Rick Green: 0:12

Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture. This is WallBuilders. We're taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical and constitutional perspective. There are a lot of hot topics that we can hit today, a lot of stuff going on in the news from the Trump indictment to a ton of other things. We're going to hit some of those news items later in the week. But we've got a really cool topic for today, tomorrow, and the next day, with one of the most exciting interviews we've had in a long time. By the way, I'm Rick Green here with David and Tim Barton. And if you could picture that kid at the ice cream, you know, counter and mom's about to get them an ice cream. And that kid is so excited. And beside themselves. That's what David Barton looks like right now, folks, okay, I know you can't see him. But when it comes to the moon landings, and all that kind of stuff, I think David gets more excited about that than if he could meet, like Ben Franklin, or Thomas Jefferson. I don't know, Tim, maybe I'm wrong on that. But David is super excited, because Charlie Duke is going to be with us for the next three days.

Tim Barton: 1:06

Yeah, I will confirm for everybody listening. My dad's been talking about this, for maybe a week or two, we got to get him on, we got to get him on. Because apparently, there's like an anniversary coming up of people walking on the moon, Charlie walked on the moon. And he's somebody we've had the privilege and opportunity to have come speak at our legislators conference before, incredible Christian strong testimony of his own life. What God in and through him. But certainly when you start to hear some of his stories from some of his adventures, as a pilot, and obviously going to the moon, it really is remarkable. And as we were talking about even having this interview, you know, guys, I pointed out that we probably need to ask some presumably tough questions on some level, because there's a rising generation that has grown maybe a healthy skepticism of governments. And, you know, we just feel like we've been lied to a lot, which, arguably, if you look at the last couple of years, with COVID, and all the nonsense going on, and some of what we've heard in the Biden ministration, we are being lied to a lot. But there's a growing skepticism of did Americans even land on the moon? Did that ever happen? What is that like? How do we know? What's the proof? And so the opportunity to ask Charlie, some of these questions that for, again, many of the rising generation, they have a great skepticism that this is something that you know, fabricated, it was a hoax, because if America went to the moon, why haven't we been back? Our technology is better. We have more money, right? There's all these logical thoughts and questions. So there's many things I'm excited to talk with Charlie Duke about, but this certainly is one of them, maybe to help give... shed some light. Are there good answers? Is there good evidence and proof for a rising generation to know that this was a thing that actually did happen.

David Barton: 2:58

And since it's been essentially 50 years, since we send somebody to the moon, we haven't seen anybody back, there's a whole lot of people who just don't even recognize what has happened with that, how big it was, that when John F. Kennedy made the announcement at Rice University that we're going to send a man to the moon by the end of the decade, I mean, at the time, there wasn't even a real space program the way we know it now. And so it was just unbelievable stuff that happened. And imagine the technology backing up 60 years or so to the technology of what they had then, and consider what they did going to the moon, getting back safely, the number of missions that they had, it's just pretty unbelievable, because so much of it was with slide rule. And with you know, little plug in calculators, it was just, it's not what we think of today. And it's that was just listening to... I went back through a lot of that time when Charlie was on the moon and just I watched a bunch of NASA films and watched a bunch of their documentaries and watched a bunch of the footage they put out after every mission. And I was really surprised to find how many things came out of the space program that we live with today, that were just the byproducts of what they discovered. And here's a list of stuff that I got from NASA things that came out of that space program, some 60 years ago, and 50 years ago when they were on the moon. LED lights was invented in the space program. anti icing systems, artificial limbs, infrared ear thermometers, rather than than the old under your tongue thermometer, radial tires, enriched baby food, freeze dried technology, cordless vacuum cleaners, water purification systems, I mean it keeps going on and like, man we've been used to this stuff for so long, didn't even think about when it came to us. But these were all products of what came from that early space stuff that was going

Rick Green: 4:56

When it came to us or where it came to us from, and I find it fascinating... right?

David Barton: 4:59

Both of it, both of it. you know this stuff has been out there that long, but where it came from, it was a product of all the stuff they did. And I was really surprised, watching the mission control stuff, on some of those missions. Alright, you got three astronauts up in space, there must have been 300 Scientists in those rooms, and listening to every transmission. And if the guy said, hey, we're having trouble with this, you see a group peel off of 15 or 20 guys pull out the slide rules and pull out their notepads and start figuring out what to do with it. And it was just fascinating to find the old fashioned ingenuity, because I'm so used to technology and computers and everything else, I just hadn't thought of what those guys went through. And when Apollo 13 blew up, you know and didn't make it to the moon, they had to turn around and land it, essentially, using the old pilot statement by the seat of their pants, you know, dead reckoning kind of stuff to come in. And if you're a quarter degree off on your angle of entry on the Earth's atmosphere, you'll bounce off the atmosphere rather than come through it or you'll burn up and fry. And for those guys to do the seat of the pants kind of flying in that emergency and get safely back home. I mean, just the more I look back at how almost remote they were how much in the dark ages, they weren't compared to where we are today, it really seems more and more amazing, just the ingenuity and creativity that each of those guys had. And then the guys going to the moon. I mean, once you get on the moon, if anything happens, nobody's coming for you. Because it takes a couple of weeks to even get there and get back. So I mean, just the courage it took to be able to do what those guys did, the more I watch those videos of NASA, watched the very space stuff, the more I was really impressed with these guys, including Charlie. We've known Charlie for a good while and he's a great friend. But I'm just more and more impressed with what he went through and what he did on that trip to the moon.

Rick Green: 6:52

Well, and it reminds me of, you know, we had Jerry Woodville on, oh I don't know, it's probably been three years ago just talking about how they got Apollo 13 back, and just like you're talking about I mean, they literally were just makeshift building these things to solve the problems with the really old school technology. And yet you've got these things circling the Earth and it just it boggles the mind that they were able to do all of that with the tools that they had. But David, I wanted to ask you because you have known Charlie a while, how did that come about? Before we get him on to interview him, we're only getting to talk to him because you built a relationship with him. How did you get to know Charlie?

David Barton: 7:32

Oh, man, that's a great, great question. I think I met him when I was speaking at an event in Central Texas. He lived down around New Braunfels. I think I was doing something in San Marcos or one of the towns there. And in doing that, he just came up and introduced himself and we just got to talking and he's just such a Jesus follower, such a good guy. And he so loves America. So as we were talking about history, and about God in history, it just it really fired him up. And so we've been friends since then. And just you know, he's just such a solidly good guy in so many ways. He's so open about his testimony, and even the problems that he had in his marriage and how the Lord really took that back in the right direction. It goes back, it's got to be Rick, 25 years maybe that we get to know each other. So it goes back aways.

Tim Barton: 8:22

Just out of curiosity when y'all first met, did y'all like compare accomplishments to just see, you know, like, I've ridden some horses before. What have you done? Right?

David Barton: 8:33

Yeah, exactly, right. No, you've only been to the moon. You aught to see what I've done. Yeah, right. That conversation...

Rick Green: 8:41

David was like, well, I've ridden my horse down this ridge on mountain so and so does that come anywhere close to landing on the moon?

David Barton: 8:49

Yeah, I don't think that's going to be very impressive, actually. That's just me talking, but I don't think so.

Rick Green: 8:56

I think what's so cool about this David, because we're, you know, we were around senators and congressmen and presidents and all that kind of stuff all the time. And I've never seen you like... there's no awe, there's no, you know, there's no, like, you know, people sometimes get nervous around those kind of people or whatever. I think all three of us are kind of that way. It's like, they're just like us. No, but an astronaut. Okay. Now we're like, okay, wow, I want a picture I want to be, you know, it's a totally different ballgame. I mean, this is somebody that we have tremendous respect for. And I just think it's so cool that you've been able to build a friendship with him.

David Barton: 9:30

You know, one of the things that struck me and just looking at the stuff from NASA was historically there are several groups that will never get any larger. And so there's only 39 signers of the Constitution. There's... they'll never be any more. There's only 56 signers the declaration. They'll never be any more. There's only 12 Apollo moonwalkers, and there will never be more than those 12 Apollo moon walkers. You know, we might go back to the moon sometime later, but these guys that broke the barriers, there's only 12 of them, and Charlie's one of that 12 and that's a tiny elite group on the face of the earth. So he's a super cool guy. Really fun. Looking forward to this interview. I've got a lot of questions I want to ask him.

Rick Green: 10:10

Alright, folks stay with us. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, astronaut Charlie Duke with us, a moonwalker actually here on WallBuilders.

Tim Barton: 10:28

This is Tim Barton from WallBuilders with another moment from American history. As the American War for Independence began, the president of Yale was the Reverend Naphtali Daggett. When New Haven the home of Yale came under attack, about 100 citizens rushed out to meet the British, the Reverend Daggett galloped by them on horseback, his clerical robes flowing behind him in the wind, and he took up a solitary position atop a hill. The 2500 British soon put the townsfolk to flight, but the Reverend Dagat continued to stand alone, firing down on the advancing troops and British officer confronted him. “What are you doing there? You old fool? If I let you go, will you ever fire again on the troops of His Majesty?” “Nothing more likely” was the preacher’s reply. America’s early pastors personally confronted danger and courageously led their communities. For more information on Pastor Daggett and other colonial patriots, go to WallBuilders.com .

David Barton: 11:27

Charlie, when I think about what you did, or what you've been through, I think of, as a historian, there are some closed groups in history that will never get any bigger. There's never going to be more than 39 signers of the Constitution. There's never going to be more than the 56 who signed the declaration. And there's never going to be more than 12 Apollo moonwalkers. That's all we've had. And so you're one of those 12. And so, you know, I want to start with how you got started, because I heard you say one time that you responded to a want ad in the Los Angeles Times where NASA was asking for astronauts, and there was like, 3,500 of you guys and it ended up getting whittled down to 19, and you were part of that 19. So how did that process... What did they do to thin it down from 3,500 down to just the 19 that they had in the Apollo program?

Charlie Duke: 12:13

Well, I think they looked at our records, and how much flying experience, education experience. And, those of us that came up with master's degrees and flying experience were put into, were really looked at carefully. We had physicals and then an interview, the qualifications that they published in the paper, to become an astronaut, was very simple. It was just a bachelor's degree, 1,000... I think it was 1000 hours flying time, less than six feet tall, American citizen and you had to be a male. And that was about it. So a lot of people qualified. They had about, I think, 3,500 applications, but they only looked at about 300 of us, I think, who were mostly graduate degrees and the type of flying and, you know, and all other things, with physical and stuff.

David Barton: 13:21

So once they get you down to those 19, I mean, you guys went through the training, and I was just... I went back and listened to some of the NASA tapes, listened to you guys, when you were on the moon and talking back and forth. And, you and John and Mattingly and others. And so, if it's okay with you, what I'm going to do is, I would listen to that and I think, I wonder what Charlie was thinking then, or why he said that or whatever. So, I'm going to play some of those tapes, if that's okay, and then kind of get you to respond to some things. And literally, Charlie, as I was going over that, I was reminded of First Corinthians 2:9 where it talks about that there are certain things that no eye has seen, no ear has heard, it can't even imagine. And so asking you questions on how to describe it, it's going to be kind of like a blind person, who's been blind all their life, like we are, and you're trying to tell us what you've seen and we don't know how to compare it. So let me play some of these clips that I just kind of put together on things you were saying on the moon

Charlie Duke: 14:14

Wow! Fantastic! What a place, what a view, isn't it John?

John Young: 14:22

It's absolutely unreal.

Charlie Duke: 14:28

...it's just spectacular. I have never seen... All I can say is spectacular and I know y'all are sick of that word but my vocabulary is so limited.

John Young: 14:38

I think we've seen as much in 10 days as most people see in 10 lifetimes.

David Barton: 14:48

So that was you and John, but I mean, here you are back, we don't... we never saw what you saw. What sticks with you? What do you still remember from that time when you were on the moon 50 plus years ago? What do you remember?

Charlie Duke: 15:01

Well, I remember the beauty of it, as Buzz Aldrin said it, magnificent desolation. And we... as we looked out the windows, we recognized our landing spot, of course, we'd studied it for a couple years in training, and so the excitement of seeing Stone Mountain to the left and Smoky Mountains off to the right, and the rolling, gray terrain, going off to the horizon, to the west of us. It was just exciting. And we were six hours... we were so excited at this point, because we were six hours late behind schedule, in landing and we almost didn't get to land because of a problem we were having any other spacecraft. But so part of our excitement was the excitement that we really are here are we really did get a chance to land and even though it was six hours behind schedule.

David Barton: 16:00

So if they would have canceled that landing, if you had to return to Earth, would they have sent you back on another one? Would there have been another cycle that you went on? Or would that be it for you?

Charlie Duke: 16:12

That's it. We were... they'd already selected crews for 17. And at this point, that was, 17 was the last flight, they had canceled 18, 19, I think 20. And so this was our only chance. If we didn't get the land, we came back, and like Apollo 13, they were scheduled to land but with explosion on board, on the way out, they couldn't land. So they lost their chance. And if we hadn't have landed, we'd have lost our chance.

David Barton: 16:47

So, how close was it, do you guys just kind of decide to land anywhere? Or would you have done that? Would you, I mean, was there any chance that you would have said, hey, we're here, we're going to land?

Charlie Duke: 16:57

No, that was not possible. The problem was in the other spacecraft, and that was your ride home. And the engine wasn't... a control system, one of the control systems of the engine wasn't working. And so that was a mission rule abort. And we were going to have to come home. But Mission Control got very good at looking into analyzing a problem, and they couldn't fix it. But they gave us a workaround. So that if it did happen, then we could use this on the procedure. And that gave us a Go for landing. But the... that process took six hours, and the moon was slowly rotating out from under our orbit. And so we had a lot of cross range to get back to our landing site. And this was the last orbit, we could get back with enough fuel. So if we'd have waited, let's say waited another hour, I don't know what they would have done, whether they... they probably would not have picked out a new landing site. But that might have been a possibility. We'd have probably just aborted and come home. But it... I mean, we were down in the dumps, if you will, when they made us abort the first time. And so, you know, you can imagine training two years, being 80,000 feet from your landing spot, and they tell you to come home. That would have been a very bitter pill to swallow, David.

David Barton: 18:48

Hey, Charlie, if you can hold that thought for a minute. We got to take a quick break. We'll be right back on WallBuilders.

Rick Green: 19:02

Hey friends! If you have been listening to WallBuilders Live for very long at all, you know how much we respect our veterans and how appreciative we are of the sacrifices they make to make our freedoms possible. One of the ways that we love to honor those veterans is to tell their stories here on WallBuilders Live. Once in awhile, we get an opportunity to interview veterans that have served on those front lines that have made incredible sacrifices have amazing stories that we want to share with the American people. One of the very special things we get to do is interview World War II veterans. You’ve heard those interviews here on WallBuilders Live, from folks that were in the Band of Brothers, to folks like Edgar Harrell that survived the Indianapolis to so many other great stories you heard on WallBuilders Live. You have friends and family that also served. If you have World War II veterans in your family that you would like to have their story shared here on WallBuilders Live, please email us at radio@WallBuilders.com . Give us a brief summary of the story and we’ll set up an interview. Thanks so much for sharing here on WallBuilders Live!

David Barton: 20:04

Okay, Charlie, we're back. So picking up with what we were talking about- when you guys finally get the word and you guys touch down, then you rest for a while and get started on your stuff. And I was watching as you guys went out to various places and kind of exploring doing scientific experiments. And one of them I thought of was... I was reminded of the verse that Paul had, where he was talking about there was dangers all around him, dangers from without and within and I mean, you guys have been there, you get some kind of preparation with the pictures and things. But then I was listening to the conversation that you and John had on the crater edge, and here's the conversation.

John Young: 20:39

Man, does this thing have steep walls.

Charlie Duke: 20:43

They said 60 degrees.

John Young: 20:45

Now, I tell you, I can't see to the bottom of it and I'm as close to the edge as I'm going to get. That's the truth.

David Barton: 20:52

So what made the crater so dangerous? And what kind of other dangerous stuff did you guys have around you?

Charlie Duke: 20:59

Well, this... that stop was on the last EVA, and we were at what was called North Ray crater. And it was over 500 meters in diameter and probably 300 feet deep. And the walls were very steep. It was, geologically it was a very fresh crater. And so it had occurred within millennia before but it looks very fresh to us. And so... and to the geologists and so that was why we had this objective. And so if... you can see across the crater down into it, but you couldn't see the bottom, it was so deep. And if you were unsure of your footing, when you got close to a big crater like that, because if it broke off and slipped in, you were down on the bottom of that crater. And if you've survived the fall, you couldn't get out. So we had to be very careful how close we got. And that's what John was saying, I'm not getting any closer than this. And so we didn't... and never, never did see the bottom of it. But we sampled some big rocks on the side of it. And I took some long range photographs on the far side. And you can see layering in the rock of the side of the crater. So it was very unusual. It's the biggest one, investigated in all of Apollo.

David Barton: 22:40

You know, I was thinking even the psychological side of this, because I've heard you say that there was only four hours every 30 days that you guys could launch from the moon. So clearly, if anything happens to you guys up there, there's no help coming. I mean, you don't have the stuff to last 30 days. So just the psychological aspect. I mean, did you ever think about the fear aspect? Are were you just confident in what you had in the technology and your training? Did any of that danger side ever crossed your mind?

Charlie Duke: 23:07

Well, first, they... I think we were well trained, and we had confidence in our equipment. And we didn't think about it because, why worry about it? Because, there was nothing you could do about it. So don't worry about it. Keep it out of... We just kept it out of our minds.

David Barton: 23:25

So you guys are out doing scientific experiments. And I... you know, I know that's a huge part of what was going on when he got there. And here's a couple of clips on that. that intrigued me.

Charlie Duke: 23:37

I'm not leaning on it...

Speaker: 23:38

Duke drilled a hole into which a heat flow probe was to be placed, part of one of the experiments attached to this station.

Charlie Duke: 23:46

Look at the size of that rock! The closer I get to it, the bigger it is.

John Young: 23:53

Yeah, but look at the permanent shadowed part, Charlie.

Charlie Duke: 23:54

On this side over here? ... That's your House Rock, right there.

John Young: 24:00

Don't get you near the edge of that thing, it falls. Look over at your right, it falls off pretty good...

David Barton: 24:10

So what kind of things were you guys supposed to do on your mission, Charlie? What was [the] scientific stuff you were after?

Charlie Duke: 24:16

Well, that was a whole suite of experiments called Apollo ALSEP the Apollo lunar surface experiments package. And what that first clip you gave was me drilling a hole into the moon. I had three of them to do. And they were 10 feet deep each, and John Young, unfortunately got wrapped up in the electrical power that power that experiment. So we lost that experiment. But the drilling into the moon was a little iffy. We had a battery powered drill and handheld, and so we'd hold it and drill in as far as we could. But if we hit a big rock down beneath, it just basically stopped it. So that was the first one. It turned out that experiment didn't work because of the electrical power broke on it. The second was this, again, up at that big crater, we saw a rock on the, let's say, would be the northeast side, and we were on the southeast side. And we wanted to go over there, well it's... up on the moon, it's hard to judge distance because you don't see any objects that you have seen before, like trees and houses and people and cars. Down here, you get a chance, you get a pretty good idea of distance due to the familiarity of the objects. But up on the moon, you're just looking at rocks and a big rock far away looks the same as a smaller rock close by.

Rick Green: 26:11

Alright folks, we got to interrupt the interview for actually not for a moment, but for a day. We're going to be back tomorrow and pick up right where we left off with the interview with Charlie Duke. Don't miss it. You can get it at our website, today. But tell your friends and family to listen to WallBuilders, you never know who you're going to hear. And tomorrow once again, we're going to be with moonwalker astronaut Charlie Duke. Thanks for listening to WallBuilders.