Reaffirming Religious Liberty: Education and America’s Spiritual Legacy

Rick Green

Welcome to the intersection of faith in the culture. It's wall builders. We're taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical and constitutional perspective. I'm Rick Green here with David and Tim Barton and David Tim, we've got another legislator today. We've got a Utah representative with us by the name of Mike Peterson. We're going to be talking about his 10 Commandments bill in Utah.

Of course, guys, this is one we've talked about for years and years and years here on wall builders and talked about at our legislators conference. And another reminder to folks to make sure their legislator knows about it. And if you want to support getting good legislation like this by getting good legislators getting together to talk about these things, go to wallbuilders.com today and make a contribution and you're helping us not only to train legislators but pastors. Go into our pastor's briefings in DC, all the different trainings that we do throughout the summer with young people and teachers and everything else. It's a great way to invest in freedoms. Check that out today at wallbuilders.com. But, guys, so this one today, though, on the 10 Commandments bill, this one has a chance for a lot more momentum now that we've had the Coach Kennedy case, we've got the chaplain bills and other things. There's a lot of good momentum in state legislatures on religious liberty issues.

David Barton

Yeah, there is. And one of the things I think is worth pointing out, Tim and I just finished the book the American Story Building the Republic, and so it looks at the first seven presidents, and one of the things we really focused on was Washington. When he left office after 45 years of service, he gave us farewell address. 

Tim Barton

How long was he the president? 

David Barton

45 years of service! I didn't say president, I mean, I'm just saying that's a long time as an elected official, that's a while.

It was a two terms and it lasted a long time. So that's military service state legislature.

Tim Barton

Although, as long as we're talking about 45 years of service, interesting point how long was he a state legislator?

David Barton

Oh, he was a state legislator. Almost 20 years. Yeah, I think it was 17 or 18 years, right?

Tim Barton

So here's what's interesting.

Our good friend Rick Green would have opposed George Washington being a good point because, right, our good friend, Rick Green, is like wait a second guys term limits.

He shouldn't be there anymore. You know, I know I feel like was it last week we talked about George Washington being the number one guy.

Rick Green

Just think about how much better his farm would have been if Now wait. But you did say state legislature right that he served that long, oh yeah. Yeah, I think. I think my kids have actually convinced me to be for congressional term limits, federal term limits and not state term limits so I might be. I might be able to slide your way on this one.

Tim Barton

So so you still would have George Washington, okay, okay, good, good, dad, I apologize, I didn't mean to derail you, I just you know. So he was he was an elected official.

David Barton

How long have we had this, this battle of terms, oh man at least 20 years.

Rick Green

But the best, the best story from this whole thing ever was that time in Idaho when you got there early to speak at Patriot Academy and, and I didn't know, you were against term limits. And so I came in and I thought it was just you and me in the room and my son, Rhett, was sitting over in the corner working on his computer, and I didn't know it. And I said I said, hey, David, make sure you hit term limits. We want to. We want to really tell them about why that's important to do. And you said I'm against term limits. And so he used that on the floor to kill the bill later because he found out you were. Anyway, we've had fun with this for a long time.

David Barton

Yeah, we have. It's great, and you know we could disagree and be friends. How come? How come we can't do this on the national level?

We don't have to think exactly the same. We have the same heart for stuff. So back to Washington. Washington after 45 years, it's okay, guys. Here's all this wisdom I've garnered over these years and here's the things you need to remember to help make America work the way it should. So it's farewell address. There's probably a dozen different warnings in there, but it was so significant that we studied that in school for Generations. And what we found when we looked at the first seven presidents was when they made major mistakes, in every case it was because they ignored one of the principles in Washington's farewell address. And what we learned is just like out of 2 Corinthians 3:6, it says the letter of the law kills, but the spirit of the law gives life. You can use the Constitution in a way that it becomes a very abusive tool. If you don't use the spirit of the Constitution, you just take the literal wording and you can miss apply it.

But if you use the spirit, you get it right and

Tim Barton

 And to be clear for those listening, the spirit of the Constitution Was largely outlined in the declaration. That's right, right, where the declaration is where we get the idea. Where do our rights come from? They come from a creator, and government exists to protect those rights and the rights identify. The first of those was life and liberty, the pursuit of happiness.

Well, this is where even the, the anti slavery founding fathers and emerald a John Quincy Adams going forward, when he does so much fighting slavery, he points out that not only does the founding document, when he said this, meaning the declaration, say that all men are created equal, they pointed out that slavery was a violation of the laws of nature, which the declaration also pointed out. Well, the Constitution didn't say those things. Those things were outlined in the declaration. The declaration was the spirit, the Constitution was the letter of the law, dad, to make this point. So when, when you can follow the Constitution and still do things that are anti-American, it's because you, you are going against a spirit of what was written there. You can use the letter and you can use it to be right, very, very kind of Phariseeakle right, very legalistic, and it not be beneficial for the American people if you don't have the right heart and spirit and what you're doing and what we make really clear and show really 

David Barton

Clearly in the new book and, by the way, it's a great book to get.

you'll learn a lot about America. But the Declaration of Independence and Washington's farewell address are the two documents that will keep us on track. When you apply the Constitution, you take the Constitution, use the spirit of the declaration, the spirit of Washington's farewell address, and one of the things Washington said was that religion and morality are indispensable supports. He said if you want your politics to work well, do not separate religion, morality. And yet that's exactly what the court did, starting back in the 1960s. And so we went for a period of roughly 50 years where the court said no, can't have religion in public. And it was through a decision known as the limit decision. They created a lemon test and over 7,000 cases, federal cases where the court used that test to eliminate Religion from public. That violates the spirit of the Constitution. So what's happened? We've had the court in the last three years come up with four decisions, say no, limit test Wasn't good test and finally, in 22. They said limit test is out the door. We vacate the limit test. 7,300 court decisions were wrong when we made them 

Tim Barton

and, very specifically, they didn't, when you're saying they came up with this idea that, like the modern court, they came up and said, hey, we're not doing that anymore. No, no, no, I mean to be to go a little deeper on this, to be a little more specific. They didn't just come up with this. What they pointed out was the original decision contradicts Constitution and they never referenced the Constitution to do these original decisions.

In fact, in some of these decisions they said they were doing it without precedent. Well, without precedent means that this has never been done before, right, that this is a violation of the Constitution. And so the modern justices said that we recognize this was a bad decision from beginning because it was unconstitutional. And they're saying we're going back to follow the Constitution. Therefore, all these unconstitutional things, we're throwing those out the window. Well, that's really good news. But one of the things they threw out the window, dad, to your point was the lemon test, which was used largely to exclude religion from public. And the lemon test was used back in 1980, the case Stone v Graham, where the Supreme Court said you can't display copies of the Ten Commandments out in public. You can't display those specifically in school because kids aren't supposed to see the Ten Commandments. That's a violation of religion, separation of church and state. You can't have religion. And so in 1980, according to the Supreme Court decision, the Ten Commandments were, for the first time in any kind of legal perspective, removed from public schools. Well, now, with this lemon test being removed, which was a standard they used in 1980, the standard now that says you can't have the Ten Commandments is gone, which means we can have the Ten Commandments again if we can find states that are willing to do this, and the good news is we talked about yesterday with Reb Zachary from Tennessee.

We've been very connected with a lot of state legislators for a lot of years and we pointed out to them guys, just so you know, landscape has changed, legal framework has changed. Let's go back to history. Let's go back to early education. Let us show you some of these things from history. The New England Primer right, Noah Webster's history books. Let us show you some of these early textbooks and you know what they focused on. The Ten Commandments was a major theme in early American education and it was in education all the way to the 1980s. There are now states actually working to restore the basis of morality in the Western Hemisphere, in the Western world and in America, which is largely rooted in the Ten Commandments, and so this is something that we actually get to talk to some point today. Who is working to restore the Ten Commandments in the educational structure in their state?

Rick Green

Mike Peterson is his name. He's a state rep in Utah and he'll be with us when we come back from the break, so with us. Folks, you're listening to the Wall Builder Show.

Tim Barton

Hey guys, it's Tim Barton and I want to tell you about our new book, the American Story Building the Republic. We start with George Washington as president and we've already become a nation. So really now it's how do we function as a nation? And if we look back in American history, the stability, the prosperity, the success we enjoyed as Americans is because of the foundation that our early presidents laid, because of the examples they set. How do we live in America under the Constitution? What is the role of federal government and really what part did each one of these early presidents play? We go to the first seven presidents and a lot of people probably know the names Washington, Adams, Jefferson and Madison. Very few people know about Monroe or John Quincy Adams or Andrew Jackson. Now, we might know some of their names, we really don't know their stories. We want you to relearn, rediscover American history and see how it applies to today. Go to wallbuilders.com and get your copy of the American Story Building the Republic.

Rick Green

Welcome back to WallBuilders. Thanks for staying with us. We got Representative Mike Peterson with us from Utah. Mike, how you doing, brother? Thanks for coming on. Man, 

Mike Peterson

I'm doing well. Thanks so much for giving me a chance to talk. 

Rick Green

Absolutely. Thanks for doing the 10 Commandments. This is so good. We need this all over the country, you know, restoring the basics of what makes for a good society. I'm guessing you got some pushback on this, but it seems like the people are with you and they want to see this restoration of these basic values.

Mike Peterson

You know, I'm glad you call it the restoring, because that's one of the things I kept telling people was this is not about I'm not just trying to put them in, I'm trying to put them back. We used to have 10 commandments all over the country, including in schools, and we need to put them back. It's not by accident, I think, that our children are growing up the way they are and having the struggles that they are. But as far as perspective, yeah, it's been a little rough sledding for the last several weeks, but you know, I've thought many times, Rick, about what is John Quincy Adams talking about? Duty as ours, results are God's and I just, you know, put my head down and prayed, kept going. And I did the you folks there at Pro Family and WallBuilders were praying for me and, yeah, it all worked out.

Rick Green

Well, that's good, that's good. So let's back up to the bill itself. What specifically does the bill do? And then and I know you all just now finished your session, tell us how everything turned out.

Mike Peterson

So what the bill says is that in our so we took a piece of code you know the statute that talks about American history and government curricula, and said and it included a list of documents that a teacher would use in teaching American history and government. It included, you know, the constitution and the Mayflower Compact, but 10 or 12 different, different items and I said why don't we put the 10 commandments in there? Add that to it. I also added the Magna Carta. Magna Carta, of course, didn't raise a single question, nobody asked me about that, nobody called and gave me a heat mail for that one but the 10 commandments. So it was very simple to add that back into the curriculum that teachers could use when they had their discussions about American history and government.

Rick Green

Yeah, and not even necessarily saying you got to spend this much time on this one and this much time, just saying hey, these are, these are resources that allow you to show the kids where we came from, what you know, what, what produced this society we know of as as American exceptionalism.

Mike Peterson

You know, and it's interesting, Rick, because most, most people can acknowledge, recognize that the 10 commandments are the foundation, or a foundational document. I mean, you can't go into the Supreme Court of our country, you can't go into our House of Representatives and not see artwork depicting the great lawgivers, including, including Moses, and so what most folks recognize, that you know, a lot of the push back comes because they they're so confused about. Well, mike, if we do this, we have to have the seven tenets of Satanism. Do we have to have the Quran? And you know so. There was lots of discussions, lots of education on happen to help folks understand how that worked.

Rick Green

Yeah, yeah. Well, how about your colleagues just in the legislature? What was that like?

Mike Peterson

Well. So when I first talked about it three or four months ago, that I had been working on it and I was ready to go, I had several say Mike, you can't do that, that's unconstitutional. And in fact I met with Speaker of the House three weeks ago maybe four weeks ago in his office and he said Mike, thanks so much for what you've done, because three days ago I would have thought what you're doing was unconstitutional. So there was a lot of pushback, even among my own colleagues who thought it was inappropriate that you couldn't do this. And I'll tell you what there were even a few who, after it passed that, asked me please don't ever do this again. Don't ever do a messaging bill like this again. It just makes it too hard which I had to explain. It wasn't a messaging bill. I felt called to help us put the 10 commandments in there and I don't regret what I did.

Rick Green

They basically said hey, man, you're making our job too hard, Wait a minute. You're elected to deal with these issues and the culture is falling apart. We clearly need to be getting back to spring training, getting back to the basics that make the country great in the first place. So I guess, when does it go into effect?

Mike Peterson

So it'll get signed in. The governor could sign it any day now and I think it goes into effect May, the end of May is what would happen, excellent.

Rick Green

So next school year, then it would be in effect.

Mike Peterson

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Rick Green

Yeah, that's great man. You know, every time I see one of these bills I think back to the Supreme Court's Stone V Graham case and the idea that we would ever say as a nation that it's not a good idea to teach kids not to murder, not to steal, not to deceive. It seems like it's just common sense, and I'm assuming that's where some of your conversations went, not only with constituents but colleagues that you know. Look, it's really part of our job to mold citizens that have a healthy respect for these basic values.

Mike Peterson

You know, to be honest, rick, that would come up, but most of the concern was about not functionality, was about have you never read the statement? Separation of church and state.

Rick Green

How did you respond when they'd say have you ever read the Constitution?

Mike Peterson

Well, in fact, I'll tell you what. So when I first you know, I don't know what the process was like for you in your text of legislature, but for us we have a team of the legislative, LRGC, legislative research and general counsel. There are 60 or 70 attorneys that write the bills for us and I put in my request, told them what I wanted, and a few weeks passed and the one that has been assigned to this bill called me and let me know, stammering we'll do it, we do whatever, you're the boss, but it's unconstitutional. And I said, to be honest, I was giggling inside because I've been waiting for this conversation to happen and he said it's unconstitutional.

I asked him so in what way is that? And he said well, are you familiar with the phrase separation of church and state? And I said, actually I am. Do you know where that comes from? And he said no, not really. So I was able to teach it for 30 minutes. So I went off on Thomas Jefferson and the Danbury Baptist and in fact I read him the letter and I sent him a copy of the letter.

And that's what I've done countless times helping people to recognize that, in fact, thomas Jefferson wasn't putting up a wall to prevent you from practicing your religion. He was putting up a wall that the government wouldn't prevent you from practicing your religion, and we need to get back to that. So that's really what the conversations were about the constitutionality, more than the value of it, the 10 commandments themselves.

Rick Green

You know, mike, what you just described.

This is why I love my. You know it's a definition of success that my friend, Nicole Thais, who runs the Family Policy Council out in Delaware, where they're constantly fighting the leftist, and she also runs our Patriot Academy out there you know we learned to define success as advancing truth. And I say that to say, even if you hadn't passed the bill, even if it hadn't passed right, if it wasn't going into effect, those conversations you just described, that's advancing truth. And so even by filing the bill and so on and I hope our legislators that are listening from around the country that are in, you know, bluer states where they feel like I could never get this passed just by filing it, by having the discussions that you had there in Utah, that's advancing truth and it's getting people educated on the truth of the First Amendment and what separation of church and state actually means and that that language is not actually in the all those things that you did, so important to do, and I would think that that was rewarding for you even in the process.

Mike Peterson

You know I you're exactly right and I told my wife numerous times, even if we don't get it passed or would be broken, it's past. I was so grateful and so excited that you know you mentioned the conversations in Utah. But, Rick, I had people around the country reaching out, so so the conversation, the ripples were everywhere. But, by the way, that being of a point I want to make with you, again, I've got a lot of pushback, absolutely, and most I was able to to respond by using history. And but one of the interesting things is some people would send me quotes. You know a little random quote from Thomas Jefferson. You know I can't remember the, the act when they were with the, with the, with the pirates over in the, the Barbary Coast, or they would.

They would bring up these off-the-wall stories. Oh, Jefferson carried a Qur’an with them. Well, they don't know anything about it. So I was able to tell them. You know, I was carrying a Qur’an with them. Do you know why? He said such and such and, and it was awesome to be able to do that. So, in fact, I had somebody on Facebook last week send me a, an Unkind message, and, and it contained a, an image that had four quotes from different, different founders and I asked him, would you please send me the original sources for those quotes? Conversation ended in we've gone a few different times and when I finally asked that the conversation was over. Because they have no response, that they don't. Unfortunately, too many people don't rest, don't, don't rely on original sources. Yeah, they just they just fucking this bubble in this chamber. They just they just keep talking the same things over and over again and don't ever look what wasn't. What did the framers really intend?

Rick Green

Well, I don't. I don't know if you saw it, I had to. I laughed so hard when Rob Reiner went on Joe Scarborough show and just adamantly, he was so Adamant that separation church and state was in the Constitution three times. I mean, just like it's in there three times, so it's. It's not enough to lie about it being in there once. He had to, he had to go to the extreme but it's in there three times. And of course, no one on the panel said, you know, raised a hand, is it? Um, well, I just not in there at all.

Rick Green

No of course they all nodded and said, yeah, yeah, sure it's. I mean they, they, I think they, I think they actually believe it right. I mean they, like you said, they're in this echo chamber and they say it over and over and over again and they believe it. So it's almost like it's a shock whenever someone like you comes in and you start talking about this and then they challenge you and then you show them original sources and they go wow, jaw on the ground

Mike Peterson

Yeah, they thought I was crazy, they thought I was the, the misinformed one, and that was fun to be able to I don't know if fun is right word, something ironic, sometimes they're working good to bring a smile to my face. Yeah, I'll admit what someone would really challenge me and I would be able to say now, which document is that in? Oh, it's in the Constitution or it's in the Declaration. Show me where that is yes, I love it.

Rick Green

I love it oh my what I love it. 

Mike Peterson

Yeah, Rick, you learn from WallBuilders. These last few years and the Founders Bible and all the resources that you folks have has been. I am so grateful for all that you folks have published and made available, because that's really what made it possible, but that's what made me, that's what filled my, my mind with things I could say, so that when it came time, God could remind me I could say them, because otherwise I would have been just going off my heart. Help me have, actual history and words on my side. So I'm so grateful for For you and Dave and Tim and the whole team, because it's it's what got me through this.

Rick Green

Well, we appreciate that man and we're grateful for you, because it takes people like you, willing to take that intellectual ammunition that we provide and use it and actually go out there and stand for truth. You, you, you quite literally did Exactly what a man of Isacar would do. Right, you understand the times and know what to do. So you've got the knowledge, but then you go and do it, and this is just a. It's a great victory For Utah, a good victory for the country, because others will see this and do it in their states, and I'm just looking forward to all the kids in the next, you know, 10, 15, 20 years coming through and and getting exposed to the truth, you know, and getting that foundation so  Mike, God bless you, man! Keep up the great work.

Thanks for all that you're doing.

Mike Peterson

Thank you so much, rick. I really appreciate the time this morning and again appreciate so much all that you've talked with the last few years.

Rick Green

Well, appreciate you coming on the program. Everybody stay with us. We're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back with David and Tim Barton.

Tim Barton

Hey guys, it's Tim Barton and I want to let you know about an opportunity coming up for pastors and ministry leaders. We are doing our annual pastors briefing in Washington DC and we do this every year. We do one in the Spring, we do one in the fall. This spring it's April 16th and 17th. This fall it is September 10th and 11th. This is one of the most significant things we do to encourage and challenge pastors in this culture we live in.

It's in Washington DC and Tuesday night we do an after hours tour of the US Capitol where we introduce pastors and ministry leaders to the history of the nation. The following day we have congressmen come and they give a briefing on what they're doing and how God is challenging and motivating and using them and, frankly, most pastors, most ministry leaders, they don't know the rich spiritual heritage of the nation or what God is still doing moving in the hearts and lives of leaders in this nation. I would encourage you if you're a pastor or ministry leader, you need to come to this. It's one of the best things we do at Wall Builders. To find out more, go to wallbuilders.com and look for the pastors briefing.

Rick Green

Welcome back to Wall Builders. Thanks for staying with us. That was Mike Peterson, state rep from Utah, and another 10 Commandments Bill Pass guys. So we're moving in the right direction.

David Barton

You know that's great news. But I really think great news is how Mike is willing to engage individually with people to change their thinking and change their behavior.

Rick Green

I love that.

David Barton

You know critics and people who want to criticize, and he takes the time to educate them and ask them questions and lead them. And asking questions is one of the best ways to teach people. That's what Jesus did, you know in the gospels. He asked over 300 questions. He did that to lead people to truth, to help them find truth. And I love the fact that Mike is not just pontificating to say, hey, I'm a state rep, do what I say. Hey, let me talk to you about what you believe and can you show me the proof on that? Can you give me evidence? What do you think about that? I think that's great and I think every Christian should do that.

Tim Barton

Well, and that thing too. In my mind, this reiterates some of what I said yesterday with Representative Zachary that God has given us such incredible connections with some of the state legislators, and you know he mentioned he's learned so much his history from WallBuilders, from the Founders, bible, these incredible resources we have, and he is another great example of someone that God has helped us get connected with that we can just teach history and show hey guys, right, one of the most significant things in American education was the Bible. It was the 10 Commandments. This was a foundation, and this is not just us, right, theorizing this. We can go back and actually show the original textbooks because we have this incredible collection and this is one of many things we get to do working with these state legislators, and so I would again encourage people if you want to help wall builders reach out and engage more of these state legislators, you can go online, you can make a donation, help us.

Every November, we have a major conference in Dallas and we have legislators come from all over the nation. Come to this conference and maybe you're in a situation that you really should meet your state legislator, get to know them and then maybe you could even help sponsor them to come, because in so many states state legislators get paid almost nothing in the majority of states. Maybe you're living in a unique state where they make a little money but most do not make money and you might be able to help them come to a conference where they can learn about American history. They can learn about the biblical foundation of the nation that they can learn about constitutional boundaries and parameters and jurisdictions. They can hear from experts from around the nation on major topics that are happening and we can then see positive legislation like this happen and spread throughout the nation.

Rick Green

Thanks again to Mike Peterson for joining us from Utah and thank you for listening today to Wall Builders. Make sure to check out wallbuilders.com today and make sure you're signing up for one of our Constitution classes. Donating there at wallbuilders.com, getting your pastor to a pastor's briefing and just being involved, make a difference. You can be a part of the solution. Again, appreciate you listening to The WallBuilders Show.