fantastic. I mean, it's a great small cast, great cast. But I'm telling you Flanery, if that's not award winning, I don't know what would be. So you had to have been incredibly pleased with just how he brought to life, what you wrote, I mean it's incredible.

Steve Deace: 17:44

I mean, you just look at it. We had Christians come to us that are closeted in Hollywood, that worked off the books, that gave us bargain basement rates, for the mixing, the sound editing, the coloring, the cinematography, things we could not, at the level that you'll see when it comes out in theaters on the 14th, we could not have afforded that level. Sean Patrick Flanery, I mean, we could not have afforded him in any universe. It was just he knew how well written this role was. And he just said, I've never been offered a role this powerful in my career that I think has this much impact for truth in my career. I mean, it may blacklisted me forever, but I absolutely have to do it. Right down to our support staff, Rick. I mean, John Sullivan is kind of the go to guy on the right for Christian or conservative movies. He's one of the producers of the Reagan movie that's going to come out next year. I mean, he came to work for us to run our marketing for 75% less than his normal rate, because of how much he believed in what we were trying to do with this movie, and its quality, and its potential for cultural impact. And so it's just been incredible to see how God has shepherded this all the way through, we only got a theatrical deal, because a mutual friend of one of the most prominent powerful spirit filled believers in the... in Hollywood, brought me to him. Every few years, he thinks there's a movie that winds up with our worldview that's worth him risking his capital, to put his thumb on the scale and help get distribution. He oversaw the distribution for The Passion, for example. And I went to his home and screened it for him last fall, and he was absolutely blown away by the movie. And he was able to get us a distribution deal in theaters nationwide, Rick, without having to go through a single Hollywood studio, we are being able to deal directly with the theaters themselves. And, I mean, it's just, this has been incredible. I have no idea what the movie will make. I don't know what tickets it'll sell. I just know we had almost 500 People come to Dallas for this red carpet premiere, was an incredible experience, got to share with my family, one of the greatest nights of my life. And I know we finished our race, we did everything that we were supposed to do. And now, you know, we'll show the world what we have on April the 14th. And we'll see what God wants to do with it from there.

Rick Green: 19:59

Well, man I want to encourage our audience, you know, don't wait for being able to stream it from home or any of that stuff. Go to the theater because it will help produce more good quality movies like this. The better this movie does, the more of it we will get. And one of the best signs for how good is going to do is opening weekend, opening night, all that good stuff. So I really encourage people to go see it. April 14, that's the night. That's when you want to go. Help us have a really big bang on this thing. Steve, you like you said, man, incredible year, a lot of crazy stuff happening. I don't know what God's got next for you, brother. But he is just positioning you to influence the culture in a really, really positive, needed way. And I'm just... I'm glad to call you friend and really excited about this movie. And I wish we had more time to talk about the book. I got to get you back to talk about the book with Daniel. I did have him on to talk about it. But I'm telling you that book. Well, I'll just be honest, I listened to the audible version as I was trimming trees. And I think I could have cut the trees with my bare hands. I so angry, righteously angry, as I learned of the details of things that happened. So anyway, we'll get you back. We'll talk about Rise of the Fourth Reich, as well. But right now let's keep the spotlight on Nefarious. April 14, folks, that's just in a couple days, go see the movie. Steve bless you, brother, man, I'm so excited for you. Thank you for being persistent, because I know there's plenty of opportunities you could have given up and I appreciate you sharing so much of the behind the scenes, and just God's moving through this whole thing, because that's one of the coolest parts about all of this. But what God's going to do with the movie, like you said, you don't know. But I think it's going to be pretty amazing.

Steve Deace: 21:34

I appreciate that, my friend. And thank you for what you guys have done. I mean, stand in that post for many, many years there at WallBuilders greatly appreciated. It's been in informing, informants and encouragement to me and my line of work and so hope everybody continues to support what you guys do as well. And don't forget, you can see the trailer and get tickets, everything at whoisnefarious.com .

Rick Green: 21:56

whoisnefarious.com . We'll have a link today to make it easy for your folks. Steve Deace, thanks for coming on, brother.

Steve Deace: 22:01

You bet, brother. God bless.

Rick Green: 22:02

Stay with us, folks. We'll be right back with David and Tim Barton. Hey, friends, if you've been listening to WallBuilders Live for very long at all, you know how much we respect our veterans and how appreciative we are of the sacrifice they make to make our freedoms possible. One of the ways that we love to honor those veterans is to tell their stories here on WallBuilders Live. Once in a while, we get an opportunity to interview veterans that have served on those front lines, that have made incredible sacrifices, have amazing stories that we want to share with the American people. One of the very special things we get to do is interview World War II veterans. You've heard those interviews here on WallBuilders Live, from folks that were in the band of brothers to folks like Edgar Harold that survived the Indianapolis. So many other great stories you've heard on WallBuilders Live. You have friends and family that also served. If you have World War II veterans in your family that you would like to have their story shared here on WallBuilders Live, please email us at radio@WallBuilders.com , radio@WallBuilders.com. Give us a brief summary of the story, and we'll set up an interview. Thanks so much for sharing here on WallBuilders Live. We're back on WallBuilders. Thanks for staying with us. Thanks to Steve Deace for joining us today, as well. Encourage everybody to check out the movie this weekend. Go on opening night. That's the night most important to go see the movie, April 14. David and Tim so you know, I mean, obviously Steve wants people to be thinking spiritually when they watch this movie.

Tim Barton: 23:33

Yeah, and its something to that guys, you know, we hit it a little bit leading in an interview with Steve. Steve got into some, Rick y'all were talking about the reality of spiritual warfare. And sometimes we don't give it enough credit. And I think, maybe more so, now. In the last couple of years, I think there's some people being awakened to the reality of this. But I... often times as Christians, we get very comfortable in our Christianity, and especially even our theology. And it's just, you know, we love Jesus and He died for our sins, and it's by faith alone through grace alone. And we just kind of have this very simplistic view which, there's truth in this simplicity, but we often disregard much of what the Bible says. And, I mean, when you go through Jesus and the Gospels with him casting out demons, and I'm talking about that children have guardian angels that look over them and you begin to unfold some of what Scripture says. Even to the extent, Dad, where you got into Ephesians 6 and you were talking about, we wrestle not just against flesh and blood. The reality is as we are seeing the issues in America, we are in a spiritual battle and what's... I think is so exciting about this movie, which I'm planning on going see it opening weekend. I have not seen it at this point. You guys have had the opportunity to see the pre release and the screeners. I have not seen those yet. So I'm planning on going opening weekend, but I'm excited that there is an opportunity for Christians to see a glimpse into something deeper, almost I remember when when Frank Peretti came out with This Present Darkness. And it was such a novel concept for a lot of people. But there's truth in the reality that there is a spiritual war that we are in the middle of. There is a battle for Good and Evil for the soul of individuals, a soul of a nation, the Soul of the World. And this is happening around us. And I think it's important for Christians to wake up and recognize part of the spiritual battle that we are dealing with.

Rick Green: 25:24

Thank you for listening today, I hope you're taking the things that you hear on WallBuilders Live, and actually using them, not just listening, but taking action steps in your community, so many different things you can be involved in and do and the things that we provide you the opportunity to do, from being a constitution coach and taking Constitution Alive with David Barton and myself, from teaching at Independence Hall and in the WallBuilders library and actually bringing that teaching into your home, and inviting people over to be a part of that, or maybe at your church having a class there at your church to do exactly that. You can do a constitution class like that, you can actually be a part of helping us train young leaders. So you can sponsor a student to go to Patriot Academy, or go to the WallBuilders leadership training program in the summer. Those are great ways for you to invest in freedom and invest in the next generation. And the last thing I'll encourage you to do is invest in this program, WallBuilders Live. At WallBuildersLive.com there's a donate button. When you do that you're coming alongside us and investing in freedom and helping us to do all these different things that WallBuilders does, but especially this radio program, which reaches so many people across the nation, equipping and inspiring them, and you get to be a part of that. Encourage you to visit WallBuildersLive.com today for all of those things. Thanks so much for listening to WallBuilders Live.